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Question From A New Christian

h2whoa

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Hello all.

As I said in the subject I am only a recent convert away from Atheism. The problem that I am having is that I am currently doing a PhD in Medical Genetics so I know quite a lot about the whole general area of genetics, Evolution and Darwin.

Now my issue is that, from what I have seen, the theory of Evolution is fundamentally sound. Now I'm not saying that it's not open to change or even that we understand it especially well but the central principle, I believe, is true.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?

You see, I believe that science and religion can actually co-exist. Just as the Computer Programmer uses code to create an application, I think that the Laws of science are like God's computer code to make this application (the World) work.

Am I alone in that belief?

H2
 

Nathan Poe

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h2whoa said:
Hello all.

As I said in the subject I am only a recent convert away from Atheism. The problem that I am having is that I am currently doing a PhD in Medical Genetics so I know quite a lot about the whole general area of genetics, Evolution and Darwin.

Now my issue is that, from what I have seen, the theory of Evolution is fundamentally sound. Now I'm not saying that it's not open to change or even that we understand it especially well but the central principle, I believe, is true.
Nobody's saying that it's not open to change. The Theory is as sound as it can be based on what we currently know.

Of course, tomorrow we may learn something new which throws what we currently know on its ear. That's what discovery is all about.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?
Of course. It's called Theistic Evolution and it's the belief held by the majority of Christians.

My understanding of "Christian" (back when I was one) was someone who believes that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, come to Earth to forgive mankind of their sins.

Now, I don't see anything in that definition that requires a literal, word-for-word belief in the book of Genesis (or any other part of the Bible, for that matter, but that's another story).

The Bible is not, nor was ever meant to be, a step-by-step science textbook. And considering how relatively few people understand evolution today, it's not unreasonable that it would need to be "simplified" for the Ancient Hebrews to know what they had to.

Or to put it more simply, Genesis tells who and why, science shows how.

You see, I believe that science and religion can actually co-exist. Just as the Computer Programmer uses code to create an application, I think that the Laws of science are like God's computer code to make this application (the World) work.

Am I alone in that belief?

H2
Not even close to alone. Welcome to the boards.
 
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bevets

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Evolution makes God superfluous. God makes evolution superfluous.

All we can say about such beliefs is, firstly, that they are superfluous and, secondly, that they assume the existence of the main thing we want to explain, namely, organized complexity. ~ Richard Dawkins

Occasionally, a scientist discouraged by the consistent failure of theories purporting to explain some problem like the first appearance of life will suggest that perhaps supernatural creation is a tenable hypothesis in this one instance. Sophisticated naturalists instantly recoil with horror, because they know that there is no way to tell God when he has to stop. If God created the first organism, then how do we know he didn't do the same thing to produce all those animal groups that appear so suddenly in the Cambrian rocks? Given the existence of a designer ready and willing to do the work, why should we suppose that random mutations and natural selection are responsible for such marvels of engineering as the eye and the wing? ~ Phillip Johnson
 
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Didaskomenos

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Welcome to the boards! :wave: Most of the people here are evolutionists, both Christian and non. I myself am also a theistic evolutionist. Using your knowledge of science to inform you how to interpret the Bible will offend some who prefer their own literalistic approach. You know you aren't a part of an atheistic conspiracy, as some anti-evolutionists will tell you. It's all about how to interpret the Bible.
 
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Dal M.

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Phillip Johnson said:
Given the existence of a designer ready and willing to do the work, why should we suppose that random mutations and natural selection are responsible for such marvels of engineering as the eye and the wing?

We shouldn't suppose that "the eye" and "the wing" evolved. Rather, we are unavoidably drawn to the conclusion that whether or not a celestial hand was working behind the scenes to arrange for the existence of eyes and wings, evolution was the mechanism directly responsible for their development.

(Of course, there've been a lot of different versions of "the eye" and "the wing" throughout history. If God had been magically creating them from scratch each time, you'd think there'd be more evidence for a Common Designer than for Common Ancestry; for example, He could've given us squidlike eyes instead of eyes with blind spots on the retinas like all other mammals have.)
 
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hussbob

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The theroy of evolution is not sound. It is highly flawed. It relies on an addition of information to genetics to create the lifeforms. No observational science has ever observed an addition of information to the genetics ever. Mutations etc can alter the genes to allow various things such a speacialization and adaptation but this usually involves a loss of information and at the very most the amount of information remains the same. Nothing in christianity or the bible denies the exsistance of natural selection and adaptation (in fact we can observe this ourselves with pedeigree dogs etc) but the evolution involving an addition of information to the genes is unlikly.

Therefore molecules to man evolution is highly flawed.

Also the results from experiments into origin are biased from the outset. If you belive in evolution and interpret the results as such then you will fix results to suit yourself and the the bible follows.

If however you use the bible as the bases for how you interpret the information then you paint an entirely different picture one which fits both the evidence and the bible. The evidence doesn't even need to be twisted it just fits.

We all think of evolutionary theroy as being relitively new and ground breaking but it is not. It stems from pagan belifes. Wallace (thought of as co-founder of evolution alongside darwin) studied spiritulism and from here came to the conclusion of evolution.

Some of you may like to read Isiah 29 13-16, 1 Tim 6:20, 1john 2:18 and 1 corinthians 1 there are countless others as well.

Bearing in mind Jesus did not question Genesis in fact if you read John, Jesus created the world. Now Jesus came to dispell many mis interpretations etc. You think he would have started on Genesis if it were wrong but he didn't.

1 In the beginning was the word (jesus), and the word was with God, and the word was God. (trinity of father, son, holy ghost being God)
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him ALL things were made...... now look at Genesis.
 
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Mistermystery

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h2whoa said:
Hello all.

As I said in the subject I am only a recent convert away from Atheism. The problem that I am having is that I am currently doing a PhD in Medical Genetics so I know quite a lot about the whole general area of genetics, Evolution and Darwin.

Now my issue is that, from what I have seen, the theory of Evolution is fundamentally sound. Now I'm not saying that it's not open to change or even that we understand it especially well but the central principle, I believe, is true.
Welcome to the forums.

First I want to direct you to here: http://www.christianforums.com/t873617
See how 0 people have voted for option #2? Noone is saying that Evolution isn't open for change.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution?
Of course! You can be a christian evolutionist, or a theistic evolutionist. You believe that God created the diversity of species with evolution as His tool.

Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?
It's sure it's a methaphor. Evidence points to that.

Am I alone in that belief?
Oh God no. Most Christians in the world think that way, especially here in Yurp :)
 
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Tomk80

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misquote from bevets said:
All we can say about such beliefs is, firstly, that they are superfluous and, secondly, that they assume the existence of the main thing we want to explain, namely, organized complexity. ~ Richard Dawkins
Yes Bevets, we are aware that Dawkins is an atheist. However, with this he is threading outside of the realm of science. This is his opinion, and the opinions of many christian evolutionists differ from him. Dawkings is a brilliant scientist, but he can be wrong. His writings are not absolute truth, nor are they some kind of 'gospel for the evolutionist'. As I said before, quit the quote mining for once, it has absolutely zilch effect.
 
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Split Rock

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h2whoa said:
Hello all.

As I said in the subject I am only a recent convert away from Atheism. The problem that I am having is that I am currently doing a PhD in Medical Genetics so I know quite a lot about the whole general area of genetics, Evolution and Darwin.

Now my issue is that, from what I have seen, the theory of Evolution is fundamentally sound. Now I'm not saying that it's not open to change or even that we understand it especially well but the central principle, I believe, is true.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?

You see, I believe that science and religion can actually co-exist. Just as the Computer Programmer uses code to create an application, I think that the Laws of science are like God's computer code to make this application (the World) work.

Am I alone in that belief?

H2

There are a number of Christians on this forum that have no trouble believing that God used evolution to create.

While I am not certain as to whether the bible was truely inspired by God, I am certain that the details of Genesis were not taken directly from God... there are too many mistakes and contradictions (for example, plants being created before the Sun, and the differences in the order of creation between Genesis 1 and 2). The creation stories in the bible are meant to relay theological content rather than scientific.

For example, I consider that the story of how Eve was created from one of Adam's ribs shows how a man is incomplete without a woman (she is a part of him), rather than showing the historical method that God used to create the first woman. Taking this story as an allegory frees one from the obvious problem that cloning a person from Adam's rib will result in another Adam (with a XY chromosome profile), rather than a woman.
 
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Mistermystery

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P.s. keep asking questions. As you might have noticed we've got people here who want you to listen to them, and to them only, because they are somehow the arbiter of truth... I suggest that you keep on learning by asking questions, and we will do our best to awnser everything as good as we can.
 
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Tomk80

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hussbob said:
The theroy of evolution is not sound. It is highly flawed. It relies on an addition of information to genetics to create the lifeforms. No observational science has ever observed an addition of information to the genetics ever. Mutations etc can alter the genes to allow various things such a speacialization and adaptation but this usually involves a loss of information and at the very most the amount of information remains the same. Nothing in christianity or the bible denies the exsistance of natural selection and adaptation (in fact we can observe this ourselves with pedeigree dogs etc) but the evolution involving an addition of information to the genes is unlikly.

Therefore molecules to man evolution is highly flawed.
Please define information and how it relates to genetics. Please explain how mutations occur and how they can only decrease the amount of information as related to genetics. In other words, please show me that you know what you are talking about, because after reading the above I think you don't.

Asides from that. 'Molecules to man evolution' is a strawman of the worst kind. Fan of Kent Hovind by any chance?
 
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caravelair

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hussbob said:
The theroy of evolution is not sound. It is highly flawed. It relies on an addition of information to genetics to create the lifeforms. No observational science has ever observed an addition of information to the genetics ever. Mutations etc can alter the genes to allow various things such a speacialization and adaptation but this usually involves a loss of information and at the very most the amount of information remains the same. Nothing in christianity or the bible denies the exsistance of natural selection and adaptation (in fact we can observe this ourselves with pedeigree dogs etc) but the evolution involving an addition of information to the genes is unlikly.

Therefore molecules to man evolution is highly flawed.

sorry my friend, but you are totally incorrect about this. here is an excerpt from an essay i wrote on the subject:

Evolution was much easier to attack in Darwin’s time, especially since the mechanism of inheritance was not yet known. Since then, evolution by mutation and natural selection has been directly observed both in the lab and the field, and corroborated by genetic studies. As a result, even creationists have been forced to accept that evolution does occur, at least on a small scale. So now, in order to deny macroevolution or common descent, the creationist must argue that the evolution we observe today is not the type of modification that would add up to large-scale morphological change. Perhaps the most commonly used argument today is that mutations do not add “information” to the genome, and that this is required for common descent via mutation and selection. The aim of this paper is to address this general argument, and show that it is not valid.
Since the information argument is considered by creationists to be quite important, and is quite commonly used, it therefore deserves special attention. Phillip E. Johnson is a professor of law, and author of well-known creationist books such as Darwin On Trial. In an interview with the Christian magazine Touchstone, Johnson commented on the argument in question:
“You have said there is no natural explanation for the rise of genetic information. How important is that question in the debate?

PJ: The Wedge of Truth is all about those issues. The scientific key is, "No natural processes create genetic information." As soon as we get that out, there’s only one way the debate can go because Darwinists aren’t going to come up with a mechanism… Once you get that in the debate, then we will be poised for a metaphysical and intellectual reversal that is every bit as profound as the one with Copernicus.” (5).

Clearly, the argument is one worth addressing. Either it says something very important, or it is misleading those who think it does.
Before addressing the argument, it is important to understand exactly what it implies. It would not refute common descent, because the case for common descent is independent of any specific mechanism. That is, the evidence in support of common descent does not assume the validity of mutation and natural selection as a mechanism for that change (15). Furthermore, the inability to gain information would not prevent all types of macroevolutionary change. For example, it is unclear that the information content of other mammals’ genomes is any less than that of our own. So even if we assume mutations cannot add information to the genome, mutation and natural selection would not be prevented from successfully explaining macroevolutionary changes such as that from early apes to modern humans. So what would the argument tell us, if it were indeed correct? Information theorist David J.C. MacKay says “Evolution has been happening on earth for about the last 109 years. Undeniably, information has been acquired during this process.” (7: p269). This is something that is generally agreed upon. So what the argument would show, if it were correct, is that mutation and selection could never sufficiently account for the descent of all modern species from a common ancestor.
It should be noted at this point, that it is not at all necessary to consider “information” to examine the change of genomic properties in question. What we’re really talking about here is how the complexity of the genome can change. In an article published in Science called The Origins of Genome Complexity,
“The ~100 fully sequenced eubacterial and archaeal genomes contain between 350 and 6000 genes, packed into 0.6 to 7.6 megabases (Mb)… all well-characterized genomes of animals and plants contain more than 13,000 genes in at least 100Mb… Accompanying the increase in gene number in multicellular species is an expansion in the size and number of intragenic spacers (introns) and a dramatic proliferation of mobile genetic elements.” (3: p1401).

No one is claiming this list to be exhaustive of the differences in genomes, but it is interesting to note that these types of changes do indeed occur.
There are a few ways that gene number can be increased, including “Molecular mechanisms such as illegitimate recombination and LINE element mediated 3' transduction underlying exon shuffling” (6). Another mechanism is duplication mutation. It is estimated that 15,000 of the 40,000 genes in the human genome were acquired in this way (12). In this type of mutation, we get a second copy of some functional gene. Although this new gene will initially be the same as the gene it was copied from, “Preservation of both members of a duplicate pair can be promoted when one member of the pair acquires a beneficial mutation at the expense of an original essential function retained by the other (neofunctionalization).” (3: p1401). So, subsequent mutation of the new gene can result in a novel gene, while preserving the increased total number of genes. For example, from the pancreatic ribonuclease gene (RNASE1) in a leaf-eating monkey, a duplication and subsequent mutation resulted in a second gene (RNASE1B), which functions differently than its parent gene (11). Other examples abound in the primary literature, as an online search of the PubMed database will show.
Introns are non-coding sections of DNA that occur within a gene. Introns are found between exons, which code for functional domains of the protein corresponding to the gene. The size of an intron can be increased by an insertion mutation. Introns are non-coding, so changing an intron in this way may not affect the protein produced by the gene at all. There is not much certainty about how new introns are introduced, but among other theories, there is evidence for the insertion of new introns in certain genes. For example, there is evidence for the insertion of an intron into the sex-determining gene, SRY, of dasyurid marsupials. The scientists who determined this say “[their] data demonstrate that introns may be inserted as spliced units within a developmentally crucial gene without disrupting its function.” (10: p1653). The total number of introns in the genome can also be increased by duplication of genes with introns.
It is also interesting to note that a multicellular form of the green alga, Chlorella vulgaris, has evolved in the lab from the usual unicellular form (2).
So we have seen specific examples of the type of change that occurred during the evolution of modern species from our prokaryotic ancestors. We will now examine whether information theory has any implications for this problem.
By this point, an important question should be coming to mind. What is “information”, exactly? The intuitive meaning is obvious, but to talk about changes in information content, we need a formal, quantifiable definition. This question deserves special attention, because the validity of the information argument is dependant on how we define information. Unfortunately, our question has no simple answer. The information content of something depends on how information is defined, and there is no one right way to do that. A definition may be useful in answering one question, but meaningless to another. In his book Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms, MacKay poses the question of why some organisms reproduce sexually, rather than asexually. By MacKay’s model, asexually reproducing populations can gain 1 bit of information per generation, while the number of bits that a sexually reproducing population can accumulate is up to the square root of the size of the genome (7: p269). However, creationists are unlikely to define information the way MacKay did in his example.
Unfortunately, most creationists use the term “information” without explicitly stating what information is. This is often the main strength of the information argument for creationists. Without a formal definition of information, we can’t really say what type of change in the genome would represent increased information and in turn, it is then difficult to provide an example of such a change by mutation. One should be weary of any argument involving “information” content where the term is not explicitly defined.
Even without a strict definition of information, something can be said about the information argument. There is no shortage of creationist claims that certain mutations represent a loss of information. This exposes a problem with the information argument, because for any mutation, the opposite mutation is also possible, and in many cases, equally likely. So if a mutation can result in a loss of information, then surely the opposite mutation would mean a gain of information; if information can be lost, it can certainly be gained as well.
Dr. Lee Spetner has been more cooperative than other creationists in defining information. In an online exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max, Spetner says “I thought it rather obvious that a mutation that destroys the functionality of a gene (such as a repressor gene) is a loss of information. I also thought it rather obvious that a mutation that reduces the specificity of an enzyme is also a loss of information.” (13). This gives us an idea of what is considered to be a gain of information. If the loss of gene functionality is a loss of information, surely gaining a new functional gene would be a gain of information. An example of this has already been provided, but there are others that are of interest. For example, a frame shift mutation in a Japanese bacterium gave it the ability to digest nylon waste (16). Since the bacteria did not previously have this ability, this is a new biological function, and thus represents an increase in information. Spetner agrees, but contends that the mutation was not a random occurrence (14). Creationist organization Answers in Genesis claims that because the gene is on a plasmid, it has likely always existed, and was just transferred to the bacteria from another strain (1). However, nylon is an artificial compound that did not exist until it was invented in the 30’s, and bacteria with the gene require nylon to survive. The gene, therefore, could not have existed before the 30’s. This example is especially interesting in that the nylon digesting ability has given these bacteria an entirely new ecological niche to inhabit. One in which they have no competition but each other!
A well-known, good example of increased protein specificity is the evolution of a mutant version of a protein called Apolipoprotein AI (Apo-AI) in a small Italian community. The new version of the protein, Apo-AIM (the M is for Milano) is associated with reduced risk of arteriosclerosis, heart attack, and stroke.
“Apo-AI is a lipid-binding protein and is the major component of High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) particles, which play an important role in removing cholesterol from cells. Subsequent detailed research of the Apo-AIM mutation has demonstrated that it has improved biological function that directly contributes to lowering the incidence of cardiovascular disease in the individuals carrying it.” (8).

It works by actively stimulating cholesterol removal from cells (8). It also prevents some of the inflammatory damage of arteriosclerosis because of its antioxidant ability (8). Incidentally, the antioxidant ability is a new biological function, not possessed by the original Apo-AI protein (8). It has been shown that “Apo-AIM is 1) of a more complex tertiary structure 2) more stable and 3) activates cholesterol efflux more effectively than Apo-AI. Furthermore, Apo-AIM has an antioxidant activity not present in Apo-AI that is sequence and substrate specific.” (8). The mutation therefore represents increased specificity, and consequently is an increase in information by Spetner’s standards.

this demonstrates that your argument is invalid.

i will have to post my references separately, since otherwise this post is too long...
 
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caravelair

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references...

(1) Answers in Genesis. “That depends on what your definition of ‘information’ is”. Answers in Genesis. [Online]. Available: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative7-24-2000.asp, Jan. 12, 2004.

(2) Boraas, Martin E. and Boxhorn, Joseph E. and Seale, Dianne B. 1998. “Phagotrophy by a flagellate selects for colonial prey: A possible origin of multicellularity”. Evolutionary Ecology. 12 (2): 153-164. Also available online: http://www.kluweronline.com/oasis.htm/171545, Jan. 12, 2004.

(3) Conery, John S. and Lynch, Michael. 2003. “The Origins of Genome Complexity”. Science. 302: 1401-04.

(4) Isaak, Mark. Ed. “Index to Creationist Claims”. The Talk.Origins Archive. 2003. [Online]. Available: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111.html, Jan. 12, 2004.

(5) Interview with Phillip E. Johnson. Touchstone Magazine. 2002. Available online:
http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/15.5docs/15-5pg40.html



(6) Long, M. 2001. “Evolution of Novel Genes”. Current Opinion in Genetics & Development. Dec. 11(6): 673-80. Reproduced in PubMed. [Online]. Available: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11682312&dopt=Abstract, Jan. 12, 2004.

(7) MacKay, David J.C. Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms. Cambridge University Press, 2003. Also available online: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~mackay/itprnn/book.pdf.

(8) Musgrave, Ian, and Pirie-Shepherd, Steven, and Theobald, Douglas. 2003. “Apolipoprotein AI Mutations and Information”. The Talk.Origins Archive. [Online]. Available: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html, Jan. 12, 2004.

(9) National Center for Science Education. “Voices for Evolution” National Center for Science Education. [Online]. Available: http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=2, Jan. 12, 2004.

(10) Nei, Masatoshi. Ed. “De novo insertion of an intron into the mammalian sex determining gene, SRY”. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA. 1998 February 17; 95 (4): 1653–1657. [Online]. Available: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9465071&dopt=Abstract, Jan. 12, 2004.

(11) Rosenberg, Helene F. and Zhang, Jianzhi and Zhang, Ya-ping. “Adaptive evolution of a duplicated pancreatic ribonuclease gene in a leaf-eating monkey”. Nature. 30 no. 4: 411-415. [Online]. Available: http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ng/journal/v30/n4/abs/ng852.html, Jan. 12, 2004.

(12) Ross-Flannigan, Nancy. Ed. “How gene duplication helps in adapting to changing environments”. University of Michigan News and Information Services. [Online]. Available: http://www.umich.edu/~newsinfo/Releases/2002/Feb02/r022802b.html, Jan. 12, 2004.

(13) Spetner, Lee. “Lee Spetner/Edward Max Dialogue”. The True.Origins Archive. [Online]. 2002. Available: http://www.trueorigins.org/spetner2.asp, Jan. 12, 2004.

(14) Spetner, Lee. “The Nylon Bug”. [Online]. 2002. Available: http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id89.htm, Jan. 12, 2004.

(15) Theobald, Douglas, PhD. “29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent”. The Talk.Origins Archive. [Online] http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/, Jan. 12, 2004.

(16) Thomas, Dave. “Evolution and Information”. New Mexicans for Science and Reason. [Online]. Available http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm, Jan. 12, 2004.
 
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Didaskomenos

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h2whoa said:
What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?
I just caught this paragraph. That's a pretty good assessment. The Genesis creation accounts were written in the style of etiological mythology, and their purpose was to correct pagan beliefs of Who was responsible for and in charge of their universe.
 
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h2whoa

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hussbob said:
The theroy of evolution is not sound. It is highly flawed. It relies on an addition of information to genetics to create the lifeforms. No observational science has ever observed an addition of information to the genetics ever. Mutations etc can alter the genes to allow various things such a speacialization and adaptation but this usually involves a loss of information and at the very most the amount of information remains the same. Nothing in christianity or the bible denies the exsistance of natural selection and adaptation (in fact we can observe this ourselves with pedeigree dogs etc) but the evolution involving an addition of information to the genes is unlikly.

Therefore molecules to man evolution is highly flawed.

Also the results from experiments into origin are biased from the outset. If you belive in evolution and interpret the results as such then you will fix results to suit yourself and the the bible follows.
You're quite wrong actually. Bacteria frequently transfer genetic information from species to another, resulting in a net increase in genetic information in the organism. In more complex organisms DNA has the ability to replicate specific parts meaning that there are two copies of the same bit. One bit can then mutate into something else whilst leaving an unaffected copy behind. This also results in a net gain of genetic information.

As for saying that experiments into origin are biased from the outset, I think that's something of a sweeping generalisation. I think that the most biased are those who assume that people can't investigate things and accept what they see rather than see what they accept.

H2
 
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Nathan Poe

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h2whoa said:
You're quite wrong actually. Bacteria frequently transfer genetic information from species to another, resulting in a net increase in genetic information in the organism. In more complex organisms DNA has the ability to replicate specific parts meaning that there are two copies of the same bit. One bit can then mutate into something else whilst leaving an unaffected copy behind. This also results in a net gain of genetic information.

As for saying that experiments into origin are biased from the outset, I think that's something of a sweeping generalisation. I think that the most biased are those who assume that people can't investigate things and accept what they see rather than see what they accept.

H2
Lol... I was just about to post a response to the strawmen, misrepresentations, and outright lies in the statement you answered, but it looks like you beat me to it.

I think you'll do just fine around here.:wave:

But can you imagine how many new Christians have been sent scurrying back to Atheism because they were lead to believe that "the Faith" requires swallowing the hogwash you responded to?
 
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hussbob

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Split Rock said:
While I am not certain as to whether the bible was truely inspired by God, I am certain that the details of Genesis were not taken directly from God... there are too many mistakes and contradictions (for example, plants being created before the Sun, and the differences in the order of creation between Genesis 1 and 2). The creation stories in the bible are meant to relay theological content rather than scientific.
But light was created before plants. Plants don't need the sun they need light. Just so happen that now the light is supplied by the sun.
 
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