Question from an outsider

[Songspinner]

Question for you all... I was just wondering how you view the role of women in the church...leadership roles, teaching roles etc.

I'm not starting a debate...just curious

 

[BT]

Women have a definite role to play in the church. They are not permitted to hold the two offices (pastor, deacon). But there is much that they can do. They generally don't teach Bible studies (unless they are of women, in which case they are the best teachers). There are many aspects of ministry that women can serve in, the only exceptions are the two offices and/or any position that places them in authority over men.

 

[ZiSunka]

It's a question that can never be answered with complete authority, because the Bible isn't perfectly clear about what roles a woman can have. There were female decons and elders in the Bible, but Paul taught that he didn't like it when women spoke out during the service, probably because the Corinthian women were well-known for their rebelliousness in church matters. They were wild women of their times and didn't practice much self-control in church or anywhere else. They did whatever they had to to get attention, and they often disrupted services by trying to show off how smart they were by interrupting the pastor to "ask questions" designed to give them the opportunity to speak their mind on the subject. This irritated Paul and he told them to keep quiet and not try to teach. The men or Corinth, though, were often dominated by the wild women and were afraid to tell them to sit down and shut up so they could learn from the pastor.

Now imagine how irritating that must have been, to have these uncontrolled women, showing off their beauty by dressing like trollops, going to church to be seen and not to learn, constantly disrupting things. Of course Paul did the right thing by telling them to keep quiet, but that often gets misinterpreted to mean that all women should keep quiet all the time, and have no offices in the church.

If the women in your church are unruly and disruptive, then they need to heed Paul's harsh words. But if they are gentle and self-controlled, they can hold offices of deacon and elder, as other women in the Bible did. We are not in Corinth anymore.

 

[Songspinner]

on a tottal side bar...I love your avatar Lambslove

 

[Gold Dragon]

There are two major evangelical positions on this issue and they are represented by the following two groups.

Christians for Biblical Equality

The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

 

[ZiSunka]

on a tottal side bar...I love your avatar Lambslove

Thanks!

 

[ZiSunka]

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/about/biblical_equality.shtml

Great outline of the Biblical view of male/female equality!

7. The Bible teaches that at Pentecost the Holy Spirit came on men and women alike. Without distinction, the Holy Spirit indwells women and men, and sovereignly distributes gifts without preference as to gender (Acts 2:1-21; 1Cor 12:7, 11, 14:31).
8. The Bible teaches that both women and men are called to develop their spiritual gifts and to use them as stewards of the grace of God (1Peter 4:10-11). Both men and women are divinely gifted and empowered to minister to the whole Body of Christ, under His authority (Acts 1:14, 18:26, 21:9; Rom 16:1-7, 12-13, 15; Phil 4:2-3; Col 4:15; see also Mark 15:40-41, 16:1-7; Luke 8:1-3; John 20:17-18; compare also Old Testament examples: Judges 4:4-14, 5:7; 2Chron 34:22-28; Prov 31:30-31; Micah 6:4).

9. The Bible teaches that, in the New Testament economy, women as well as men exercise the prophetic, priestly and royal functions (Acts 2:17-18, 21:9; 1Cor 11:5; 1Peter 2:9-10; Rev 1:6, 5:10). Therefore, the few isolated texts that appear to restrict the full redemptive freedom of women must not be interpreted simplistically and in contradiction to the rest of Scripture, but their interpretation must take into account their relation to the broader teaching of Scripture and their total context (1Cor 11:2-16, 14:33-36; 1Tim 2:9-15).

10. The Bible defines the function of leadership as the empowerment of others for service rather than as the exercise of power over them (Matt 20:25-28, 23:8; Mark 10:42-45; John 13:13-17; Gal 5:13; 1Peter 5:2-3).

 

[BT]

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/about/biblical_equality.shtml

Great outline of the Biblical view of male/female equality!

Perhaps, but we're not talking about "equality"... all of us are equal. We're talking about pastors and deacons and if those offices are meant for women and men or only men.

7. The Bible teaches that at Pentecost the Holy Spirit came on men and women alike. Without distinction, the Holy Spirit indwells women and men, and sovereignly distributes gifts without preference as to gender (Acts 2:1-21; 1Cor 12:7, 11, 14:31).

The Bible does not say that at Pentecost the Holy Spirit came on men and women. That is an arugment from silence. The only attempt to validate that is that Peter declares a prophecy from Joel. But it does not say that there were women there. It does not say that there were not either. The Holy Spirit does indwell women and men, and does sovereignly distribute gifts without preference to gender. There is no argument about that. So why bring it up? To build a "straw man".. The argument is around offices in the church. Hey if you want to argue with God, be my guest. Just don't try to tell Him what He "says" just because you don't like it.

8. The Bible teaches that both women and men are called to develop their spiritual gifts and to use them as stewards of the grace of God (1Peter 4:10-11). Both men and women are divinely gifted and empowered to minister to the whole Body of Christ, under His authority (Acts 1:14, 18:26, 21:9; Rom 16:1-7, 12-13, 15; Phil 4:2-3; Col 4:15; see also Mark 15:40-41, 16:1-7; Luke 8:1-3; John 20:17-18; compare also Old Testament examples: Judges 4:4-14, 5:7; 2Chron 34:22-28; Prov 31:30-31; Micah 6:4).

I don't have the time or the inclination to go through all of these. There is no argument that women serve in the church (body of Christ). However I think if you read the references here in context you will find that what they've said they show... is laughable. Exegetically speaking of course.

9. The Bible teaches that, in the New Testament economy, women as well as men exercise the prophetic, priestly and royal functions (Acts 2:17-18, 21:9; 1Cor 11:5; 1Peter 2:9-10; Rev 1:6, 5:10). Therefore, the few isolated texts that appear to restrict the full redemptive freedom of women must not be interpreted simplistically and in contradiction to the rest of Scripture, but their interpretation must take into account their relation to the broader teaching of Scripture and their total context (1Cor 11:2-16, 14:33-36; 1Tim 2:9-15).

I love how some folks like to claim context and in the same sentence destroy the purpose of immediate context. Let's differentiate between the doctrinal and homiletical passages, from the prophetic etc.

The "few isolated texts" are those that directly deal with the specific offices. They don't have to be interpreted in any way other than plainly. They are not prophetic or poetic in nature. If I tell you "You have to graduate highschool to work at Walmart" you don't sit down and say, "Now what does that really mean, when taken in context with everything else he has said about either highschool or walmart." Puuuhlease. When Paul says that "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first...." etc (1 Tim. 2:12-) you don't have to say... Hrmm ok let's go see what happened during the Old Testament economy at the time of the judges... Look there is Deborah a female judge! Paul must not of meant that.. Let's try to be a bit more responsible with scripture shall we?

10. The Bible defines the function of leadership as the empowerment of others for service rather than as the exercise of power over them (Matt 20:25-28, 23:8; Mark 10:42-45; John 13:13-17; Gal 5:13; 1Peter 5:2-3).

I love how they skip over the "pastoral epistles" that define the offices that they wish to claim. We're not talking about having power over anyone. We're talking about two offices that God created and defined the qualifications for. We understand that leadership is "servant leadership", again this has nothing to do with male/female. Once again if you don't like what God says, keep looking around. You'll eventually find a church that will let you do whatever you want.

 

[mesue]

Actually, a woman may have a postion of authority in a church over a man, with the exception of pastor or deacon.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

This verse does nor say the head of a woman is a man, it says the man, a very specific man, her husband. Not just any ole man is my head, just my husband. And Christ is above us both.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

[ZiSunka]

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Those verses speak of the marital relationship, not the church relationship. A man is head of his own wife, not every woman.

 

[seebs]

Question for you all... I was just wondering how you view the role of women in the church...leadership roles, teaching roles etc.

I'm not starting a debate...just curious

Howdy! I go to a Friends meeting. Early Friends had separate meetings for men and women, because they didn't feel that women should be given inferior status in the meeting. Times have changed, and now there's just one unified meeting. In the past, separate meetings allowed women to exercise authority in a way society could accept. Now, a unified meeting allows true equality of members.

BTW, this goes further than many people think. For instance, we don't have separate men's and women's restrooms in the meeting house. There is no "separate but equal" here. There is only "equal".

 

[mesue]

Those verses speak of the marital relationship, not the church relationship. A man is head of his own wife, not every woman.

that's what I said, but it speaks for church too.

 

[ZiSunka]

that's what I said, but it speaks for church too.

How do you figure?

 

[mesue]

The man is my husband. I could never have a postion of authority over him i.e. Pastor or Deacon. I run the drama minstry. I am in authority over men.

 

[ZiSunka]

What about unmarried women like me. Since I don't have a husband, it's okay for me to have authority over other men as a pastor, right?

 

[seebs]

I don't see authority as an all-or-nothing thing. My mother-in-law promised to obey her husband, but I think he (or anyone else rational) would probably yield to her on theological issues, because she's an exceptionally discerning person.

 

[Songspinner]

Thanks for everyones answers...I see your just as diverse as the anglican Church...

But what is the "official" view on this ...Can you have women pastors? And is it different between Mennonite Church and Baptist? (Being that I'm Canadian i run into much more Mennonite Churches then Baptist)

 

[Gold Dragon]

Thanks for everyones answers...I see your just as diverse as the anglican Church...

But what is the "official" view on this ...Can you have women pastors? And is it different between Mennonite Church and Baptist? (Being that I'm Canadian i run into much more Mennonite Churches then Baptist)

Due to the congregationalist form of church governance used by Baptists and Anabaptists, there is no "official" view on this issue. Each local autonomous church is able to come up with its own position on this issue. Generally, more conservative Baptists like many that belong to the Southern Baptist Convention hold to the position held by the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.

In Toronto, I know that there are several Baptist and Mennonite pastors that head up the Toronto chapter of Christians for Biblical Equality. I also know that there are many Baptist churches that would defend the position held by the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. I would not be surprised if there are also Mennonite churches in the city that would share this position.

 

[FreeinChrist]

What i find interesting about groups that say 'A woman cannot teach a man' is that many of these groups support women in missions - women who in their work do teach men, though not as 'pastors or deacons'. But they teach classes, and they teach using the Bible, and they teach when asked questions, and person to person.

All of us, male and female, are called to be like Christ. "Biblical womanhood' is a made up term. We are to be like Christ. We all have God given gifts - Spiritual gifts - and we are to use those gifts for the glory of God. If I hear a male going off in a heresy because of lack of knowledge, I will provide the correct information (teach a male), which is usually scripture. I am not going to hold back what I am compelled to do as a follower of Christ in an effort to fit someone's picture of 'Biblical womanhood' but will use what Spiritual gifts I am given.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Bottom line is that no where in scripture does it ever say a woman preached the Word. There are no examples of any women preaching. Maybe teaching but NOT preaching. Big differance. If God wanted women to preach, he would have never cursed Eve......

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The devil still has his curse on him, why do we as woman think that our curse is somehow removed? Oh, I know, because the WORLD says it is.
God meant what he said, HE CURSED us! Now when we get to heaven, THEN woman can claim equal authority.

Great posts BT!

GEL