DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
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Wow... That's... big...
The Matthew quote says the bodies of the dead arose. It doesn't say anything about those bodies being animated by the lives of their original owners, does it?
Yep - it doesn't say that they came back to life - it says "many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose". We know that Christ is the "firstfruits of them that slept" and "Christ, the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" is regarding the resurrection.
In verse 51, we read "and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;". Now when I think of these verses (51-53) all together I can see how the graves opened up and the bodies were expelled from their graves and the dead bodies appeared due to the earthquake. Living in Louisiana - I can see an earthquake causing such a thing to happen with the appearance of dead bodies floating in the many lakes and bayous around here.
Anyway that's just my thoughts on the subject!
Yep - it doesn't say that they came back to life - it says "many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose". We know that Christ is the "firstfruits of them that slept" and "Christ, the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" is regarding the resurrection.
In verse 51, we read "and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;". Now when I think of these verses (51-53) all together I can see how the graves opened up and the bodies were expelled from their graves and the dead bodies appeared due to the earthquake. Living in Louisiana - I can see an earthquake causing such a thing to happen with the appearance of dead bodies floating in the many lakes and bayous around here.
Anyway that's just my thoughts on the subject!
I can see how the graves opened up and the bodies were expelled from their graves and the dead bodies appeared due to the earthquake.
Dead bodies can't get up and walk around, I agree with you there.
However, you seem to think these bodies got up and walked around.
I'm not seeing that in the text.
It says that these bodies (notice, not people, but just bodies) went into the city and appeared to many.
It doesn't say anything about them getting there by walking.
I looked at the Greek. It also doesn't mandate that they were walking.
It would seem audiences of the text must have just assumed that part.
Almost as if they felt comfortable just making it up.
therefore these risen saints, are said to go into it:
and appeared unto many[SIZE=+1]; of their friends and acquaintance, who had personally known them, and conversed with them in their lifetime. These saints, I apprehend, continued on earth until our Lord's ascension, and then joining the retinue of angels, went triumphantly with him to heaven, as trophies of his victory over sin, Satan, death, and the grave.[/SIZE]
You forgot to read the very next verse:
"And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (vs. 53)
An earthquake may expell bodies from the grave. Katrina washed many bodies from their graves.
However:
"dead bodies" cannot get up, and walk around for those "dead bodies" went into the city "and appeared to many."
If an earthquake merely "expelled" them from the graves as you say, how did they go into the Holy city?
Also, notice that the Greek word here in verse 53: "εἰσῆλθον" is defined as 2 Aorest Active, 3rd person plural. Greek tenses indicate not only time of action, but more especially kind of action. And the action here, is not on the time, but the kind, they arose, and went into the city.
God Bless
Till all are one.
therefore these risen saints, are said to go into it:
and appeared unto many[SIZE=+1]; of their friends and acquaintance, who had personally known them, and conversed with them in their lifetime. These saints, I apprehend, continued on earth until our Lord's ascension, and then joining the retinue of angels, went triumphantly with him to heaven, as trophies of his victory over sin, Satan, death, and the grave.[/SIZE]
I know your not going to accept it, but:
John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.
You know what, you don't want to believe that they "walked" or perhaps "glided" over the ground and went into the city, fine, makes no difference to me.
I can see where this is going, and I want no part of it.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Cubinity, Your logic is not logic at all: your view of these verses appears to be blurred, and obscure. How do you think these bodies (went) into Jerusalem? Of course they were alive. To deny this is to deny Jesus being raised from the dead, and walking on the road to Emmaus, after He was raised from His sleep.
The Greek for "Went," here means to come into, to enter, as of persons. Sure they were dead, their spirit had left them, they were corpses. Now by the power of God, they were awakened, the spirit which never dies was reunited with their flesh.
So what does the word arose mean? Here is how it is used in other verses.
Matt.27:52, "The saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Compare with the Greek, and Hebrew for "arose, raise, raised, is used in the following verses.
Dan.12:2, All who are found in the book of life, "Them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (arose,) some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
John 5:21, "For as the Father raiseth up the dead. and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." They arose.
Acts 26:8, "God should raise the dead." these will be brought back to life.
1 Cor.15:15-16. 2 Cor.1:9. Also to raise from the dead, and Mid. seq. to rise from the dead; John 12:1, "Whom He raised from the dead." John 12:9-17. Gal.1:1. 1 Thes.1:10. Mid. seq. Matt. 14:2, 27:6, 28:7. Seq. "From among," Mark 6:14-16.
So are you denying the power of God? or is it the resurrection of the dead? or is it the hope of every living Christian that will sleep (meaning to die) as these saints had in Matt.27:52-53? Are you also denying the resurrection of the dead in, 1 Then.4:16, "The dead in Christ shall rise first."
And don't give me your one line about not believing me, because personally, "I don't care if you do or don't."
Phil LaSpino
Actually, one translation does say were raised to life.
52The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [a]in death were raised [to life]; Amplified
I think that if were meant to be were shaken out of the ground, or as some have said were washed out of the ground, it would have been written as such. But the scriptures tell us when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him. It was a testimony to the power over death, hell and the grave for the saints.
Having said that, they went into the holy city, would be kinda hard to say they were carried in a wagon, or were washed there by water or even vibrated there by the quake, seeing as they only came out of the tomb after Jesus was raised. The quake had been three days earlier.
God bless
Mt. 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mt. 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mt. 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Mt. 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
Of course those saints' bodies arose alive, just like Jesus arose and like the maid arose alive.
Of course that's the logical assumption if you have the other (unrelated) verses in mind.
However, that assumption doesn't make the text say anything other than what it says. In this case, the text does not say they were alive, no matter how obvious that may seem to you and I. It just doesn't say it.
Why is that one point so difficult to agree upon?
Okay, let's reverse it. Dead bodies somehow floated from outside the city, out from inside carved out rock sepulchers, into the city, and defiled everyone and everything (can't touch a dead body, ya'know) in their path.
So, what's the point of that again? The earth is spitting out dead bodies because ... Matthew writing to the Jews mentions this because ...
I see. If I can follow your logic as to a reason an author might be describing events, I might come to see why it makes sense that you and I have come to the logical conclusions we have.
The problem with this attempt is that I have already admitted to not only understanding why you've made the assumptions you have, but also that I agree with those assumptions.
The point I am making, however, is that they are still assumptions. The bodies are in the text. The bodies rising from the graves is in the text. The bodies entering the city is in the text. The bodies being living, breathing people, is not in the text.
Thus, it doesn't matter to my point in the least why I think Matthew wrote it. I still feel an obligation to be honest to what he wrote.
Why is that so unreasonable?
No, the scriptures in question do not tell us that "when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him".Actually, one translation does say were raised to life.
52The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [a]in death were raised [to life]; Amplified
I think that if were meant to be were shaken out of the ground, or as some have said were washed out of the ground, it would have been written as such. But the scriptures tell us when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him. It was a testimony to the power over death, hell and the grave for the saints.
Having said that, they went into the holy city, would be kinda hard to say they were carried in a wagon, or were washed there by water or even vibrated there by the quake, seeing as they only came out of the tomb after Jesus was raised. The quake had been three days earlier.
God bless
No, the scriptures in question do not tell us that "when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him".
The quake had been three days earlier?
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain form the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and the rocks rent; Matthew 27:50,51
There is three days in there? By the above record, he had just died.
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