Question on Falling from Grace

[Job8]

I wouldn't spend so much time being concerned whether or not you can fall away from grace, but focus on being and doing the best you can with the grace that you have received.

That is sound advice. Stop focusing on yourself. Focus first on Christ, second on helping and encouraging other Christians, thirdly on sharing the Gospel with everyone. Self-centeredness is the bane of spiritual health.

 

[Albion]

I've always thought of the Prodigal Son story as one that compares the audience to the older brother rather than the younger one.

I'd agree that the story reflects on more than one of the characters involved in it, but as far as the idea of being "in" and then falling away, but then "coming back" goes, it seems a good lesson for the writer of the OP to consider.

 

[Jesus First]

You're free to hold any opinion desired. In fact, neither Arminianism nor Calvinism can prove their various claims. Such as:
loss of salvation from the Arminians
Christ died only for the elect from the Calvinists
Man has no free will from the Calvinists
God chooses who will believe from the Calvinists.


This is the real perversion. What a sick, twisted non-view of what is totally Biblical. I CHALLENGE you to find any free grace pastor or teacher who teaches "a one-time imitation belief" (whatever in the world that even means!), and that those who have believed "can live the wages of sin". This is beyond nonsense.

If no proof for this outlandish claim is given, there will be no point in further discussion.


I will clarify: there are grave consequences of those choices. Free grace theology teaches MORE on rewards and divine discipline than any other theological system. Some don't even teach any of this.

To say something is "optional" only means there are choices to be made. Just like in a human family. Children are told and expected to obey their parents. But do all of them do this? Of course not. God's Word lays out very clearly the consequences of disobedience.

It is totally disingenuous to paint free grace theology as teaching that there are no consequences of sin and rebellion. Or totally ignorant. Which category would be your position?


How about some actual evidence/proof for this statement. One is saved WHEN one believes in Christ for eternal life.


Sure. "Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics" by Dan Wallace. Page 572: Introduction: "As a general introduction, for the most part, the perfect and pluperfect tenses are identiccal in aspect though different in time. Thus botth speak of an event accomplished in the past (in the indicative mood, that is) with results existing afterwards - the perfect speaking of results existing in the pressent, the pluperfect speaking of results in the past."

On page 573: "As Moulton points out, the perfect tense is 'the most important, exegetically, of all the Greek Tenses.' "

P. 573: Definition: "The force of the perfect tense is simply that it describes an event that, completed in the past (we are speaking of the perfect indicative here), has results existing in the present time (i.e.; in relation to the speaker). Or as Zerwick puts it, the perfect tense is used for 'indicating not the pat action as such but the present state of affairs resulting from the past action.' "


OK, let's consider his claim. If an action from the past has existing results presently in relation to the speaker, the results are certainly future to the actual action. And your quote misses the suggestion from another scholar, Chamberlain, who does believe the perfect tense "describe an act that has abiding results".


My mistake. Past action with on-going results is a better statement.


There is no suggestion from John 5:24 that one must "continue to hear and believe" in order to continue to have erternal life. That is simply an assumption.


Irrelevant example. Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God, and then wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.


What is the point from this parable? Soil 1 represents an unbeliever, #2 represents a believer who ceases to believe because of life's hardships, etc, #3 represents a believer who becomes distracted by life's pleasures, etc, and #4 represents a believer who grows up spiritually and produces fruit. Believers 2 and 3 never produced fruit. The parable is about fruit production, not about proof of salvation.


Since you've quoted from Wallace, let's go there for the aorist tense:
"It may be helpful to thinkf of the aorist as taking a snapshot of the action while the imperfect takes a motion picture, protraying the action as it unfolds." p.555

"Outside the indicative and partiiple, time is not a feature of the aorist." p.555


It was v.9 that uses "believe" in the aorist tense: that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;


Your opinion is noted and rejected. Paul was clear about what he said. That the jailer continued to believe in the context of the text doesn't change the meaning of the aorist. One is saved WHEN one believes.


The point is that the aorist does not consider a time frame of action.


That he continued to believe is noted, but that doesn't change the aorist.


I have already given Wallace's definition of it, so your claim is without merit.


My basis is the definition of the tense.

[QUTOE]You wrote, "well, gee, this is helpful. NOT! How about actually pointing out these so-called "additional non biblical arguments" and prove that they are. Just throwing out opinion or comment doesn't add a thing to the discussion" [end of your quote].

Here are few of your none biblical proofs:

"Remember, believers can become rebellious, calloused, or just careless. But they remain God's child, and they will always have eternal life." [end of your quote].

[/QUOTE]

Freegrace2:

Can you please offer some clarification of your theological framework? Based on your responses you seem to hold to Free Grace Theology (FGT). You don't believe that repentance of sin, following Christ and discipleship are necessary to be saved, correct? So once someone is a believer they can live "the wages of sin" their entire life and be saved, correct?

The FGT camp is fractured by one side believing that it's not even necessary to know about the cross of Christ (called the crossless gospel) to be saved. Are you in agreement with this group?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace2:

Can you please offer some clarification of your theological framework? Based on your responses you seem to hold to Free Grace Theology (FGT). You don't believe that repentance of sin, following Christ and discipleship are necessary to be saved, correct?

Basically correct. The word "repentance" from the Greek means a change of mind, which is absolutely necessary to place one's faith in Christ.

So once someone is a believer they can live "the wages of sin" their entire life and be saved, correct?

The Bible is crystal clear that the one who has believed is eternally secure. otoh, there are zero verses that teach that one can lose their saved state. I will repeat: none.

The FGT camp is fractured by one side believing that it's not even necessary to know about the cross of Christ (called the crossless gospel) to be saved. Are you in agreement with this group?

No. Paul was clear about that in 1 Cor 15:3.

btw, every theological camp is "fractured". In the Calvinist camp, there are 3, 4, and 5 pointers. I suppose there are fractures in the Arminian camp as well.

To add to the confusion, there is the "Lordship Salvation" view, which can be found in both Arminian and Calvinist camps.

 

[A New Dawn]

I accepted Jesus in 1999. I was excited about it, read the Bible but didn't really have a solid foundation. I fell back into worldly ways. I still attended church, believed I was saved but led a sinful life. In December, I rededicated myself to Jesus and truly repented for my lack of spiritual growth, my transgressions, and I have changed a great deal. I now have Christian mentors from my church, read scripture each day, go to Bible studies, and it feels like my relationship with Jesus is real and personal. I journal and hear from God.

I'm doing a study of Hebrews and it scared me. It talks about falling away and not getting back.

Can someone explain this to me in very simple terms.

KimT, as was mentioned in a previous post, the important thing to remember about each scripture in the Bible is what the context is and who is being written to. In the book of Hebrews, it is written to the Jews who placed their faith in Christ, but decided to return to the ways of the law due to peer pressure and family pressures. It is not written to those all who became believers, but to a specific group who left the faith and why they left the faith. The reason this is a severe problem for them is because, as we understand about the law, it is about sacrifice. We know from Christ's words that He came to fulfill the law, and He did that through his own sacrifice (He gave his life for ours). Those Jews who became believers understood that Christ's sacrifice trumps the animal sacrifices that the Jews performed under the law, and so those who put faith in Christ also put their faith in that sacrifice. For them to return to animal sacrifice made it as though Christ's sacrifice was in vain. They turned from a sacrifice that was truly salvific to one that was only meant to represent the one that was truly salvific, but wasn't, itself. By doing this, they crucify Christ again to themselves.

This is the context of Hebrews 6. It is almost impossible for us to be in this position today, since most of us in the church were never Jewish (as compared to the new church when most of them were Jews), and animal sacrifice is no longer practiced.

Can one fall from faith? One who has been truly saved can have low times, but if they are truly saved, they can never be plucked from God's hand. Perseverance to the end is the key to know if you have been saved. As long as you are alive, you have not reached the end, and if you fall, if you are truly saved, you will return to belief.

 

[Jesus First]

Hi "A New Dawn",

Thanks for bringing this thread back on track. It's probably my fault.

You stated:

In the book of Hebrews, it is written to the Jews who placed their faith in Christ, but decided to return to the ways of the law due to peer pressure and family pressures. It is not written to those all who became believers, but to a specific group who left the faith and why they left the faith.

How can someone who "placed their faith in Christ, but decided to return to the ways of the law" [end of your quote] not be a former Christian? Have they not departed the faith and believed in vain?

This is the context of Hebrews 6. It is almost impossible for us to be in this position today, since most of us in the church were never Jewish (as compared to the new church when most of them were Jews), and animal sacrifice is no longer practiced.

That was a very contextual. Thanks for your explanation. So few people today seem to remember how important context is. I'm sure you agree that this book still has principles that apply to us today. Such as the possibility of leaving the faith. I find the warnings very encouraging. Sometimes when I'm discouraged —I read Hebrews

Can one fall from faith? One who has been truly saved can have low times, but if they are truly saved, they can never be plucked from God's hand.

The passage about "plucked from God's hand" is John 10:27-29:

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them [those who actively "hear" and "follow" in the present] eternal life, and they [those who actively "hear" and "follow" in the present] will never perish, and no one will snatch them [those who actively "hear" and "follow" in the present] out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them [those who actively "hear" and "follow" in the present] out of the Father’s hand."

The words "hear" and "follow" are in the Greek present tense. The Greek present tense doesn't comment on the future. It's silent. So it doesn't grammatically make your argument that all who "hear" today and "follow" today will continue to do ("but if they are truly saved, they can never be plucked from God's hand." end of your quote). To be fair —it also doesn't state they won't —as stated it's silent on the future.

Please consider Wallace in the book Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics:

"With reference to aspect, the present tense is internal (that is, it portrays the action from the inside of the event, without special regard for beginning or end), but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion). The present tense’s portrayal of an event “focuses on its development or progress and sees the occurrence in regard to its internal make-up, without beginning or end in view.” It is sometimes called progressive: It “basically represents an activity as in process (or in progress).” [end of quote; page 514; 1996].

Perseverance to the end is the key to know if you have been saved. As long as you are alive, you have not reached the end, and if you fall, if you are truly saved, you will return to belief.

Is this your opinion, or, can you provide Biblical proof?

I look forward to your reply.

Keep the faith in Jesus Christ and His Word!

 

[Jesus First]

Basically correct. The word "repentance" from the Greek means a change of mind, which is absolutely necessary to place one's faith in Christ.


The Bible is crystal clear that the one who has believed is eternally secure. otoh, there are zero verses that teach that one can lose their saved state. I will repeat: none.


No. Paul was clear about that in 1 Cor 15:3.

btw, every theological camp is "fractured". In the Calvinist camp, there are 3, 4, and 5 pointers. I suppose there are fractures in the Arminian camp as well.

To add to the confusion, there is the "Lordship Salvation" view, which can be found in both Arminian and Calvinist camps.

Thanks for responding. We obviously don't agree theologically. But —I'll try to steer this thread back on track. It's my fault for losing focus of the OP's question.

You did provide 1 Corinthians 15:3 in your response. Are you aware of verse 2:

"and by which you are being saved, if [conditional] you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain [a possibility]." 1 Corinthians 15:2

This verse describes the Gospel (15:1-11). Would you agree that it's conditional and this verse among many indicates that salvation is not a completed action when someone enters the faith?

Keep the faith.
In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

I accepted Jesus in 1999. I was excited about it, read the Bible but didn't really have a solid foundation. I fell back into worldly ways. I still attended church, believed I was saved but led a sinful life. In December, I rededicated myself to Jesus and truly repented for my lack of spiritual growth, my transgressions, and I have changed a great deal. I now have Christian mentors from my church, read scripture each day, go to Bible studies, and it feels like my relationship with Jesus is real and personal. I journal and hear from God.

I'm doing a study of Hebrews and it scared me. It talks about falling away and not getting back.

Can someone explain this to me in very simple terms.

Hi KimT,

Thanks for sharing part of your testimony. I'm happy to hear that you're back in fellowship with our awesome Savior —Jesus Christ. If it wasn't for His mercies and grace, I'd be on the "broad road" myself. Praise Jesus Christ for His mercies and grace!

I find the book of Hebews very encouraging. The author although unknown, is likely a Jew. It's a very Jewish book —it contains many words of encouragement and warnings.

The passage you may have in mind ("It talks about falling away and not getting back"; end of your quote) may be 6:4-6:

"6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt." Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV).

This passage describes those who were formerly in the faith and "have fallen away". They cannot return ("For it is impossible"). This passage doesn't describe those who are carnal, lukewarm, etc., but those who have "fell away" to an unrecoverable degree.

These apostate ones don't want to return —evidenced by their actions. For "they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt" (vs. 6) and "but if it bears thorns and thistles [the land; vs. 7], it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned." (vs. 8).

The author (s) of Hebrews concludes this section:

"9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (9-12).

Although the warnings in Hebrews are not to be taken lightly, they serve to encourage those in the faith as verse 12 states: "so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises" (vs. 12).

Keep the faith in Christ!

 

[A New Dawn]

Hi "A New Dawn",

Thanks for bringing this thread back on track. It's probably my fault.

You stated:

How can someone who "placed their faith in Christ, but decided to return to the ways of the law" [end of your quote] not be a former Christian? Have they not departed the faith and believed in vain?

There is a difference between leaving the faith and returning to the ways of the law. One can still have faith and turn from appropriate worship.

That was a very contextual. Thanks for your explanation. So few people today seem to remember how important context is. I'm sure you agree that this book still has principles that apply to us today. Such as the possibility of leaving the faith. I find the warnings very encouraging. Sometimes when I'm discouraged —I read Hebrews

Since I disagree with you about what "leaving the faith" means, I guess you can say that I don't see that as an application for today. I do agree that other parts of the book hold more application that that particular passage does.

The passage about "plucked from God's hand" is John 10:27-29:

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them [those who actively "hear" and "follow" in the present] eternal life, and they [those who actively "hear" and "follow" in the present] will never perish, and no one will snatch them [those who actively "hear" and "follow" in the present] out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them [those who actively "hear" and "follow" in the present] out of the Father’s hand."

The words "hear" and "follow" are in the Greek present tense. The Greek present tense doesn't comment on the future. It's silent. So it doesn't grammatically make your argument that all who "hear" today and "follow" today will continue to do ("but if they are truly saved, they can never be plucked from God's hand." end of your quote). To be fair —it also doesn't state they won't —as stated it's silent on the future.

Just because one word is in the present tense doesn't mean that all of them are. He follows those who hear and follow with "they will never perish" (definitely future tense) and "no one will snatch them out of my hand" (also definitely future tense). If these two portions of the passage were also limited to the present, only, then they would definitely be worded differently to imply only present tense. But they are worded to imply that the promise is for now, and for ever.

Is this your opinion, or, can you provide Biblical proof?

I look forward to your reply.

Keep the faith in Jesus Christ and His Word!

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for responding. We obviously don't agree theologically. But —I'll try to steer this thread back on track. It's my fault for losing focus of the OP's question.

You did provide 1 Corinthians 15:3 in your response. Are you aware of verse 2:

"and by which you are being saved, if [conditional] you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain [a possibility]." 1 Corinthians 15:2

This verse describes the Gospel (15:1-11). Would you agree that it's conditional and this verse among many indicates that salvation is not a completed action when someone enters the faith?

Keep the faith.
In Christ!

No, I don't agree. The key to v.2 is the Greek word for "in vain". It means "without reason".
eikē

1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort

I hope it will be obvious that Paul was indicating that no one is saved unless they believe with reason, with purpose. iow, saving faith requires 2 things:

the object of faith, which is the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior, and
the goal of faith, which is salvation or eternal life.

Without both of these, all "faith" is in vain.

 

[Jesus First]

Just because one word is in the present tense doesn't mean that all of them are. He follows those who hear and follow with "they will never perish" (definitely future tense) and "no one will snatch them out of my hand" (also definitely future tense). If these two portions of the passage were also limited to the present, only, then they would definitely be worded differently to imply only present tense. But they are worded to imply that the promise is for now, and for ever.

God's Word is inspired as written. A correct interpretation requires first a correct understanding. In grammar, there are rules that must be followed in order to have arrive at a correct understanding.

The interpretation process of "drawing out" truth in neutral without a theological grid is called exegesis. The process of reading a theology or bias into the text is called eisegesis. People frequently believe as taught, independent of the Berean practice of spending time alone —"drawing out" the truth as intended by the author. The priesthood of the believer makes each one of us accountable directly to God.

A promise that is condition requires fulfilling the conditions stated. In John 10:27-29, the promises stated only apply while the conditions given are being fulfilled. It's no different today in contract law where a person/corporation promises in writing to grant certain benefits while the conditions stated are fulfilled.

Who are the "them" who Jesus gives [Greek present tense; ongoing] eternal life to? They are those who "hear" in the present and "follow" in the present.

Who are the "them" who will never perish? They are those who "hear" in the present and "follow" in the present.

Who are the ("no one will snatch [future tense] them out of my hand?". They are those who "hear" in the present and "follow" in the present.

You are correct of a future tense. But it applies to those who "hear" God's Word in the present and "follow" Christ in the present. This passages promises those who continue in the faith (ongoing) that they (1) have in the present "eternal life"; (2) "never perish" and (3) "no one will snatch [future tense] them out of my hand".

It goes beyond the text and is an unfaithful rendering to claim more than what it says.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

These verses demonstrate that perseverance is necessary. We agree on this. But these verses don't state your previous claim where you said:

Perseverance to the end is the key to know if you have been saved. As long as you are alive, you have not reached the end, and if you fall, if you are truly saved, you will return to belief.

The verses provided don't teach that 1) one needs to persevere to find out if they are saved —but to be saved! 2) "if you are truly saved, you will return to belief" [end of your quote].

Keep the faith! (Hebrews 10:38)

In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

No, I don't agree. The key to v.2 is the Greek word for "in vain". It means "without reason".
eikē

1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort

I hope it will be obvious that Paul was indicating that no one is saved unless they believe with reason, with purpose. iow, saving faith requires 2 things:

the object of faith, which is the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior, and
the goal of faith, which is salvation or eternal life.

Without both of these, all "faith" is in vain.

Here is the passage for context:

"1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received [in the past], in which you stand [perfect tense; from the past up to the present time], 2 AND by which you are being saved [Greek present tense], if [conditional] you hold fast to the word I preached to you [ongoing requirement of the Gospel] —unless you believed in vain." 1 Corinthans 15:1-2 (ESV).

The Greek word "vain" according to BDAG means in this verse: "④ pertaining to being without careful thought, without due consideration, in a haphazard manner" [end of quote; page 281; 2000].

Clearly salvation is not a completed action and perseverance is required. The Bible can define your theology, or your Free Grace Theology can (I say this respectfully).

Keep the faith in Jesus Christ!

In Christ!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is the passage for context:

"1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received [in the past], in which you stand [perfect tense; from the past up to the present time], 2 AND by which you are being saved [Greek present tense], if [conditional] you hold fast to the word I preached to you [ongoing requirement of the Gospel] —unless you believed in vain." 1 Corinthans 15:1-2 (ESV).

The Greek word "vain" according to BDAG means in this verse: "④ pertaining to being without careful thought, without due consideration, in a haphazard manner" [end of quote; page 281; 2000].

Clearly salvation is not a completed action and perseverance is required.

Not so "clearly". What is clear is that eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Unfortunately, my explanation of what saving faith is was either ignored or misunderstood.

The Bible can define your theology, or your Free Grace Theology can (I say this respectfully).

Free grace theology is closer to the Bible than any other theology.

 

[A New Dawn]

God's Word is inspired as written. A correct interpretation requires first a correct understanding. In grammar, there are rules that must be followed in order to have arrive at a correct understanding.

The interpretation process of "drawing out" truth in neutral without a theological grid is called exegesis. The process of reading a theology or bias into the text is called eisegesis. People frequently believe as taught, independent of the Berean practice of spending time alone —"drawing out" the truth as intended by the author. The priesthood of the believer makes each one of us accountable directly to God.

A promise that is condition requires fulfilling the conditions stated. In John 10:27-29, the promises stated only apply while the conditions given are being fulfilled. It's no different today in contract law where a person/corporation promises in writing to grant certain benefits while the conditions stated are fulfilled.

Who are the "them" who Jesus gives [Greek present tense; ongoing] eternal life to? They are those who "hear" in the present and "follow" in the present.

Who are the "them" who will never perish? They are those who "hear" in the present and "follow" in the present.

Who are the ("no one will snatch [future tense] them out of my hand?". They are those who "hear" in the present and "follow" in the present.

You are correct of a future tense. But it applies to those who "hear" God's Word in the present and "follow" Christ in the present. This passages promises those who continue in the faith (ongoing) that they (1) have in the present "eternal life"; (2) "never perish" and (3) "no one will snatch [future tense] them out of my hand".

It goes beyond the text and is an unfaithful rendering to claim more than what it says.



These verses demonstrate that perseverance is necessary. We agree on this. But these verses don't state your previous claim where you said:



The verses provided don't teach that 1) one needs to persevere to find out if they are saved —but to be saved! 2) "if you are truly saved, you will return to belief" [end of your quote].

Keep the faith! (Hebrews 10:38)

In Christ!

You, like many, put the cart before the horse. Those that hear and follow are those who are given ears to hear. That is accomplished by Christ when he turns our heart to him. Those are the same who cannot be plucked from His hand. They are the same who were given to Christ, by the Father, to be saved, of whom He will lose none. So if that is all true (and, Biblically, it is), then it will be know by perseverance. Some who believe do so on their own merits, which is not due to a change in heart but because they were swept up in emotion, or because that is the way they were raised while never having their own experience with Christ, and these will fall away never to return because it was self induced, not Christ induced. So, yes, because Christ never whispers in our ear that we are among those the Father has given him, then we know by the fact that we persevere.

 

[Jesus First]

You, like many, put the cart before the horse. Those that hear and follow are those who are given ears to hear. That is accomplished by Christ when he turns our heart to him. Those are the same who cannot be plucked from His hand. They are the same who were given to Christ, by the Father, to be saved, of whom He will lose none. So if that is all true (and, Biblically, it is), then it will be know by perseverance. Some who believe do so on their own merits, which is not due to a change in heart but because they were swept up in emotion, or because that is the way they were raised while never having their own experience with Christ, and these will fall away never to return because it was self induced, not Christ induced. So, yes, because Christ never whispers in our ear that we are among those the Father has given him, then we know by the fact that we persevere.

Brother, "A New Dawn",

When challenged to provide Biblical evidence, your latest response resorts to Calvinistic arguments. Your sincerity is not under scruninity by myself, nor do I question your salvation. It's my belief that most Calvinists are true believers and love Jesus Christ as you surely do. Lovingly, I encourage you to read Scripture without a Reformed overlay. It's not the Bible plus a theological system. The true faith for today is the first century Christianity that began in Acts and further unfolds throughout the New Testament. This is found by reading the Bible without a theological grid and allowing the Holy Spirit free rein over time in careful study.

Keep, guard and "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3b).

In the love of Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

Not so "clearly". What is clear is that eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Unfortunately, my explanation of what saving faith is was either ignored or misunderstood.


Free grace theology is closer to the Bible than any other theology.

I hope to reply by tomorrow night.

In Christ!

 

[A New Dawn]

Brother, "A New Dawn",

When challenged to provide Biblical evidence, your latest response resorts to Calvinistic arguments. Your sincerity is not under scruninity by myself, nor do I question your salvation. It's my belief that most Calvinists are true believers and love Jesus Christ as you surely do. Lovingly, I encourage you to read Scripture without a Reformed overlay. It's not the Bible plus a theological system. The true faith for today is the first century Christianity that began in Acts and further unfolds throughout the New Testament. This is found by reading the Bible without a theological grid and allowing the Holy Spirit free rein over time in careful study.

Keep, guard and "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3b).

In the love of Christ!

Brother, I was a dyed in the wool free-choicer who, after years of seeing only what I was taught to be the only way to interpret scripture, was finally gifted by the Lord to read the scriptures without the blinders of that mentality, and what I found was that it is God who decides who will be saved and Christ is given the task to save them all, and He does. So, in summary, I did just what you suggested. I read the Bible without any theological grid to guide me, and what I believe, I come to by the will of God.

 

[Dom Puccio]

That is sound advice. Stop focusing on yourself. Focus first on Christ, second on helping and encouraging other Christians, thirdly on sharing the Gospel with everyone. Self-centeredness is the bane of spiritual health.

Appreciate the words of encouragement. Thank you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

what I found was that it is God who decides who will be saved and Christ is given the task to save them all, and He does.

Of course it is God who decides who will be saved. And He has decided that He will save ONLY believers. The real issue is that the Calvinist doctrine of election logically concludes that God chooses who will believe, which is a different issue. There is no Scripture that teaches that God chooses who will believe.

btw, when people hear the gospel and place their faith in Christ, they are not "deciding to be saved". They are deciding to believe that Jesus will save them. I hope this clarifies the issue.

 

[Albion]

Of course it is God who decides who will be saved. And He has decided that He will save ONLY believers.

That's not to decide who will be saved. It's to leave it completely open.

The real issue is that the Calvinist doctrine of election logically concludes that God chooses who will believe, which is a different issue. There is no Scripture that teaches that God chooses who will believe.

There are many verses that teach this; and frankly, it's a bit insulting for opponents--no matter what the doctrinal issue may be--simply to dismiss all contrary Scriptural evidence with a "there is no Scripture...." statement. Deal with the proof texts that "Calvinists" present, if you can, but please don't think refusing to do so resolves the issue.