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Rilian

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The western view does not make a lot of sense to me. It seems to envision Heaven and Hell as physical places, either in the sky or below the earth. Purgatory then seems to be a middling place somewhere in between. This conception seems to owe a lot to Dante. What seems truly bizarre about this is that there would be a place where God isn't present, or where we must be purified in before coming into his presence. God to me is omnipresent. What Hell or Heaven is then would not be our physical location in regards to God, but what our experience of God is. I don't see these states as fixed at the time of death, and I don't see any reason to think our movement to or from God ends when our earthly life does. That's why I think we continue to offer prayer for those who have gone on before us.

St. Gregory of Nyssa who Photini already mentioned talked about the purifying effects of fire, he seemed to believe that Hell could in fact be a purifying experience for those willing to pass through it. I believe some other fathers such as Gregory the Theologian and Clement of Alexandria shared this view, but that like the toll houses is not official doctrine.

Somebody posted this helpful link the other day - Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife, According to the Bible
 
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Photini

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hmmm, this is interesting. Do you happen to have any writings from the Church Fathers on this theology?
Yes I do...but gimme some time.
Also, what are your thoughts on this passage;

"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22)
My thoughts, which could very well be wrong are this: "Cut off" not from the presence of God, but from the unifying grace of God that penetrates His Church.

Does this not suggest that losing one's salvation entails separation? in essence, eternal separation from God?
Can there really be a place in which God is not present?
My favorite Psalm is this one:

"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, 'Surely the darkness shall fall on me,' Even the night shall be light about me,
Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You."

Psalm 139: 7-12



Please forgive me again, as I do not intend to debate. I just am curious to learn more about Orthodoxy.
Nothing to forgive. I like talking with you. I'm curious to learn more about Orthodoxy too. :)
 
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Photini

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Rilian said:
What Hell or Heaven is then would not be our physical location in regards to God, but what our experience of God is. I don't see these states as fixed at the time of death, and I don't see any reason to think our movement to or from God ends when our earthly life does.
Right on. I have this quote written down from St. Maximos the Confessor:

"...around which the nous, moving unendingly and infallibly, never has an end to its motion, not finding a termination to which there is no distance.." Meaning that our "nous" which is in constant motion can not find an end on its ascent toward God, "because that which has no dimensions and what cannot be understood cannot be finished." We will be in a state of continual revelation.
 
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Rising_Suns

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What Hell or Heaven is then would not be our physical location in regards to God, but what our experience of God is.

Yes, this does not differ from Catholic Theology. Saint Therese once said so simply; "all the way to heaven is heaven."

Can there really be a place in which God is not present?
I believe there could be, if God so chooses.
 
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Photini

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Rising_Suns said:
I believe there could be, if God so chooses.
But then it couldn't be eternal or truly existant. What truly exists is true because of it's being in the Holy Trinity. Certainly had Christ not been incarnated and saved the race of man, we would have remained in a place seperate from God, and been lost to non-existance, because there we would remain seperated from our body, and therefore not truly human. But He has given us true existance, and He has given it to all equally. That eternal being though, will be ever well-being for some, and ever ill-being for others. He has bestowed this gift (the general resurrection) on the race of man, but not all will have the capacity to receive it as He intends.
 
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Rilian

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Rising_Suns said:


Yes, this does not differ from Catholic Theology. Saint Therese once said so simply; "all the way to heaven is heaven."

Okay, I'll admit I'm not that familiar with the Catholic understanding. Having said that though, the language I've seen employed does seem to imply a spatial understanding and does remind me a lot of the Neo-Platonsim that Aquinas loved so much. The mechanics of Purgatory especially seem to suggest a state apart from God.

I believe there could be, if God so chooses.

To me God's omnipotence precludes logical violations, which the idea of God creating a space where he is not present would seem to bring about given the very nature of what God is. This is kind of one of those "can God create a stone too heavy for him to lift" arguments though, so it's probably best left alone.

Thanks for the Maximos quote Photini. I've taken a liking to him recently.
 
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Rising_Suns

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Photini said:
But then it couldn't be eternal or truly existant. What truly exists is true because of it's being in the Holy Trinity. Certainly had Christ not been incarnated and saved the race of man, we would have remained in a place seperate from God, and been lost to non-existance, because there we would remain seperated from our body, and therefore not truly human. But He has given us true existance, and He has given it to all equally. That eternal being though, will be ever well-being for some, and ever ill-being for others. He has bestowed this gift (the general resurrection) on the race of man, but not all will have the capacity to receive it as He intends.
Hi heather,
Forgive me, but you seem to almost be saying that God not only embodies all that is good, but all that is evil as well. Atleast, that is the conclusion I am being led to in your train of thought. The Catholic Church distinctly points out that God despises all that is evil, and there exists none in Him. If hell is not eternal separation from God, then it must be the eternal embodiment of God. It is either one or the other; there are no in between's.

I don't believe you would disagree with that though. Maybe we are not connecting in our wording. Semantics has always been a source of miscommunication between Church's; saying two distinct things that are the same.
 
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Photini

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Rising_Suns said:
The Catholic Church distinctly points out that God despises all that is evil, and there exists none in Him. If hell is not eternal separation from God, then it must be the eternal embodiment of God. It is either one or the other; there are no in between's.

I don't believe you would disagree with that though. Maybe we are not connecting in our wording. Semantics has always been a source of miscommunication between Church's; saying two distinct things that are the same.
No I definitely don't disagree with that. It's getting late and I'm getting fuzzy...so my wording surely is lacking. After this post, I'm hittin the hay.

St John of Damascus in his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith mentions this:

St John of Damascus said:
but the word 'evil(6)' is used in two ways, with two meanings. For sometimes it means what is evil by nature, and this is the opposite of virtue and the will of God: and sometimes it means that which is evil and oppressive to our sensation, that is to say, afflictions and calamities.
The evil which is Hell only exists from the human point of view.

You say seperation from God, while I say it's not seperation, but alienation, which is an inability to participate.
 
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Rising_Suns

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You say seperation from God, while I say it's not seperation, but alienation, which is an inability to participate.

aha! once again we find the evil culprit named "mr. Semantics" hiding behind door #1. The title of his next book; "how to create more division and animosity".



...ok it's getting late, i'm going to bed too. :)
 
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Sergius_Lucius

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Hello, everybody!

Photini said:
In Orthodoxy, Hell is not considered an actual seperation from God....But God Himself is Paradise for the saints and God Himself is Hell for the sinners. The energy of God will fall on us all, we will be showered in His love, which is likened to fire.

Rising_Suns said:
hmmm, this is interesting. Do you happen to have any writings from the Church Fathers on this theology?

What about this:

Isaiah 33 said:
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
 
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Photini

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Wonderful Sergey!

"God is the sun of justice, as it is written, who shines rays of goodness on simply everyone. The soul develops according to its free will into either wax because of its love for God or into mud because of its love of matter. Thus just as by nature the mud is dried out by the sun and the wax is automatically softened, so also every woul which loves matter and the world and has fixed its mind far from God is nardened as mud according to its free will and by itself advances to its perdition, as did Pharoah. However, every soul which loves God is softened as wax, and receiving divine impressions and characters it becomes the dwelling place of God in the Spirit (Eph. 2:22)." ~St. Maximos the Confessor, Chapters on Knowledge I:12

"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." (1 Cor. 15:28) There will no place to hide from His presence. His presence will be heaven or hell.


I do have a question though about purgatory, Dave, or any other that might know. St Mark of Ephesus refuted purgatory as understood by the Latins in the false Council of Florence. It seems to me, that the concept of purgatory was then pretty well defined, and St. Mark's arguments refuting it are very specific. I have seen several Catholics here assert that Purgatory is not exactly defined by the RCC. Has the teaching on purgatory remained the same in the RCC now as it was when St Mark opposed it?
 
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Photini

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ooooohhh...Read this, which isn't immediately related to what we've been discussing, but somewhat related nonetheless. And how beautiful! From St. Symeon the New Theologian...

"That the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Rom 3:21)

What Is the Bright Condition the Whole Creation is Again to Receive?

You should know likewise what is to be the glory and the brightly shining state of the creation in the future age. For when it will be renewed, it will not again be the same as it was when it was created in the beginning. But it will be such as, according to the world of the divine Paul, our body will also be. Concerning our body the Apostle says: It is sown a natural body, but is raised not as the body of the first-created one was before the transgression of the commandment, that is, material, sensuous, changeable, having need of sensuous food, but it is raised a spriitual body (1 Cor 15:44) and unchanging, such as was the body of our Lord Jesus Christ, the second Adam, after the Resurrection, He being the first-born from among the dead, which body was incomparably superior to the body of first-created Adam. In the same way also the whole creation, according to the commandment of God, is to be, after the general resurrection, not such as it was created, material and sensuous, but it is to be re-created and to become a certain immaterial and spiritual dwelling, surpassing every sense, and as the Apostle says of us, We shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 COr 15:51). Thus also the whole creation, after it shall burn up in the Divine fire, is to be changed, that there may be fulfilled also the prophecy of David who says that the righteous shall inherit the earth (Ps 36:29)--of course, not the sensuous earth. For how is it possible that those who have become spiritual will inherit a sensuous earth? No, they will inherit a spiritual and immaterial earth, so as to have on it a swelling worthy of their glory after they shall be vouchsafed to receive bodies that are bodiless and above every sense.

Thus the whole creation, after it will be renewed and become spiritual, will become a dwelling which is immaterial, incorruptible, unchanging, and eternal. The heaven will become incomparably more brilliant and bright than it appears now; it will become completely new. The earth will receive a new, unutterable beauty, being clothed in many-formed, unfading flowers, bright and spiritual. The sun will shine seven times more powerfully than now, and the whole world will become more perfect than any word can describe. Having become spiritual and divine, it will become united with the noetic world; it will be a certain mental Paradise, a heavenly Jerusalem, the inalienable inheritance of the sons of God. Such an earth has not been interited as yet by a single man; we are all strangers and foreigners. But when the earthly will be united with the heavenly, then also the righteous will inherit that already-renewed earth whose inheritors are to be those meek ones who are blessed by the Lord.

Now, for the time being, some of the earthly is being united with heavenly, and some is yet to be united with it. The souls of the saints, as we have said, even though they are still united with the body in the world, are united with the grace of the Holy Spirit, are renewed, are changed for the better and resurrected from mental death. Later, after seperation from the body, they will depart into glory and into the unsetting, brightly shining light. THeir bodies, however, are not yet vouchsafed this, but remain in the tombs and in corruption. But they also are to become incorruptible during the genreal resurrection, when also all this visible and senuous creation will become incorruptible, and will be united with the heavenly and invisible. This must happen first, and then there will come with power and great glory the most desired and sweetest Jesus Christ, our King and God, to judge the world and to give to each according to his deeds. For this He will divide the renewed creation into many mansions and abodes, as if it were a great house or some kind of royal palace with a multitude of various apartments, and He will give to each his part, according to the brightness and glory acquired by his virtues. Thus, the Kingdom of Heaven will be one, will have a single King over all, Who will be visible from everywhere to all the righteous. He will remain with each of the righteous, and each of the righteous will remain with Him; He will brightly shine in each one, and each one will brightly shine in Him. But woe to those who will be seen to be outside that heavenly dwelling!
 
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Rilian

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Rising_Suns said:
Forgive me, but you seem to almost be saying that God not only embodies all that is good, but all that is evil as well. Atleast, that is the conclusion I am being led to in your train of thought. The Catholic Church distinctly points out that God despises all that is evil, and there exists none in Him. If hell is not eternal separation from God, then it must be the eternal embodiment of God. It is either one or the other; there are no in between's.

What God embodies though doesn't seem to be in question, his essence is something we will never reach into. Heaven and Hell I think are just propositional ways of stating what our place is in relation to God. We are always in the presence of God; the sun shines on the wicked, the righteous and everyone in between. It is our reaction to that presence which is the question. We may turn our back on God, but he never goes away.

Aquinas in his Summa said something along the lines of the torments of the damned will be the delights of the saved. Namely that the saints will be permitted to view what is going on in Hell and it will only make the experience of the saved even better. That puts God in the position of embodying evil to me. I think that is the death of hope. God creates a Hell, casts people into it and makes it a source of voyeuristic inspiration for others. I believe Hell can be eternal if we choose to make it so, but I don't think God or anyone else should view this as something to rejoice in. I like the words of St. Silouan the Athonite who said

Every one who has strayed from the truth brings destruction on himself and is therefore to be pitied. But of course the man who has not learned the love of the Holy Spirit will not pray for his enemies. The man who has learned love from the Holy Spirit sorrows all his life over those who are not saved, and sheds abundant tears for the people, and the grace of God gives him strength to love his enemies.
 
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Sergius_Lucius

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Thanks, Photini :) This isn't of course my discovery, I've found this quoting in Orthodox Doctrine of Salvation by Patr. Sergius (Stragorodsky).

and also this:
Isaiah 10 said:
17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
 
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Sergius_Lucius

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The article on a Russian Catholic site says that the fire of purgatory is the sorrow of the soul that it can't see God yet, rather than the punishment for sins.

Do Catholics believe that it is God's grace that purifies souls in purgatory? If not it would look like people make themselves worthy of Heaven by their own efforts.
 
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1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[604] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[605] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[606]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."[607] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[608] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[609]

-From the CCC
 
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Rising_Suns

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Sergius_Lucius said:
The article on a Russian Catholic site says that the fire of purgatory is the sorrow of the soul that it can't see God yet, rather than the punishment for sins.

Do Catholics believe that it is God's grace that purifies souls in purgatory? If not it would look like people make themselves worthy of Heaven by their own efforts.
I have not read what is said on the website, but I do know this is a slight divergence/misinterpretation of Catholic doctrine. The fire of purification is indeed from God, and He makes us aware of those sins that we have carried unto death while He removes them from us; in that we suffer. But in their visions from God, the Saints have revealed that the primary suffering of souls in purgatory is their longing for God; yet every moment that goes by, their joy increases as they get closer to full union with Him.
 
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