Question From A New Christian

[gluadys]

If he is that detailed then he can cause things to adapt to their environment and do what he pleases with his creations.

And the way God causes things to adapt to their environment is to let them evolve. Or do you know of any other route to adaptation?

 

[h2whoa]

I think that the sad thing about this is that Creationists attack with such zealotry the idea that someone that is a Christian is also an evolutionist.

Scientists don't have some hidden agenda to destroy religion, you know. By seeing the intricacy that the world was made with just inspires more awe in what God did. And yes, there is evidence to show that evolution is a viable theory. The reason we call things theory is not because we think that the whole premise is shaky. It's because the mechanisms and fine details are still being investigated. Not because the whole premise is flawed.

It does make me sad that Creationists almost seem to be denying Gods power in denying how brilliant the design of Life. It makes me sad that Creationists seem to deny that God would have had the Wisdom to present to pre-scientists, a history of Creationsists that was Truthful but not as detailed as it could be. Would Moses have understood the astrophysical aspects of the Universe if God had presented them? Unlikely.

And I'm sorry but if someone were to put a gun of belief against my head and say "You can only believe in Evolution or The Bible. What is it to be?" I would have to say Evolution. The fact is though, no one has the right to say that Evolution is counter to God's glory. I believe it enhances it.

To deny understanding seems a worryingly blinkered thing to do. It keeps those who consider Faith away. It has been one of the issues that I have wrestled with. Then I realised to be a Christian you don't have to close your eyes to Truth. Rather the opposite actually. Where in the Bible does it talk about DNA, so essential to life? Where in the Bible does it say that plants harvest energy from the sun via photosynthesis? Where does it explain these basic premises of life? The answer is that it doesn't. However these are not fundamental to the core of Christianity, and the Bible's lack of mention is not in any way a proof of fallicy. Rather, it was not necessary to understand these things to be a Christian. However, understanding these things does not make you less Christian. These things are how life works not why it does. And the same is true for evolution.

God revealed the why. If He had revealed the how as well, the Bible would be 10 times it's size and the message of God would be lost to detail. But that doesn't mean that the detail is not there for those who wis to search for it.

H2

 

[Mistermystery]

To cybershark, please don't reply to this message. I can't delete it anymore, but I don't want to derail the thread. if you want to talk about this, make a new thread about it, or give me a pm, but let's stick to evolution in this thread.

Whoops... too late.

Is okay. now could you please awnser my post #76?

 

[Mistermystery]

it's just that I don't agree with the Theory of Evolution.

That's right, it's the theory of evolution. Don't make the slippery slope argument that evolution is "just a theory" though, or else you will have to say that "germ theory, theory of gravity, and what not" are all "just theories".

And correct me if I'm wrong but did Darwin not refute some of his own conclusions before he died?

The deathbed conversion is indeed incorrect, and also irrelevant. Because evidence has shown to the conterary that evolution has happend, and still is happening today. It doesn't matter if einstein himself tohught that the universal constant was incorrect, it turns out (at least it seems so) to be correct.

I love studying in depth into Christian Science (the fields are extremely compatible - but evolution isn't)

What's Christian science? Does that mean that you place the conclusions before the evidence? then it's not science my friend, it's biased thinking.

and several "neutral" scientists should we call them have seen order and complexity in the universe that led them to the NATURAL conclusion that there must be a creator out there some where!

Science does not equal atheism, science does not equal atheism, science does not equal atheism.

Evolution does not equal atheism, Evolution does not equal atheism, Evolution does not equal atheism.

Why would God create us from monkeys when he could have just made us like Genesis says?

****ing hell, How many times do I have to say this? The theory of evolution does not say we've evolved FROM monkeys, we SHARE a common ancestor.

 

[Mistermystery]

The Bible did not teach that the world is flat. I know that there were those that believe that it did, and I know there are those that would love to believe that it was the Bible that spawned the notion. The Bible is clear the Earth as is a circle is round. It has never stated that the Earth is flat.

I'm getting pretty tired of this:

How can you even think that a circle

equals to a spherical form>?

While you of course ignore the fact that they knew the diffrence between the two. Let me quote this again:

Re: Flat earth and the bible:

Job 26:10 is "He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end."

Isaiah 40:21-22 - "the circle of the Earth."

Revelations 7:1: "... things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the Earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the Earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. "

Job 38:13 "That it might take hold of the Ends of the Earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? "

Jeremiah 16:19 "O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the Ends of the Earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

Daniel 4:11 "The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the Ends of the Earth." (p.s. no tree could ever grow so tall that it was seen everywhere)

Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them." (p.s. one fixed point to see every kingdom in the world? sounds unpossible to me, eventhough this one can be discarted as a vision).


My personal favorite is job 38:14 though:" The earth takes shape like clay under a seal. "

Have you ever seen a spherical seal?

I thought not.

Some people who are using Isaiah 40, carefully ignore other verses of Isaiah. They point to the verse (To whom then will ye liken God? ....It is he that sitteth upon the circle (chuwg) of the earth) which they think shows that the Bible writers knew the earth was a sphere.

They believe that the word "circle" could actually mean "sphere," since both are round, but they ignore Isaiah's use of a different word in another verse where he speaks of a "ball." (He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a BALL (duwr) into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. (Isaiah 22:18) )

Ball is closer to a sphere then a circle will ever be. If the Bible writer had meant for us to believe that "circle of the earth" meant that the earth was round, the writer would have used the Hebrew word for "ball," which is duwr. The fact that Isaiah didn't use duwr shows that he wasn't trying to tell us the earth was like a ball.

 

[Jet Black]

A guy at my church has been doing research and he has concluded that humans and dinosaurs could have co-existed, but they just weren't in the same part of the world as were the people of the day.

based on what? why are there no human fossils below the KT boundary?

 

[Mistermystery]

based on what? why are there no human fossils below the KT boundary?

Seconded.

 

[Jet Black]

Seconded.

I'd also be inclined to ask if this researcher even knows what the KT boundary is, and why there is so much iridium in it. This "Guy at my church" thing is like the vernacular "I heard from a guy at the pub that....."

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

To true.

Kudos, h2whoa. You have clearly put a lot more thought into this than many people who've been Christians for years. More shame on them.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I think that the sad thing about this is that Creationists attack with such zealotry the idea that someone that is a Christian is also an evolutionist.

You've learned the first important lesson: The difference between "Creationist" and "Christian."

All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles. Many creationists will forget this, and pray you do too...

Scientists don't have some hidden agenda to destroy religion, you know. By seeing the intricacy that the world was made with just inspires more awe in what God did. And yes, there is evidence to show that evolution is a viable theory. The reason we call things theory is not because we think that the whole premise is shaky. It's because the mechanisms and fine details are still being investigated. Not because the whole premise is flawed.

A creationist's worst nightmare: A christian who understands exactly what science is and is not!

It does make me sad that Creationists almost seem to be denying Gods power in denying how brilliant the design of Life. It makes me sad that Creationists seem to deny that God would have had the Wisdom to present to pre-scientists, a history of Creationsists that was Truthful but not as detailed as it could be.

You think you're sad now...

Would Moses have understood the astrophysical aspects of the Universe if God had presented them? Unlikely.

It does seem rather pointless to go into advanced biology to a people who hadn't quite discovered the science of indoor plumbing. One thing at a time!

I said it once before: Jesus used Genesis as a teaching tool because had he tried to explain genetics, natural selection, and biodiversity to the multitudes, they probably would've crucified him that much sooner.

And I'm sorry but if someone were to put a gun of belief against my head and say "You can only believe in Evolution or The Bible. What is it to be?" I would have to say Evolution. The fact is though, no one has the right to say that Evolution is counter to God's glory. I believe it enhances it.

And yet that ultimatum has driven more people away from Christianity than any Atheist ever could... or would even want to.

To deny understanding seems a worryingly blinkered thing to do. It keeps those who consider Faith away. It has been one of the issues that I have wrestled with. Then I realised to be a Christian you don't have to close your eyes to Truth. Rather the opposite actually. Where in the Bible does it talk about DNA, so essential to life? Where in the Bible does it say that plants harvest energy from the sun via photosynthesis? Where does it explain these basic premises of life? The answer is that it doesn't. However these are not fundamental to the core of Christianity, and the Bible's lack of mention is not in any way a proof of fallicy.

Precisely. Because the Bible is not the center of Christianity; Christ is.

Rather, it was not necessary to understand these things to be a Christian. However, understanding these things does not make you less Christian. These things are how life works not why it does. And the same is true for evolution.

I like you already. You make sense.

God revealed the why. If He had revealed the how as well, the Bible would be 10 times it's size and the message of God would be lost to detail. But that doesn't mean that the detail is not there for those who wis to search for it.

And have you noticed what's been going on the past few pages? Nothing but Biblical details! Can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[Data]

I'd also be inclined to ask if this researcher even knows what the KT boundary is, and why there is so much iridium in it. This "Guy at my church" thing is like the vernacular "I heard from a guy at the pub that....."

...has done some reseach on the topic. Yup, Dr. Hovind has shown that...

 

[Nathan Poe]

I'd also be inclined to ask if this researcher even knows what the KT boundary is, and why there is so much iridium in it. This "Guy at my church" thing is like the vernacular "I heard from a guy at the pub that....."

Ooo... I love urban legends. Everybody knows the one about the poodle in the microwave, right?

 

[Tomk80]

Ooo... I love urban legends. Everybody knows the one about the poodle in the microwave, right?

Of course, can't live without that one.

 

[larry lunchpail]

about the geneology, it cant be the base 60 like was mentioned. correct me if im wrong but 120 years would be written as 20 in base 60, 2X60^1+0X60^0, and if they wrote 900 years they would mean 32400 years but i could very well be wrong seeing as i barely passed grade 12 math hehe

but it also cant be the decimal system either, simply because it want invented yet! so if thats the ONLY way to come up with a young yearth (it is, isnt it? i think so) then the system they used is the most important thing to consider, what if the system they used brought adam to about 1000 BC? then what? hehe actually i think im gonna look into this more.

 

[larry lunchpail]

what is this health thing and why am i so low??

 

[Hydra009]

what is this health thing and why am i so low??

When you stop posting or post infrequently, the health bar decreases, but it'll never hit zero. It doesn't really do anything except show other people how often you post at CF.

 

[larry lunchpail]

i guess theres no way of coding a lurking meter? hehe

 

[princess_ballet]

Hello all.

As I said in the subject I am only a recent convert away from Atheism. The problem that I am having is that I am currently doing a PhD in Medical Genetics so I know quite a lot about the whole general area of genetics, Evolution and Darwin.

Now my issue is that, from what I have seen, the theory of Evolution is fundamentally sound. Now I'm not saying that it's not open to change or even that we understand it especially well but the central principle, I believe, is true.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?

You see, I believe that science and religion can actually co-exist. Just as the Computer Programmer uses code to create an application, I think that the Laws of science are like God's computer code to make this application (the World) work.

Am I alone in that belief?

H2

I would read through all of the posts in this thread, but that would take forever, and time is a gift.

I'm going into genetics too, how cool.

Anyway, about your question, no you are not alone. It is called thesistic evolution. Fundamental Christians do not believe in it, but believe it or not, many Catholics believe in it.

It is basically saying that while evoluton may have occured, that God has his hand on the whole matter. He started the procress, but since He knows all, he knew what the end product was going to be and could just "let it go" and go through the progress.

Makes sense right?

I think so.

Hope this helps at least a little.

 

[Nathan Poe]

It is basically saying that while evoluton may have occured, that God has his hand on the whole matter. He started the procress, but since He knows all, he knew what the end product was going to be and could just "let it go" and go through the progress.

I like the "rolling a snowball down a hill" analogy myself. God didn't have to push it every inch of the way...

 

[hussbob]

Ok I'm going to come back in here with a question.

Is it not commonly belived Moses wrote Genesis?

Didn't Moses grow up in Egypt?

Did the Egyptians use a base 10 numbering system?

And lastly is the Hebrew numbering system not base 10?


I am not allowed to post link yet to show you the web page refering to a base 10 Hebrew system.