Question on Noah's Ark

[Daniel Marsh]

To avoid the funneling effect, it would take multiple humans or whatever within a species to gain all that is needed in the first place to reproduce without serious problems. In fact, I think I once heard the same objection raised for Noah's Ark. That being the limit of people on the Ark would cause a funneling effect of DNA. I do not remember the technical term.

The technical term is often illustrated by a bottleneck of too many people trying to go through the same line or door at the same time at a store.

So, how did the limited number of people on Noah's Ark create enough variation to account for the many variations in the human race scientifically speaking?

This question is assuming evolution is true, and that there was not a special creation which would have all the genes or DNA necessary to produce all the types of dogs that exists today.

Young Earth Creationists would often answer this question by claiming that one pair of dogs on the Ark had all the kinds or types of dogs in their DNA or genes.

Personally, I simply admit that I do not have an answer. And, this is one of the many questions, I have put on the back burner to ask God about when I get to heaven. Since, my mere 170 IQ is no where near that of God, I have no problem waiting for him to answer when I get there.

Note: A local flood position would not have this problem since other humans and animals could survive where there was not a local flood.

 

[John Hyperspace]

my mere 170 IQ

 

[JackRT]

If there was a flood at all about 4300 years ago, it would have had to be local since cultures in Egypt, Babylon, India, China and Japan never noticed it.

 

[Waterwerx]

Since, my mere 170 IQ is no where near that of God, I have no problem waiting for him to answer when I get there

Its not the "funneling effect", but rather the "founder effect", and I think the 170 IQ number is irrelevant so what was the point of mentioning it?

We're never going to find 100% undeniable scientific proof that a world wide flood happened. As for Noah's Ark, I doubt it will ever be found, and even if it is ever found, I doubt it would scientifically be recognized as such. If scientific fact was to be the basis of Christianity, what would be the point of faith?

 

[AV1611VET]

So, how did the limited number of people on Noah's Ark create enough variation to account for the many variations in the human race scientifically speaking?

Don't let anyone buffalo you into thinking that if the Flood was global ... which it was ... we should be a master race.

Obviously there was plenty of time after the Flood for the different peoples to arise, or they wouldn't be here now.

 

[AV1611VET]

As for Noah's Ark, I doubt it will ever be found,

It was probably dismantled to make Noah's homestead.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The 170 IQ statement which is true. My brain injury and stroke only effects my memory --- was to compare how dumb I am compared to God's IQ --- that is if it could be measured.

 

[AV1611VET]

The 170 IQ statement which is true. My brain injury and stroke only effects my memory --- was to compare how dumb I am compared to God's IQ --- that is if it could be measured.

If you go beyond the limit that is attached to us Christians by stigma, you're overstepping your bounds.

Especially if you're homeschooled.

If you're homeschooled and have an IQ above 70 ... keep it to yourself.

If it's below 70, then by all means ... post it.

 

[USincognito]

"Genetic front loading" is impossible in dipoloid reproduction. It simply isn't taken seriously by anyone other than Creationists.

 

[Abraxos]

If there was a flood at all about 4300 years ago, it would have had to be local since cultures in Egypt, Babylon, India, China and Japan never noticed it.

Actually all of those countries/cultures have flood legends with the exception of maybe Japan, which is quite interesting considering Japan is surrounded by water with underwater ruins such as in Yonaguni.

 

[JackRT]

Flood legends are not in the least remarkable since the ending of the last ice age led to massive flooding in many areas all over the world. Sea levels rose about 200 m leading to the flooding for example of the Gulf of Arabia (@10,000 YBP) and the Black Sea Basin (@ 7600 YBP). The latter event is likely the basis of the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Noah Flood.

 

[pitabread]

Actually all of those countries/cultures have flood legends with the exception of maybe Japan, which is quite interesting considering Japan is surrounded by water with underwater ruins such as in Yonaguni.

They may have flood legends, but they weren't wiped out. Per YEC timelines, Noah's Flood would have taken place in the middle of Egypt's 6th Dynasty for example. Oddly enough the Egyptian civilization continued unabated...

 

[AV1611VET]

The latter event is likely the basis of the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Noah Flood.

That's like saying your grandson drove your parents to the hospital the night you were born.

 

[USincognito]

Actually all of those countries/cultures have flood legends with the exception of maybe Japan, which is quite interesting considering Japan is surrounded by water with underwater ruins such as in Yonaguni.

Those are natural formations.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

To avoid the funneling effect, it would take multiple humans or whatever within a species to gain all that is needed in the first place to reproduce without serious problems. In fact, I think I once heard the same objection raised for Noah's Ark. That being the limit of people on the Ark would cause a funneling effect of DNA. I do not remember the technical term.

It's called a genetic bottleneck and it is already apparant when population sizes drop to a few thousand individuals. It would be EXTREMELY apparant if it drops to a mere 8 - when 3 of which are even siblings.

So, how did the limited number of people on Noah's Ark create enough variation to account for the many variations in the human race scientifically speaking?

Biologically/genetically/physically... they couldn't. Evolution can't accomplish that in such a short period of time.

This question is assuming evolution is true, and that there was not a special creation which would have all the genes or DNA necessary to produce all the types of dogs that exists today.

If you are going to assume that evolution is true as well as that the mythical flood happened... Then you are talking about a speed rate of evolution that is thousands of times faster then what is currently understood, observed and what ALL the evidence suggests.
A rate SO fast, that we would have to see no less then about 16 new species every single day, from the time of Noah till today.

Even "rapid" or "accelerated" evolution in punctuated equilibrium, like what happened during the cambrian explosion, still requires geological timeframes of millions of years.
So... just about ALL data that we know about, suggests that your assumption is about as wrong as can be... It's a margin of error similar to saying that the US is only a few feet long from coast to coast.

Young Earth Creationists would often answer this question by claiming that one pair of dogs on the Ark had all the kinds or types of dogs in their DNA or genes.

Which is about as ignorant as it gets.

Personally, I simply admit that I do not have an answer. And, this is one of the many questions, I have put on the back burner to ask God about when I get to heaven.

Or... alternatively... you could just follow the evidence, which shows how a worldview including a global flood and MASSIVE population reduction in ALL living things only a few millenia ago, is about as untenable as claiming that the earth is flat or that the sun orbits the earth instead of the other way round....

Since, my mere 170 IQ

Riiiiight.

Note: A local flood position would not have this problem since other humans and animals could survive where there was not a local flood.

A local flood would also have no need for any supernatural shenannigans. As local floods happen all the time quite naturally.

 

[AirPo]

That's like saying your grandson drove your parents to the hospital the night you were born.

No it's not.

 

[AirPo]

Its not the "funneling effect", but rather the "founder effect", and I think the 170 IQ number is irrelevant so what was the point of mentioning it?

We're never going to find 100% undeniable scientific proof that a world wide flood happened. As for Noah's Ark, I doubt it will ever be found, and even if it is ever found, I doubt it would scientifically be recognized as such. If scientific fact was to be the basis of Christianity, what would be the point of faith?

Considering we have 100% undeniable scientific proof that a world wide flood did not happened, that we're not going to find any is a given.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We're never going to find 100% undeniable scientific proof that a world wide flood happened.

That's actually false...
Science can't prove to you what is certainly correct. But it CAN prove what is certainly wrong.

A global flood (at any time in history) is one of those things.
Such a global flood, makes loads of testable predictions.

Not a single one of the predictions tests succesfully. All of them are utter failures.
So, yes... science most certainly has proven that this specific event has never happened.
In a multitude of ways, from various angles. The best ones being genetics (no bottlenecks) and geology (no global flood deposits).

If scientific fact was to be the basis of Christianity, what would be the point of faith?

You certainly can repeat that again.

Indeed... "faith" is what you require when you don't have scientific facts to support your beliefs.

You should reflect on that.

 

[AV1611VET]

No it's not.

You're right.

It's more like saying your son (not your grandson) drove your parents to the hospital the night you were born; since the Egyptians came from Mizraim.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

 

[AV1611VET]

Considering we have 100% undeniable scientific proof that a world wide flood did not happened,

You mean didn't happen naturally?

Musta been a miracle then.

... that we're not going to find any is a given.

That's because science is myopic.