Question for Mormons about centrality of Jesus' death

[zijincheng]

I've been searching the interwebs for this question, but most of the articles deal with topics about using the KJV and other books instead of this question.

Here's my question:

Do Mormons believe that in order to be saved, the only way is to believe that Jesus died for our sins and ask for forgiveness for our sins? (Ephesians 2:8-9)?

Hopefully that was clear enough.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I've been searching the interwebs for this question, but most of the articles deal with topics about using the KJV and other books instead of this question.

Here's my question:

Do Mormons believe that in order to be saved, the only way is to believe that Jesus died for our sins and ask for forgiveness for our sins? (Ephesians 2:8-9)?

Hopefully that was clear enough.

I think your question was clear. "Salvation" means different things to us (I'm a Mormon) in different contexts. You need to understand that up front. In fact, becoming acquainted with what "savlation" means to us will greatly aid you in understanding our doctrine. This page is good reading to that end (be sure to click "View More" and read the whole page).

Put simply, though, our belief is that there is no salvation whatever outside the atonement of Christ, and that by exercising faith in Him in all things we lay claim on salvation in its fulness. This is the beginning of the answer to your question.

Hope that helps.

 

[Moodshadow]

I've been searching the interwebs for this question, but most of the articles deal with topics about using the KJV and other books instead of this question.

Here's my question:

Do Mormons believe that in order to be saved, the only way is to believe that Jesus died for our sins and ask for forgiveness for our sins? (Ephesians 2:8-9)?

Hopefully that was clear enough.

As you can see, the LDS answers - very plural - are not nearly so plain and simple as your honest question. In the linked article, the word "depends," as you no doubt noticed, and the phrases, "various meanings" and "other contexts" are there, and while they may be honest from the standpoint of truth-in-advertising, they only serve to add to the confusion from your end. Mormon doctrine adds many layers to the teachings of Jesus and redefines even the very nature of God and Jesus Christ, and their roles. The truth is that there IS no simple Mormon answer to your question; but if you ask an active member, he or she will be more than happy to get a missionary to try to help you understand it, though the missionary version doesn't begin to cover it, either. You see, there are three Mormon heavens, and three degrees within each of those heavens, and different degrees of worthiness in a person's mortal life will qualify that person for one of those degrees within one of those kingdoms. (Got that, now?) "Saved" in mainstream Christianity is sort of equivalent to "exalted" in Mormonese, and those who will be exalted are those who will qualify, by virtue of their worthiness and having kept all of the Mormon commandments, including having participated in all of the Mormon temple ordinances, where the person learns the particulars of exactly how to gain entrance into that kingdom. It is only in that highest degree of the highest kingdom where God dwells and where "exalted" souls will also dwell for eternity (although they will also qualify to go and create their own planets/kingdoms/worlds, but that's a whole 'nother story).

See what I mean about being complicated and multi-layered? It takes quite a while to learn all of this stuff, so a truly simple answer really isn't possible in Mormonism. One of their complaints about mainstream Christianity is that it removed the "plain and precious" truths from the gospel, but I think they have it kinda backwards. In the New Testament the gospel Jesus taught really was plain and precious. It's good enough for me - how about you?

 

[TasteForTruth]

As you can see, the LDS answers - very plural - are not nearly so plain and simple as your honest question.

And yet my answer was just as honest as his question. Is the answer to a question suspect because it cannot be given in one sentence?

In the linked article, the word "depends," as you no doubt noticed, and the phrases, "various meanings" and "other contexts" are there, and while they may be honest from the standpoint of truth-in-advertising, they only serve to add to the confusion from your end.

Which is why I said that what I had posted was the "beginning" of the answer he seeks.

Mormon doctrine adds many layers to the teachings of Jesus and redefines even the very nature of God and Jesus Christ, and their roles. The truth is that there IS no simple Mormon answer to your question;

That is a matter of opinion. When you step back and look at it, I believe the Gospel is simple, but it still takes effort to learn and understand.

if you ask an active member, he or she will be more than happy to get a missionary to try to help you understand it, though the missionary version doesn't begin to cover it, either. You see, there are three Mormon heavens, and three degrees within each of those heavens, and different degrees of worthiness in a person's mortal life will qualify that person for one of those degrees within one of those kingdoms. (Got that, now?) "Saved" in mainstream Christianity is sort of equivalent to "exalted" in Mormonese, and those who will be exalted are those who will qualify, by virtue of their worthiness and having kept all of the Mormon commandments, including having participated in all of the Mormon temple ordinances, where the person learns the particulars of exactly how to gain entrance into that kingdom. It is only in that highest degree of the highest kingdom where God dwells and where "exalted" souls will also dwell for eternity (although they will also qualify to go and create their own planets/kingdoms/worlds, but that's a whole 'nother story).

See what I mean about being complicated and multi-layered? It takes quite a while to learn all of this stuff, so a truly simple answer really isn't possible in Mormonism. One of their complaints about mainstream Christianity is that it removed the "plain and precious" truths from the gospel, but I think they have it kinda backwards. In the New Testament the gospel Jesus taught really was plain and precious. It's good enough for me - how about you?

Why not just let him learn and judge for himself? Why cast prejudice on his question?

 

[IchoozJC]

Not to mention the fact that even though LDS have pages of articles about salvation and the celestial kingdom, if you ask them who qualifies to live with God for eternity they will not be able to answer that question directly. They claim that its not for them to judge, even though their doctrines already have judged all.

Even though their doctrine teaches only Mormons can live with God, I guess they don't like to say it to non-mormons.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Not to mention the fact that even though LDS have pages of articles about salvation and the celestial kingdom, if you ask them who qualifies to live with God for eternity they will not be able to answer that question directly. They claim that its not for them to judge, even though their doctrines already have judged all.

Even though their doctrine teaches only Mormons can live with God, I guess they don't like to say it to non-mormons.

No, what we say to "non-Mormons" is, "Here is our doctrine. Learn it and judge it for yourself. Measure yourself against it and work out your own salvation with God."

 

[IchoozJC]

No, what we say to "non-Mormons" is, "Here is our doctrine. Learn it and judge it for yourself. Measure yourself against it and work out your own salvation with God."

You leave it to them to work out their own salvation with God? What are some ways that a member can be excommunicated again?

 

[TasteForTruth]

You leave it to them to work out their own salvation with God?

Yes.

What are some ways that a member can be excommunicated again?

Start a new thread if you want to talk about excommunication.

 

[IchoozJC]

Yes.
Start a new thread if you want to talk about excommunication.

My point is that to me it sounds like a contradiction. If salvation was truly between God and an individual, what need would there be for a church court? Once a person is out, they are out of celestial kingdom. So membership into the man led cojcolds is absolutely necessary in order to get into celestial kingdom. It sounds like the blood of Christ is only a ticket, but you still gotta make sure your on the right train. Which again would make it a works based faith.

 

[Moodshadow]

Zijincheng, I am sorry that you're having to read all of this because you asked a simple question. It is a shame that there is not a simple answer.

 

[Ironhold]

Zijincheng, I am sorry that you're having to read all of this because you asked a simple question. It is a shame that there is not a simple answer.

In my personal experience, "simple" answers are more likely to be wrong than detailed explanations.

This is because the process of making answers "simple" has a bad habit of either stripping away or oversimplifying critical details.

 

[TasteForTruth]

In my personal experience, "simple" answers are more likely to be wrong than detailed explanations.

This is because the process of making answers "simple" has a bad habit of either stripping away or oversimplifying critical details.

Precisely.

 

[Moodshadow]

In my personal experience, "simple" answers are more likely to be wrong than detailed explanations.

This is because the process of making answers "simple" has a bad habit of either stripping away or oversimplifying critical details.

Those "plain and precious," parts of the gospel then, just didn't work for you? They needed all those extra layers of complications in order to be valid, or more intellectually satisfying, or just exactly what?

 

[TasteForTruth]

Those "plain and precious," parts of the gospel then, just didn't work for you? They needed all those extra layers of complications in order to be valid, or more intellectually satisfying, or just exactly what?

My kids understand the Restored Gospel. It isn't complicated. Critics make it appear complicated. Same with orthodox Christianity. It isn't complicated either, but critics can make it appear to be.

 

[drstevej]

My kids understand the Restored Gospel.

Do they understand Paul's gospel?

 

[TasteForTruth]

Do they understand Paul's gospel?

The Restored Gospel is inclusive of what Paul taught.

 

[Moodshadow]

Oh, I understood it, too, when I was a member - and taught it, as well. But that was before I woke up and realized that what I thought I was understanding and teaching as truth was Joseph Smith's convoluted, abstruse version of it - added to by his successors along the way to make it what it is today - namely a writhing spaghetti-bowl of that which is anything BUT the simple, beautiful plain and precious gospel that Jesus Christ taught.

Who in his right mind would choose this...

Be baptized and have hands laid on your head to receive the Holy Ghost for confirmation and as confirmation that you are joining the true church. Receive the priesthood (if male) so that you can perform ordinances. Advance in the priesthood from deacon to teacher to priest to elder to high priest. Be worthy; meaning go to your bishop and promise to him that: you swear allegiance to the LDS general authorities and the LDS gospel; you keep the law of chastity; you refrain from coffee, tea, tobacco, and illegal substances; you pay a full tithe; you wear the official temple garments 24/7/365; and you consider yourself worthy. Receive your temple recommend and go to the temple and perform salvific ordinances for yourself and by proxy for your deceased ancestors and those of other people. Learn there the specific passwords that will help you gain entrance into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (which is the highest of the three kingdoms, each other of which also has three degrees). Serve in the church, accepting callings as issued by church authorities, and maintain your worthiness (as determined by your bishop) and your temple recommend. Continue in this works-based manner for the entire remainder of your life.

over this?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Oh, I understood it, too, when I was a member - and taught it, as well. But that was before I woke up

First you say it's complicated, then you say you understood it. Now you're back to saying it's complicated. I'm sorry, but I disagree with your first and last opinion, and hold to that which I previously said...that it is simple, but critics of the church make it appear complicated.

 

[drstevej]

The Restored Gospel is inclusive of what Paul taught.

Not true and that is why Smith had to edit Romans 8:30 and change the theology to suit his views.

 

[Moodshadow]

[/COLOR][/B]First you say it's complicated, then you say you understood it. Now you're back to saying it's complicated. I'm sorry, but I disagree with your first and last opinion, and hold to that which I previously said...that it is simple, but critics of the church make it appear complicated.

Yes, I said that, and I still say it. When I understood it and taught it, I believed exactly the way you do, and therein lies your explanation.