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Question for Mormons about centrality of Jesus' death
- Thread starter zijincheng
- Start date
It sounds like that in other denominations keeping up with the scriptures read is an issue. That's too bad.
Not when you attend a church that loves God's word. For those that do, we can find scriptures in the Bible faster than googling them. And for pastors who preach from God's word, its music to their ears when they hear their congregation flipping pages, not an annoyance.. It's too bad that most LDS will never know that.
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Ran77
Senior Contributor
I based my observation on your comment. In return, you have indicated:
1. The LDS do not love God's word.
2. The LDS have some sort of difficulty finding scriptures in the Bible.
3. The LDS do not enjoy hearing the flipping of pages when the congregation searches the Bible.
In fact, is you seem to be making the quite erroneous insinuation that the LDS do not access the Bible during church.
It is this sort of attitude that reinforces my decision to be LDS. Because if this is a representation of what your faith-system has to offer me, then I don't want it. I am not interested in any denomination that supports misrepresenting the beliefs and actions of others. I'm not interested in any denomination that attempts to tell me what I, and my fellow LDS, believe and think and feel on any given topic--and then can't get it right. It reveals a high level of mistakes that I will associate with the religion itself.
The thing that I really don't understand is why some people do not see how much damage this sort of interaction with the LDS has on their credibility. If the goal is actually to show the LDS the error of their ways - this isn't going to work.
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I based my observation on your comment. In return, you have indicated:
1. The LDS do not love God's word.
2. The LDS have some sort of difficulty finding scriptures in the Bible.
3. The LDS do not enjoy hearing the flipping of pages when the congregation searches the Bible.
In fact, is you seem to be making the quite erroneous insinuation that the LDS do not access the Bible during church.
It is this sort of attitude that reinforces my decision to be LDS. Because if this is a representation of what your faith-system has to offer me, then I don't want it. I am not interested in any denomination that supports misrepresenting the beliefs and actions of others. I'm not interested in any denomination that attempts to tell me what I, and my fellow LDS, believe and think and feel on any given topic--and then can't get it right. It reveals a high level of mistakes that I will associate with the religion itself.
The thing that I really don't understand is why some people do not see how much damage this sort of interaction with the LDS has on their credibility. If the goal is actually to show the LDS the error of their ways - this isn't going to work.
Take a deep breath...
Read again your post that I replied to.
Now read again my post.
Better now?
Let me just say that I have no hope of leading a stalwart LDS man such as yourself out of Mormonism. It's most likely you will never leave your institution. I've accepted that before I ever dialogued with any LDS here.
Like you, I don't want anything to do with any denomination either. And I'm not here representing a denomination. Nor do I represent Jesus on these forums. I am just a man at a keyboard making conversation with other men/women at keyboards. Sometimes I don't do it well. Sometimes you don't do it well (IMO). I would never ask any LDS to leave the church just because its wrong. I would rather they all stay in until they are sure the Savior is in control of their lives. When you are born again I believe Jesus will lead you out.
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Bob -
If you'd quit jumping to conclusions, then perhaps others might actually be able to teach you.
1. The church does, indeed, recognize the D&C and the PoGP as scripture. That the links I showed you were from the official church website should have told you as much.
2. This link here will take you to the "Gospel Principles" chapter talking about the post-mortal spirit world. As you can see, the scriptural citations from from the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine & Covenants.
3. Similar to the above, the Guide to the Scriptures entry for "Degrees of Glory" gives references from the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants. It also provides links to the entries for the three specific kingdoms of Heaven if you wish to see the specific references for those.
4. As far as your bit about "another gospel", if you're simply going to be throwing citations around then I give you the Topical Guide entry for "Restoration of the Gospel". If you wish to read the passages in full, just click on the chapter and verse.
5. If you'll note, items 3 and 4 relied upon two of the official study aids issued by the church. In the 1970s, the church undertook to transform the scriptures into "study" scriptures that include a topical guide, an index, footnotes, a bible dictionary, maps, and other aids. This allows people to quickly reference information on different topics, and provides additional verses for research and consideration. Thus, your average Mormon is fairly likely to reference these aids to find the relevant verses. If you intend to familiarize yourself with the church and its body of scripture, then you need to need to also familiarize yourself with these aids.
If you'd quit jumping to conclusions, then perhaps others might actually be able to teach you.
1. The church does, indeed, recognize the D&C and the PoGP as scripture. That the links I showed you were from the official church website should have told you as much.
2. This link here will take you to the "Gospel Principles" chapter talking about the post-mortal spirit world. As you can see, the scriptural citations from from the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine & Covenants.
3. Similar to the above, the Guide to the Scriptures entry for "Degrees of Glory" gives references from the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants. It also provides links to the entries for the three specific kingdoms of Heaven if you wish to see the specific references for those.
4. As far as your bit about "another gospel", if you're simply going to be throwing citations around then I give you the Topical Guide entry for "Restoration of the Gospel". If you wish to read the passages in full, just click on the chapter and verse.
5. If you'll note, items 3 and 4 relied upon two of the official study aids issued by the church. In the 1970s, the church undertook to transform the scriptures into "study" scriptures that include a topical guide, an index, footnotes, a bible dictionary, maps, and other aids. This allows people to quickly reference information on different topics, and provides additional verses for research and consideration. Thus, your average Mormon is fairly likely to reference these aids to find the relevant verses. If you intend to familiarize yourself with the church and its body of scripture, then you need to need to also familiarize yourself with these aids.
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Ran77
Senior Contributor
That is incorrect. We are nothing alike. I will ask you to not make that comparison anymore. I have not made any claim about not wanting to have anything to do with another denomination. You have falsely represented me. Claiming that you do not represent Christians is a cop-out. Doesn't the Bible indicate that we should not hide our candles under a bushel but place them where everyone can see?
And it really doesn't matter. Our actions have consequences. The consequence in this case is a matter of showing me how much I do not want to be a part of whatever denomination to which you belong.
As far as being born again, I do not go to forums to harass and belittle people who believe differently than myself. And I do not attempt to excuse myself by claiming that I am not an example. I take responsibility for my actions.
You previously posted to me that you would engage in more civilized discussions with me and that has not been the case. If I tell you that I will do something, I do my best to do exactly that. Go figure.
:o
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...if only because it's been replaced by the sound of people whipping out their mobile phones and tablets.
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Moodshadow
Veteran
The Internet has not been a friend to the LDS church, since now people have instant access to real historical facts rather than the 100% biased propaganda published and taught within in the LDS church. Statistics are showing that the Mormon attrition rate is very high and getting higher, but of course members will never hear those numbers announced in general conference.
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"Real" historical facts?
I find it funny that material hostile to the church is considered "real", but even secular material that shows the hostile material to be incorrect is deemed to be "part of the propaganda machine".
Funny how that works.
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Moodshadow
Veteran
Real (without the quotation marks) historical facts, yes. My friend, as has been mentioned before, I am not someone who was willing to trust rabidly anti-LDS sources to be truthful, any more than you are. For real historical facts I turned to LDS authors, 100% active, remember? And a great percentage of their sources were taken straight from church archives, with the full permission of the general authorities. I would certainly agree that they (meaning the aforementioned general authorities) are part of the "propaganda machine" - but are you really calling them secular and hostile, as well?
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Now you're just twisting my words.
As an example -
Some time back, we had a poster who accused Brigham Young of ordering Mountain Meadows. When I responded by noting that all of the evidence put the blame squarely on local officials, the poster responded by telling me that I had fallen for the propaganda machine. When I linked him to a secular book written by a secular author that backed up what I said, he blew it off.
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- Mar 18, 2003
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When they came for Jesus, did He whip out a gun and kill anyone?
Nope. One thing they had in common was they both drank wine the night of their deaths. Yet only one taught against it.
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Critics of the church are forever forgetting about the fact that
1. Joseph wasn't alone that day
2. He didn't return fire until after the mob killed Hyrum.
The original plan called for the four men to hold the door closed and wait for the authorities to send reinforcements. But the mob pushed the door open just wide enough to get some weapons through, at which point they unleashed a volley that killed Hyrum.
When Joseph saw this, it became apparent that the mob was willing to kill everyone in order to get at him. Thus, Joseph did what he did in order to try and protect Willard Richards and John Taylor. As it was, the only reason why the mob left those two men alone is because they believed the men to already be dead (the two were knocked unconscious after the mob stormed the room).
I doubt that Jesus would have issues with self-defense.
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BigDaddy4
It's a new season...
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I am positive you are mistaken.
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 Put your sword back in its place, Jesus said to him, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Matthew 26:50b-52.
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Jesus knew that the soldiers were only after him, and would leave his followers alone if he surrendered peacefully.
The mob made it clear that they were willing to kill anyone they came across if it meant killing JS.
Different situations.
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