Question on Falling from Grace

[A New Dawn]

Of course it is God who decides who will be saved. And He has decided that He will save ONLY believers. The real issue is that the Calvinist doctrine of election logically concludes that God chooses who will believe, which is a different issue. There is no Scripture that teaches that God chooses who will believe.

btw, when people hear the gospel and place their faith in Christ, they are not "deciding to be saved". They are deciding to believe that Jesus will save them. I hope this clarifies the issue.

You are still putting the cart before the horse. If God only saved believers, then it is the choice of the believer to believe and, voila, he will be saved. That takes the decision out of God's hand. No, God's choice, He turns the heart of the sinner and gifts them faith and they are saved. All of God, none of us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Of course it is God who decides who will be saved. And He has decided that He will save ONLY believers."

That's not to decide who will be saved. It's to leave it completely open.

I don't understand either statement. What is "not to decide". And to leave what open?

If there is disagreement with either or both of my statements, then please address and refute them from Scripture.

There are many verses that teach this; and frankly, it's a bit insulting for opponents--no matter what the doctrinal issue may be--simply to dismiss all contrary Scriptural evidence with a "there is no Scripture...." statement.

If that were true, then I've given the MOST EASY way to totally refute my statements; provide a verse that actually says what is being claimed.

When I say there is no Scripture, I mean I'm unaware of any. So educate me with verses that actually do say what is being claimed.

I think the real problem, though, is that verses will be presented that "seem to mean" what is being claimed. Which is not the same as actually saying what is claimed.

Deal with the proof texts that "Calvinists" present, if you can, but please don't think refusing to do so resolves the issue.

I do deal with verses that are presented. And I point out what they actually say, which isn't what is being claimed about them.

btw, I provide verses that actually do say what I claim. And I see very few attempts at refutation of them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are still putting the cart before the horse. If God only saved believers, then it is the choice of the believer to believe and, voila, he will be saved.

How about that!! Finally catching on!! Exactly! The one who believes does so freely, not because chose him to believe.

That takes the decision out of God's hand.

OK, let's be a bit more clear here. Takes the decision to WHAT out of God's hand? Does this refer to the decision of the person to believe, or the decision of God to save? Please clarify.

No, God's choice, He turns the heart of the sinner and gifts them faith and they are saved. All of God, none of us.

And since all of this was decided before the foundation of the world, there is NO NEED to evangelize then. What a strange view.

How come Calvinists seem not to realize that if God chose who will believe, and He chose them before the world began, then it's already a done deal. Can't be changed. So that EFFECTIVELY eliminates any need for evangelism.

Those who God chooses to believe have no choice. They WILL believe, right? Regardless of anything else.

Oh, except the Bible does not teach that God chooses who will believe.

 

[Jesus First]

Not so "clearly". What is clear is that eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

The gift of God is eternal life. But this gift comes progressively as believers yield to Christ in obedient faith. Consider Romans 3:22 and 3:24:

"the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe" [not "believed", but "believe" in the present]. (Romans 3:22).

"and are justified [an ongoing action] by his grace as a gift [not a one-time, love your sin (optional) gift], through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24)

Your claim that "God's gifts are irrevocable" describes salvation is extremely uncontextual. Some cults could surely interpret Scripture better. Not one respected theologian would make such an outrageous claim for the context of Romans 11:29. Paul was writing about the nation of Israel. The fact that words have a range of meaning as defined by context is grammar 101.

Unfortunately, my explanation of what saving faith is was either ignored or misunderstood.

That's precisely the problem. The Bible is/or should be the authority for faith and practice—not a Free Grace Theology overlay.

Free grace theology is closer to the Bible than any other theology.

The truth is not found in any theological system. But in God's Word. I'm very familiar with Free Grace Theology. The one-time easy belief that is promoted isn't supported contextually, nor grammatically. The "no repentance from sin necessity" for salvation is a perversion of the New Testament faith. One can come to Jesus in love with their sin, exercise a one-time, action-less faith and go on to greater sins in the name of grace. This gospel is a substitute for the real Gospel of Jesus Christ were ongoing faith is required.

Satan loves theological systems such as Free Grace Theology when they allege believers can optionally live "the wages of sin" and Free Grace Theology promises them eternal life. In contrast, New Testament Christianity had new believers added daily to the church. Paul and the author of Hebrews believed "the just will live by faith" (Romans 1:17; Hebrews 10:38). Free Grace Theology teaches that the just don't have to live by faith (optional). They can live in the cesspool of sin and only lose rewards.

Free Grace Theology loves passages like John 3:16 where the word "believes" (Koine Greek, present tense participle; ongoing requirement here) is hollowed out and replaced with a one-time imitation belief as a "hell fire insurance policy" to Satan's delight.

I don't question your sincerity. You may be in love with Jesus Christ. But the easy belief that your theology promotes lands many in hell as Satan promises that they won't die (just like the Garden of Eden)

 

[Anonymous]

The gift of God is eternal life. But this gift comes progressively as believers yield to Christ in obedient faith. Consider Romans 3:22 and 3:24:

"the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe" [not "believed", but "believe" in the present]. (Romans 3:22).

Neither verse teaches "progressive eternal life".

Your claim that "God's gifts are irrevocable" describes salvation is extremely uncontextual.

It is totally contextual. That's precisely how Paul defined "gifts of God": justification and eternal life. Nothing else.

Some cults could surely interpret Scripture better. Not one respected theologian would make such an outrageous claim for the context of Romans 11:29. Paul was writing about the nation of Israel. The fact that words have a range of meaning as defined by context is grammar 101.

One more time: Paul is the one who already defined "gifts of God". We don't get that privilege. Nor do we get to make up stuff.

Free Grace Theology loves passages like John 3:16

So, I must presume that your theology hates that verse?

I don't question your sincerity. You may be in love with Jesus Christ. But the easy belief that your theology promotes lands many in hell as Satan promises that they won't die (just like the Garden of Eden)

The error in your claims is conflating getting saved with living the Christian life. They are different issues. Conflating them into one big ball of wax only muddies the water completely.

 

[A New Dawn]

Oh, except the Bible does not teach that God chooses who will believe.

Oh, except John 6 and 2 Thess. 2 and then there's Romans 5 that tells us that, while we were yet sinners (unbelievers), Christ died for us, and then there is Romans 3 that tells us there are none who are righteous, none that seek after God, none that understand.

So, I am sure that, despite what a clear reading of these passages tell us, you will find a way to dismiss what they clearly say regarding the fact that before God enters our lives and gifts us with faith, none of us have the capacity to do what you so clearly suggest - Come up with saving faith on our own.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, except John 6 and 2 Thess. 2 and then there's Romans 5 that tells us that, while we were yet sinners (unbelievers), Christ died for us, and then there is Romans 3 that tells us there are none who are righteous, none that seek after God, none that understand.

These don't say that God chooses who will believe.

So, I am sure that, despite what a clear reading of these passages tell us

What you should be sure of, is that God doesn't choose who will believe. Such a view reduces mankind to puppets.

you will find a way to dismiss what they clearly say regarding the fact that before God enters our lives and gifts us with faith, none of us have the capacity to do what you so clearly suggest - Come up with saving faith on our own.

Lots of misunderstanding here!! First, there was no list of actual verses, just mention of some chapters in several books. One must do better than that in trying to defend their own position. If there are actual verses that SAY that God chooses who will believe, then just cite them at least.

Second, the word "faith" is a noun. Not a verb. To have faith is to have something. It's not an action. And, yes, we can consider our faith (what we believe to be true in Scripture) to be a gift from God. It's called the "Christian faith". And it comes from God. No man made it up.

The term "saving faith" simply refers to that which must be believed to be saved. Salvation is obtained when one believes in Christ.

So, we cannot come with "saving faith" on our own, because we must believe what God has commanded us to believe.

So your charge is false and doesn't reflect my views.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I accepted Jesus in 1999. I was excited about it, read the Bible but didn't really have a solid foundation. I fell back into worldly ways. I still attended church, believed I was saved but led a sinful life. In December, I rededicated myself to Jesus and truly repented for my lack of spiritual growth, my transgressions, and I have changed a great deal. I now have Christian mentors from my church, read scripture each day, go to Bible studies, and it feels like my relationship with Jesus is real and personal. I journal and hear from God.

I'm doing a study of Hebrews and it scared me. It talks about falling away and not getting back.

Can someone explain this to me in very simple terms.

It seems that you need answers to teachings in Scripture and you do not have access to those answers even though you attend a church.


To find out where those answers are available, you have to look for that in Scripture!


What are references to "answers" to be found in Scripture? I am sure you'll agree that one possible candidate is "bread":



John 6:31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.


That text solves your problem in many ways. First it tells you that people who are puzzled by spiritual teachings are called the hungry or thirsty ones. Obviously Jesus was not speaking about physical hunger or thirst, because Christians will always experience these hungers and thirsts. However, Christians will always receive bread, teachings and explanations, answers:



Luke 11:11"Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12"Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"


Was the Holy Spirit with Israel when she left Egypt? Sure He was:


Exodus 13:21 The LORD was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night. 22He did not take away the pillar of cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night.


Was Israel being given teachings with explanations? Sure they were:


1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.



So really, if you want answers you should ask God for His Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.


What if the answer is not a result of being led by the Holy Spirit but a result of too much pizza the previous night? Well that's why you should not avoid gathering together with saints, believers who also ask God for bread. Then you will be able to cross check if your answer was really given by God :


1 Corinthians 14:29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.


Sometimes the teachings are hard teachings, requiring you to make difficult choices. However, our God is patient and merciful, quick to forgive and slow to get angry and will not immediately discipline us for not accepting His instructions.


However, after giving us several opportunities to be obedient, and giving proof of the truth of the explanations through miraculous answers to prayers, if after tasting the goodness of God we still persist in disobedience, He will have no option but to dispense judgment on us :


1 Corinthians 10:5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.



Hebrews 3:17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?


Hebrews 2 :1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.


Hey, there's your answer! So if your hear His voice today, don't be like Israel :



Hebrews 4:1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

 

[A New Dawn]

These don't say that God chooses who will believe.

What they say is that we can't choose. That we don't seek after Christ, that we don't understand Christ, and that we don't look for anything except for a way to continue on in our sins. So .................. if we can't choose Christ, then how do we choose him so God knows, from the foundation of the world, that we have chosen him? See, there is no way on earth it is possible, since we can't choose Him. So, to take the guess work out, if we can't choose Him, then we must already be chosen by God for salvation, and then Christ makes it so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What they say is that we can't choose. That we don't seek after Christ, that we don't understand Christ, and that we don't look for anything except for a way to continue on in our sins. So .................. if we can't choose Christ, then how do we choose him so God knows, from the foundation of the world, that we have chosen him? See, there is no way on earth it is possible, since we can't choose Him. So, to take the guess work out, if we can't choose Him, then we must already be chosen by God for salvation, and then Christ makes it so.

I see no evidence that any of these verses tell us that we can't believe in Christ, but I understand that is what you think they mean. But believing in Christ just happens to be the WHOLE THRUST of the Bible; to believe in Christ for salvation.

Was Paul lying to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved? The answer was quite direct: believe and you will be saved.

Was Paul telling him something he couldn't do? He specifically asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

If humans cannot believe in Christ, Paul's answer was not true. Or at least not honest.

 

[A New Dawn]

I see no evidence that any of these verses tell us that we can't believe in Christ, but I understand that is what you think they mean. But believing in Christ just happens to be the WHOLE THRUST of the Bible; to believe in Christ for salvation.

Was Paul lying to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved? The answer was quite direct: believe and you will be saved.

Was Paul telling him something he couldn't do? He specifically asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

If humans cannot believe in Christ, Paul's answer was not true. Or at least not honest.

So, if I understand you correctly, this passage does not mean what it says ..............

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

What is it you think it means if it doesn't mean that there are none that understand or seek after God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, if I understand you correctly, this passage does not mean what it says ...…..
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

What is it you think it means if it doesn't mean that there are none that understand or seek after God.

How about considering some context. v.10 tells us there are no righteous people. OK, all are sinners, which v.9 already said.

Now, for v.11-12, Paul quoted from Psa 14:1-3 and Psa 53:1-3, which are identical. The context there is the "fool" or the atheist who says "There is no God". It is those who don't understand or seek after God.

Paul was NOT making a blanket statement about the entire human race. The proof is found in Scripture.

To prove that there are those who do seek after God, consider what Paul wrote in Rom 10:2 - For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

Psa 9:10 - And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

Cornelius is an example of one who sought God as an unbeliever. Acts 10

Heb 11:6 acknowledges that there are those who seek God.

So, Rom 3:1-12 is not a blanket statement about all of humanity.

 

[A New Dawn]

How about considering some context. v.10 tells us there are no righteous people. OK, all are sinners, which v.9 already said.

Now, for v.11-12, Paul quoted from Psa 14:1-3 and Psa 53:1-3, which are identical. The context there is the "fool" or the atheist who says "There is no God". It is those who don't understand or seek after God.

Paul was NOT making a blanket statement about the entire human race. The proof is found in Scripture.

Yes, he was making a blanket statement about the entire human race. What else did Paul say? He said, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Before we were saved, we were ALL "fools" or atheists. Merely other words for sinners.

 

[Hank77]

What they say is that we can't choose. That we don't seek after Christ, that we don't understand Christ, and that we don't look for anything except for a way to continue on in our sins. So .................. if we can't choose Christ, then how do we choose him so God knows, from the foundation of the world, that we have chosen him? See, there is no way on earth it is possible, since we can't choose Him. So, to take the guess work out, if we can't choose Him, then we must already be chosen by God for salvation, and then Christ makes it so.

imo, and in the theology that I believe......
You are correct in saying that men, on their own, cannot choose God, cannot choose to believe the Gospel. You are also correct in saying that God chooses men to be saved.

But it does not say we have no choice to make at all.
We cannot understand in order to choose Him without the Holy Spirit drawing us to Him.
Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw ALL men unto Him.
It is the desire of God's heart that all men be saved.
Paul tells us that God reconciled Himself to the world through His Son, and that we need to reconcile ourselves to God. We are told not to harden our hearts against God.
But many harden their hearts and choose not to turn to God for the gift of salvation that He is offering through Jesus the Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit speaking to men's hearts.
God sets before us life and death and tells us to choose life, life through His Son.

 

[A New Dawn]

imo, and in the theology that I believe......
You are correct in saying that men, on their own, cannot choose God, cannot choose to believe the Gospel. You are also correct in saying that God chooses men to be saved.

But it does not say we have no choice to make at all.
We cannot understand in order to choose Him without the Holy Spirit drawing us to Him.
Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw ALL men unto Him.
It is the desire of God's heart that all men be saved.
Paul tells us that God reconciled Himself to the world through His Son, and that we need to reconcile ourselves to God. We are told not to harden our hearts against God.
But many harden their hearts and choose not to turn to God for the gift of salvation that He is offering through Jesus the Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit speaking to men's hearts.
God sets before us life and death and tells us to choose life, life through His Son.

If you look at the Bible, all rarely means all of everyone. First off, there is more than one word that is translated to "all". And the word used in that verse can either mean all, individually, or some of all types. It generally means all of the people being spoken of in the context of the passage. Otherwise, if what you say is true, than all people would be saved, since it is God's will that all be saved, leading us to universal salvation. But we know that Christ also said that only those who believed on Him would be saved, so all can't mean all of everyone. It can (and does) mean all who believe on Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, he was making a blanket statement about the entire human race.

I just proved from Scripture that he wasn't. But each to his/her own opinion.

What else did Paul say? He said, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Before we were saved, we were ALL "fools" or atheists. Merely other words for sinners.

I proved otherwise from Scripture. I am sorry that my posts were not read.

 

[FreeGrace2]

imo, and in the theology that I believe......
You are correct in saying that men, on their own, cannot choose God, cannot choose to believe the Gospel. You are also correct in saying that God chooses men to be saved.

Do you believe that God chooses who will believe? Because that's what seems to be meant by "God chooses men to be saved". We all agree that God chooses to save those who believe, as indicated by 1 Cor 1:21 and the statement: "God was pleased…to save those who believe".

But it does not say we have no choice to make at all.
We cannot understand in order to choose Him without the Holy Spirit drawing us to Him.
Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw ALL men unto Him.
It is the desire of God's heart that all men be saved.
Paul tells us that God reconciled Himself to the world through His Son, and that we need to reconcile ourselves to God. We are told not to harden our hearts against God.
But many harden their hearts and choose not to turn to God for the gift of salvation that He is offering through Jesus the Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit speaking to men's hearts.
God sets before us life and death and tells us to choose life, life through His Son.

Agreed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you look at the Bible, all rarely means all of everyone. First off, there is more than one word that is translated to "all". And the word used in that verse can either mean all, individually, or some of all types. It generally means all of the people being spoken of in the context of the passage. Otherwise, if what you say is true, than all people would be saved, since it is God's will that all be saved, leading us to universal salvation. But we know that Christ also said that only those who believed on Him would be saved, so all can't mean all of everyone. It can (and does) mean all who believe on Him.

There is no reason to assume that "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 doesn't mean the whole world of mankind. There is no context for less than everyone.

As well, 1 Jn 2:2 says that Jesus was the propitiation for "our sins" (meaning believers) but also for the sins of the "whole world" (meaning everyone else). There is no context to understand "whole world" as anything less. John was clear about the fact that Christ died for believers and unbelievers. Not just some of them.

btw, Heb 2:9 and 2 Cor 5:14 and 15 all say that He died for ALL. Again, there is no context to mean 'less than everyone'.

 

[Hank77]

Otherwise, if what you say is true, than all people would be saved, since it is God's will that all be saved, leading us to universal salvation. But we know that Christ also said that only those who believed on Him would be saved, so all can't mean all of everyone. It can (and does) mean all who believe on Him.

Your theology says that if the Holy Spirit draws, that call is irresistible, so anyone called must respond and be saved.
My theology says that when the Holy Spirit draws that call is not irresistible, so all men are called but few respond so they are not saved. They harden their hearts against it. Some want to wait until later in their life, but that is very dangerous because if they turn away when they are drawn, who says that God will choose to draw them again.
So the Holy Spirit can draw ALL men but not ALL men will be saved, they will not reconcile themselves to God.

Even if we say that the John verse is saying 'I will draw ALL (Jews and Gentiles) unto me' and not individuals being part of that 'all', what do we do with these verses?
1Ti 2:1 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:
1Ti 2:2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
1Ti 2:3 for this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4 who doth will (desires) all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
1Ti 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--

This is Paul talking about all men not about Jews and Gentiles. We can know this because he says to pray for those in authority as being part of all men. So we are not to just pray that they make good decisions for government but for their salvation because Christ gave himself as a ransom for them as well. So we pray for their salvation so that we can live a quiet and peaceable life.

 

[Hank77]

Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?

I do not believe in predestination or irresistible grace. Neither do I believe OSAS, although I do not believe one can easily become apostate, fall from grace.