Question on Falling from Grace

[A New Dawn]

I just proved from Scripture that he wasn't. But each to his/her own opinion.


I proved otherwise from Scripture. I am sorry that my posts were not read.

You didn't prove anything. You listed a couple of scriptures that suggest that someone initiated the desire to choose to have faith in God, but there is nothing in those verses that suggests just that. The Bible is silent on that matter in those verses. But it does tell us, in Romans 3, that there are NONE that seek Christ, there are NONE that understand him. You really need to start reading the Bible for what it says and not try to force it into a mold of your own creation. If Christ says that God chose whom He elected for salvation and Christ says he will save them, and lose none of them, and that none of them, without Christ's intervention, have the ability to come to belief on their own because they do not seek after Christ, then why do you continue to suggest that we can come to faith on our own, and God only chose us because of what we did? That makes us our own savior. Ephesians says that faith is a gift from God specifically so that we cannot boast in our own handiwork. I mean, it is spelled out for us in the Bible. All you have to do is read it without the blinders of a specific theological framework.

 

[A New Dawn]

There is no reason to assume that "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 doesn't mean the whole world of mankind. There is no context for less than everyone.

As well, 1 Jn 2:2 says that Jesus was the propitiation for "our sins" (meaning believers) but also for the sins of the "whole world" (meaning everyone else). There is no context to understand "whole world" as anything less. John was clear about the fact that Christ died for believers and unbelievers. Not just some of them.

btw, Heb 2:9 and 2 Cor 5:14 and 15 all say that He died for ALL. Again, there is no context to mean 'less than everyone'.

I agree that Jesus death was sufficient for all the world. I believe it is efficient only for the elect. I don't believe it is God's will that all be saved, or all would be saved, since Christ says that it is the will of the Father that He will save all whom the Father gives to him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You didn't prove anything. You listed a couple of scriptures that suggest that someone initiated the desire to choose to have faith in God, but there is nothing in those verses that suggests just that. The Bible is silent on that matter in those verses. But it does tell us, in Romans 3, that there are NONE that seek Christ, there are NONE that understand him. You really need to start reading the Bible for what it says and not try to force it into a mold of your own creation.

I suggest that one pay attention to the fact that Rom 3:9-18 is a series of OT quotes. And v.10 isn't a blanket statement about the entire human race, as is being claimed. v.11-12 quotes Psa 14:1-3 and Psa 53:1-3. The first verses of each passage gives us the context for who the NONE are. Fools. Always check out the OT quote when used in the NT to really understand what is being said.

If Christ says that God chose whom He elected for salvation and Christ says he will save them, and lose none of them, and that none of them, without Christ's intervention, have the ability to come to belief on their own because they do not seek after Christ, then why do you continue to suggest that we can come to faith on our own, and God only chose us because of what we did?

First, nowhere in the Bible does it say that "God chose whom He elected for salvation".

God does choose who He will save, and that is believers, indicated from 1 Cor 1:21.

Second, I've never said that anyone has the ability to come to belief on their own. It is obvious from Scripture that the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry plays a huge part. And from Rom 1:19-20, God has revealed Himself and His divine attributes to everyone so that no one has any excuse.

That makes us our own savior.

And such a claim about a very erroneous understanding of my view is just silly. Jesus Christ IS the ONLY Savior. That is my view, so please jettison these erroneous misunderstandings of my view.

Ephesians says that faith is a gift from God specifically so that we cannot boast in our own handiwork. I mean, it is spelled out for us in the Bible. All you have to do is read it without the blinders of a specific theological framework.

Are you aware that 'faith" is a noun? As a noun, 'faith' is the body of what is believed, and yes, that is from God. It's His Word all the way.

But there are no verses that tell us that God is the cause of our action of believing in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree that Jesus death was sufficient for all the world.

Which is why He died for everyone.

I believe it is efficient only for the elect.

One believes BEFORE they are elect. Eph 1:4. The "us" refers specifically to believers, as defined in 1:19.

I don't believe it is God's will that all be saved, or all would be saved

I believe what the Bible very plainly says.

1 Tim 2:3,4 - 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

I suppose the phrase "who desires all men to be saved" doesn't mean what it says? Or that God only saves men, ignoring women???

since Christ says that it is the will of the Father that He will save all whom the Father gives to him.

I agree. But guess who the Father gives to the Son: believers. And He sure will save all of them. Every last one of them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I accepted Jesus in 1999. I was excited about it, read the Bible but didn't really have a solid foundation. I fell back into worldly ways. I still attended church, believed I was saved but led a sinful life. In December, I rededicated myself to Jesus and truly repented for my lack of spiritual growth, my transgressions, and I have changed a great deal. I now have Christian mentors from my church, read scripture each day, go to Bible studies, and it feels like my relationship with Jesus is real and personal. I journal and hear from God.

I'm doing a study of Hebrews and it scared me. It talks about falling away and not getting back.

Can someone explain this to me in very simple terms.

Jesus said to the 70 disciples (Luke 10:17) that He sent out that they were to rejoice that their names were written in heaven.

"Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven" (Luke 10:20).

So the 70 disciples (Not the famous 12) did in fact have their names written in heaven at one point in time. However, they stopped following Jesus (See John 6:66 - Please take note that this is not a good number and what they did was evil and wrong); Anyways, when they stopped following Jesus, their names would have been blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5). They did not endure because they had no root in God's Word and proved they were not one of the truly faithful followers in Christ within this life (i.e. the Elect). For they chose of their own free will to go their own way. Showing they were not one of the true brethren (Who endured in their faith).

This is why we read elsewhere.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19).

They were born again and once saved, but they were not of the Elect or those who had root in God's Word (Note: In reference to "having no root" see the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13). Hence, why they were not of us (i.e. the Elect). For God chooses the Elect based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choices (See 1 Peter 1:1-2 with a special focus on verse 2).

Now, if one was truly born again spiritually and they had the Holy Spirit and the gifts thereof and they rejected Jesus, they cannot repent and come back (Hebrews 6:4-6). Peter's denial was different because he did not reject Christ while having the Holy Spirit. For the Spirit was poured out later upon the disciples. Only believers who have backslidden into a lifestyle of sin (While believing Jesus is their Savior still) can repent and come back to the faith to the saving of their soul (See James 5:19-20).


...

 

[A New Dawn]

One believes BEFORE they are elect.

No, the elect are those who are elected for salvation. Faith is a gift of God given so we cannot boast in our own salvation. The elect have no faith on their own. God turns our hearts to him, gifts us saving faith, and then, because our will matches His, Christ saves us. They all happen almost instantaneously, but there is an order. They are elect first. Elected to salvation.

I agree. But guess who the Father gives to the Son: believers. And He sure will save all of them. Every last one of them.

Only your opinion since one does not seek after Christ, they are dead in their sins and trespasses, before Christ gifts them saving faith.

Since you continue to not acknowledge the clear writing of Paul in Romans, then this discussion is at an end for me. If you continue to find reasons to not believe what is clearly said, I will not debate this anymore with you.

 

[A New Dawn]

But there are no verses that tell us that God is the cause of our action of believing in Christ.

John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, the elect are those who are elected for salvation.

There are no verses that say this.

Faith is a gift of God given so we cannot boast in our own salvation.

I agree. The word 'faith' is a noun, which all gifts are. And this gift, which is the "body of what we believe" has been given by God. But the real issue is about action of believing in Christ. That action is NOT a gift of God. It's a heart response to the gospel (Rom 10:10).

The elect have no faith on their own.

No one does.

God turns our hearts to him, gifts us saving faith, and then, because our will matches His, Christ saves us. They all happen almost instantaneously, but there is an order. They are elect first. Elected to salvation.

Saving faith is the body of what we believe. i.e., the Christian faith. Seems you forgot to add that regeneration precedes believing in Christ. But that's ok, since the Bible doesn't teach this.

Only your opinion since one does not seek after Christ, they are dead in their sins and trespasses, before Christ gifts them saving faith.

He gifts salvation to those who believe in Him for it.

Since you continue to not acknowledge the clear writing of Paul in Romans, then this discussion is at an end for me. If you continue to find reasons to not believe what is clearly said, I will not debate this anymore with you.

What are you referring to? Your comments were attached to my comments about who the Father gives to the Son, which is found in John, not Paul's writings.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said;
"But there are no verses that tell us that God is the cause of our action of believing in Christ."

John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again I say, there are no verses that tell us that God is the cause of our action of believing in Christ. Not even this one.

Since John makes the point further on in 12:32 that Jesus will draw ALL MEN to Himself, and the fact that it is absurd if God commands everyone to do something that is impossible to do, and that God commands "all people everywhere to repent" (change their minds about who Jesus Christ is and what He did for them), it doesn't make sense to see v.65 as God only allowing some to come to Christ.

And back in v.45 we see who exactly is drawn to Christ; those who have listened and learned from the Father.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Jn 6:44,45

So, who does the Father draw? 'everyone who has heard (listened) and learned from the Father come to Me'.

 

[A New Dawn]

I suggest that one pay attention to the fact that Rom 3:9-18 is a series of OT quotes. And v.10 isn't a blanket statement about the entire human race, as is being claimed. v.11-12 quotes Psa 14:1-3 and Psa 53:1-3. The first verses of each passage gives us the context for who the NONE are. Fools. Always check out the OT quote when used in the NT to really understand what is being said.

Did you know that the Jesus Seminar determined that Jesus did not say anything new, except maybe 3 words, that were not already said previously in the Bible. So what is your point? That they are said previously discounts that they were said, again, by Paul? That because they were said previously means that there can't possibly be another inflection for them? If either of these are true, then why bother reading what Jesus said? Just read the OT and be done with it. Oh, that's right, Jesus came and gave new meaning to thing done and said previously.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did you know that the Jesus Seminar determined that Jesus did not say anything new, except maybe 3 words, that were not already said previously in the Bible. So what is your point?

Well, what is YOUR point here? Who cares about the apostaste Jesus Seminar and what they are claiming? What does that have to do with what I posted?

My comments were an explanation of how to understand Rom 3:10 from the context of the verses from the OT that Paul quoted.

That they are said previously discounts that they were said, again, by Paul?

Huh??! I never said anything about what was said discounting anything. ???

That because they were said previously means that there can't possibly be another inflection for them?

My point is that each of the 6 OT quotes were given to prove in the various ways that all men are sinful. Should one really assume that each of the 6 quotes applies to each and every member of the human race? How would that be rational or reasonable?

If either of these are true, then why bother reading what Jesus said? Just read the OT and be done with it. Oh, that's right, Jesus came and gave new meaning to thing done and said previously.

??? I have no idea what this is supposed to mean or refer to.

 

[A New Dawn]

??? I have no idea what this is supposed to mean or refer to.

Hence why the discussion is at an end.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hence why the discussion is at an end.

Thank you. It's impossible to have a discussion when one side has no idea what point is being made.

 

[A New Dawn]

Thank you. It's impossible to have a discussion when one side has no idea what point is being made.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe if you try to understand why I said what I said about the Jesus Seminar and how it pertains to the discussion, we can continue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe if you try to understand why I said what I said about the Jesus Seminar and how it pertains to the discussion, we can continue.

Trying to understand something that isn't being understood won't happen. If something isn't being understood, the only way one will understand is if the claimer further clarifies their point.

If something doesn't make sense, trying to understand will be futile. What one needs is more information, or more clarification.

 

[Wordkeeper]

https://bible.org/article/introduction-book-romans

Quote

6. PURPOSE FOR THE BOOK OF ROMANS

11 Suetonius records that Claudius banished Jews from Rome in AD 49 Because there had been rioting at the instigation of one called Chrestus (“Claudius ‘Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantes Roma expulit” [Claudius 25]) See Guthrie, NTI, p. 393; Cranfield, p. 16.

.....
D. To address tones of anti-semitism which might have arisen due the Claudius’ decree24

.....


https://bible.org/seriespage/6-romans-introduction-argument-and-outline

Quote

In sum, Paul’s occasion-purpose for writing Romans is threefold: (1) he was going west and needed to have a base of operations in a church that shared both his vision and his theology; (2) he knew that his life was in danger and wanted to give something of a more balanced, systematic presentation of his gospel, to leave as a memorial; and (3) he detected anti-Semitism arising in the Roman church through the influence of Claudius’ edict and wanted to give a theologically-based correction to this attitude.


It is important to study the background of the book of Romans.

Claudius had banished Jews from Rome because of the constant quarreling amongst the various sects on matters of theology. The church in Rome became dominated by the Gentile faction, who began to see the troubles faced by Jews as a falling out of favor with God and had begun to mistreat the Jewish members of the church.

The first few chapters of the letter to the church in Rome communicates Paul's views about the place Jews and Gentiles have in God's plan. They have equal standing. The Jews were not chosen because they were more righteous or more important. They were stiff necked and the smallest of nations. Gentiles were not added either because they were more noble or performed better: whatever had been revealed to them about God's attributes and their obligations to Him as their creator had been swept aside. Not one group was righteous, all had fallen short. Not one group had anything that counted as credit for being included in the assembly of God's People. It was purely because of God's mercy.

As for the gift that could not be revoked, Israel did have a formal covenant. She also was the first to be chosen to be a vehicle for God's revelation of His plan of salvation to the world. THAT gift was irrevocable. Israel as a distinct people group continued to be God's People, confirmed by the statement that she would indeed be grafted back into the Root.

Seeing that the letter to the church in Rome was written to inform the believer about the state of Israel's relationship with God (formerly in good standing by grace, now cut off, however temporarily), verses describing the unrighteous status of all people groups and the gifts that were given to these undeserving groups by a merciful God should be viewed and quoted with that background in mind.