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Yes I do...but gimme some time.hmmm, this is interesting. Do you happen to have any writings from the Church Fathers on this theology?
My thoughts, which could very well be wrong are this: "Cut off" not from the presence of God, but from the unifying grace of God that penetrates His Church.Also, what are your thoughts on this passage;
"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but Gods kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22)
Can there really be a place in which God is not present?Does this not suggest that losing one's salvation entails separation? in essence, eternal separation from God?
Nothing to forgive. I like talking with you. I'm curious to learn more about Orthodoxy too.Please forgive me again, as I do not intend to debate. I just am curious to learn more about Orthodoxy.
Right on. I have this quote written down from St. Maximos the Confessor:Rilian said:What Hell or Heaven is then would not be our physical location in regards to God, but what our experience of God is. I don't see these states as fixed at the time of death, and I don't see any reason to think our movement to or from God ends when our earthly life does.
What Hell or Heaven is then would not be our physical location in regards to God, but what our experience of God is.
I believe there could be, if God so chooses.Can there really be a place in which God is not present?
But then it couldn't be eternal or truly existant. What truly exists is true because of it's being in the Holy Trinity. Certainly had Christ not been incarnated and saved the race of man, we would have remained in a place seperate from God, and been lost to non-existance, because there we would remain seperated from our body, and therefore not truly human. But He has given us true existance, and He has given it to all equally. That eternal being though, will be ever well-being for some, and ever ill-being for others. He has bestowed this gift (the general resurrection) on the race of man, but not all will have the capacity to receive it as He intends.Rising_Suns said:I believe there could be, if God so chooses.
Rising_Suns said:
Yes, this does not differ from Catholic Theology. Saint Therese once said so simply; "all the way to heaven is heaven."
I believe there could be, if God so chooses.
Hi heather,Photini said:But then it couldn't be eternal or truly existant. What truly exists is true because of it's being in the Holy Trinity. Certainly had Christ not been incarnated and saved the race of man, we would have remained in a place seperate from God, and been lost to non-existance, because there we would remain seperated from our body, and therefore not truly human. But He has given us true existance, and He has given it to all equally. That eternal being though, will be ever well-being for some, and ever ill-being for others. He has bestowed this gift (the general resurrection) on the race of man, but not all will have the capacity to receive it as He intends.
No I definitely don't disagree with that. It's getting late and I'm getting fuzzy...so my wording surely is lacking. After this post, I'm hittin the hay.Rising_Suns said:The Catholic Church distinctly points out that God despises all that is evil, and there exists none in Him. If hell is not eternal separation from God, then it must be the eternal embodiment of God. It is either one or the other; there are no in between's.
I don't believe you would disagree with that though. Maybe we are not connecting in our wording. Semantics has always been a source of miscommunication between Church's; saying two distinct things that are the same.
The evil which is Hell only exists from the human point of view.St John of Damascus said:but the word 'evil(6)' is used in two ways, with two meanings. For sometimes it means what is evil by nature, and this is the opposite of virtue and the will of God: and sometimes it means that which is evil and oppressive to our sensation, that is to say, afflictions and calamities.
You say seperation from God, while I say it's not seperation, but alienation, which is an inability to participate.
Photini said:In Orthodoxy, Hell is not considered an actual seperation from God....But God Himself is Paradise for the saints and God Himself is Hell for the sinners. The energy of God will fall on us all, we will be showered in His love, which is likened to fire.
Rising_Suns said:hmmm, this is interesting. Do you happen to have any writings from the Church Fathers on this theology?
Isaiah 33 said:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
Rising_Suns said:Forgive me, but you seem to almost be saying that God not only embodies all that is good, but all that is evil as well. Atleast, that is the conclusion I am being led to in your train of thought. The Catholic Church distinctly points out that God despises all that is evil, and there exists none in Him. If hell is not eternal separation from God, then it must be the eternal embodiment of God. It is either one or the other; there are no in between's.
Isaiah 10 said:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
I have not read what is said on the website, but I do know this is a slight divergence/misinterpretation of Catholic doctrine. The fire of purification is indeed from God, and He makes us aware of those sins that we have carried unto death while He removes them from us; in that we suffer. But in their visions from God, the Saints have revealed that the primary suffering of souls in purgatory is their longing for God; yet every moment that goes by, their joy increases as they get closer to full union with Him.Sergius_Lucius said:The article on a Russian Catholic site says that the fire of purgatory is the sorrow of the soul that it can't see God yet, rather than the punishment for sins.
Do Catholics believe that it is God's grace that purifies souls in purgatory? If not it would look like people make themselves worthy of Heaven by their own efforts.
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