Question for Lutherans/Protestants

[bach90]

The Cross without the Corpus is actually the older of the two crosses, used as "graffiti" in ancient times. The Ichthys ("Jesus fish") is probably the earliest of Christian symbolism though.

The Cross and Crucifix come out of the Liturgy, processional crosses and a cross on the altar. Protestants under Calvin an Zwingli were the first to come out against these displays, unfortunately some Lutherans today are doing the same.

I've seen some Crucifixes which display Christ on it as unharmed or even resurrected. I find this to be outside of historical Christian usage. The Crucifix is the symbol of Christ being victorious on the cross, He appears defeated and dead but in fact He conquered sin and death on the cross. Especially when I read Paul's epistles he tends to attribute Justification to the cross and the death of Jesus (Eph 1:7, Col 1:14,20, 1 Cor 1:23). The Letter to the Romans differs a bit mentioning the resurrection in regards to justification, but the resurrection is important because God in his mercy has given to us sinners proof of the triumph of His Son over sin and death.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

We have an empty cross at my home Church. At one point, someone donated a Crucifix. This was carried in before each service, set next to the pulpit during the service except for during the Gospel lesson where it would proceed Pastor to the middle of the sanctuary (ours is an octagon) where Pastor would read the Lesson. Then it would be processed back to the pulpit until the end of the service where it would go out.

This just suddenly started to happen one Sunday and, needless to say, it incited a STORM of controversy. Some people swore if the Crucifix stayed, they'd leave. Others swore if the Crucifix left, so would they. Sadly, the Crucifix silently went away.

That is sad, we have a large Crucifix on our Altar, but our processional Cross is plain.

 

[joyfulthanks]

When our church was founded 100 or so years ago, it had a golden crucifix on the altar. We still have the original crucifix, but it's only brought out very rarely. Apparently, when it is used, some people get upset.

For me, the crucifix helps me focus my attention on Jesus Christ crucified for the forgiveness of our sins. It moves me deeply. I really wish we had one on the altar all the time!

Unfortunately, both our huge wall cross and our processional cross are bare.

 

[MDIVGRAD]

The Cross without the Corpus is actually the older of the two crosses, used as "graffiti" in ancient times. The Ichthys ("Jesus fish") is probably the earliest of Christian symbolism though.

The Cross and Crucifix come out of the Liturgy, processional crosses and a cross on the altar. Protestants under Calvin an Zwingli were the first to come out against these displays, unfortunately some Lutherans today are doing the same.

I've seen some Crucifixes which display Christ on it as unharmed or even resurrected. I find this to be outside of historical Christian usage. The Crucifix is the symbol of Christ being victorious on the cross, He appears defeated and dead but in fact He conquered sin and death on the cross. Especially when I read Paul's epistles he tends to attribute Justification to the cross and the death of Jesus (Eph 1:7, Col 1:14,20, 1 Cor 1:23). The Letter to the Romans differs a bit mentioning the resurrection in regards to justification, but the resurrection is important because God in his mercy has given to us sinners proof of the triumph of His Son over sin and death.

The Reformed are traditionally Iconoclastic. They feel anything other than a bare cross is breaking the first commandment.

 

[Albion]

The Reformed are traditionally Iconoclastic. They feel anything other than a bare cross is breaking the first commandment.

Have the Reformed churches been part of this discussion?

 

[Aibrean]

Indirectly, as the subject is Question for Lutherans/Protestants (i.e. and or). It's also very common knowledge (iconography = idol worship).

 

[MDIVGRAD]

Indirectly, as the subject is Question for Lutherans/Protestants (i.e. and or). It's also very common knowledge (iconography = idol worship).

There is a vast difference between idol worship and having an icon that brings us to mind all that God has done for us through his only begotten Son.

 

[Albion]

Indirectly, as the subject is Question for Lutherans/Protestants

Right you are, Aibrean. I guess I was surprised after the many comments about crucifixes in Lutheran churches.

 

[Aibrean]

There is a vast difference between idol worship and having an icon that brings us to mind all that God has done for us through his only begotten Son.

Yes, but generally you'll find the Reformed churches thinking that icons are idol worship (which is why it's so hard to find a crucifix in them).

 

[MDIVGRAD]

Yes, but generally you'll find the Reformed churches thinking that icons are idol worship (which is why it's so hard to find a crucifix in them).

And I would disagree with them and say they are WRONG. lol

 

[Aibrean]

Well of course ^.^

 

[PreachersWife2004]

In our dedication book for the chapel, here is what it says about the crosses. Of particular interest is the last paragraph in blue.

The Croce Dipinta

Suspended directly over the altar is a cross, 12 feet by 8 feet. It goes by the Italian name, croce dipinta, meaning a "painted cross". ... This is a cross within a cross, a chiseled, tooled cross of cedar, framed by an outline of silver, gold, and copper leaf. The theology behind this symbolism says that our Lord used his cross but once, and after using it, made atonement for sins, and need not die again. Symbolically therefore, the "old rugged cross" is retired and decorated, a monument to what Jesus accomplished for all sinners.

To make this evident, the croce hangs directly over the altar, pointing at the mosaic of the slain lamb and the word "Finished".
...
The croce displays two bodies of Christ, depending on the church year. The one body, or corpus, shows Jesus as the High Priest, offering himself up in death. The other corpus shows him as Christ the King (Christus Rex).
​

 

[Albion]

In our dedication book for the chapel, here is what it says about the crosses. Of particular interest is the last paragraph in blue.

The Croce Dipinta

Suspended directly over the altar is a cross, 12 feet by 8 feet. It goes by the Italian name, croce dipinta, meaning a "painted cross". ... This is a cross within a cross, a chiseled, tooled cross of cedar, framed by an outline of silver, gold, and copper leaf. The theology behind this symbolism says that our Lord used his cross but once, and after using it, made atonement for sins, and need not die again. Symbolically therefore, the "old rugged cross" is retired and decorated, a monument to what Jesus accomplished for all sinners.

To make this evident, the croce hangs directly over the altar, pointing at the mosaic of the slain lamb and the word "Finished".
...
The croce displays two bodies of Christ, depending on the church year. The one body, or corpus, shows Jesus as the High Priest, offering himself up in death. The other corpus shows him as Christ the King (Christus Rex).
​

The only way I can make sense out of this problem is that there is a certain kind of crucifix that is universally called the "Christus Rex" (or Christ the King) cross. It shows Jesus standing in front of the cross (but as if pasted to the cross) dressed in a chasuble, usually a red one, and bearing a crown upon his head. I notice that in the paragraph you've shown to us (in blue), the crucifix in question "shows him as Christ the King (Christus Rex)." It doesn't say "This is a Christ the King crucifix."

I wonder if the church meant only to describe Christ as he appears in your picture (kingly) not that this pose (that some call simply the "Risen Christ" crucifix) IS the literal "Christus Rex crucifix."

 

[DaRev]

A Christus Rex crucifix has Christ wearing a crown. The picture posted earlier in this thread does not have a crown. It's not considered a Christus Rex crucifix.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I've put in a question to our synod guys. If it's not a Christux Rex they probably shouldn't be billing it as one...

 

[ProScribe]

pretty cool discussion about different styles and crucifixes and crosses.'

my mom + grandma go to church here:[URL]http://www.oursavior.us/[/URL] . . .

 

[PreachersWife2004]

this was the explanation given:

I suggest the answer to your question lies in distinguishing between a broader and a narrower category. "Risen Christ" is the broader category. A google image search will show many images that are not "Christus Rex" but any image of Christ after the resurrection, for example with Mary. The narrower category of Christus Rex implies "risen AND REIGNING." I believe the MLC cross fits this definition and is thus a "risen Christ" that is also "Rex," i.e. King, reigning.

I believe this is from Nathan Pope, one of the artists who helped create the chapel. He has a fairly broad spectrum of experience in doing chapel and church artwork.

He also sent some documents about Lutherans and crucifixes that were pretty good reads. Makes me wonder if he's been reading this thread.

 

[VDMA]

Lutheran churches have traditionally used the crucifix, and below are some pictorial examples. If you want to know why many churches use the plain cross, scroll past the list.

Vår Frues Kirke, Trondheim, Norway

Oslo Domkirke, Oslo, Norway

Mariakirken, Bergen, Norway

Hauptkirche Sankt Michaelis, Hamburg, Germany

Nidaros Cathedral, Trondheim, Norway

These are all beautiful Lutheran churches in Germany and Scandinavia. However, in America, Calvinism has influenced Lutheranism to the degree that we have become iconoclastic, or intent upon the destruction of religious images.

To many American Christians, the crucifix is almost satanic: an attempt to keep Christ on the cross, when in fact he is resurrected. Any empty cross, they argue, is more indicative of the fact that Christ rose, which shows he triumphed over death.

The problem with that, is that the empty cross is not a symbol of the risen Christ. An empty tomb is. For where was Jesus when the cross was empty? I'll tell you . . . he was lying in the tomb.

I find it more Satanic to take Christ away from the cross. For what is the cross without Christ, but a hollow depiction of an ancient Roman method of execution? When I kneel every sunday to partake in the Eucharist, it comforts me to be able to look up at a crucifix, not as an object to be worshipped, but rather as a stark reminder. For when I consume the flesh and blood of the Savior, kneeling in front of his presence, and at his table, and look up to see him there, broken and bloodied on the cross with my sins laid upon his shoulders, I nearly break down in tears, and I'm male.

We are not saved by the Resurrection, but by the crucifixion. And the reason why I wear a crucifix around my neck, and hang one within my room is because it is a reminder that all of the problems and sufferings that I have as an individual are nothing compared to what we inflicted upon the Lord, Agnus Dei.

The crucifix reminds me that Jesus knows what pain and suffering feels like, and he endured more than I ever could.

It is to the Cross with Christ upon it that I point to my salvation, just as Lutheran art has shown.

That is why my profile pic is what it is. For it shows John the Baptist pointing Cranach the Elder (the artist), and Martin Luther towards Christ, broken and bloody on the cross. And who is Christ's blood poured upon? Not Luther, but Cranach. The common man. The worthless sinner. The Free and Limitless Grace of God being poured out to man, and the Love of Christ that He would lay down His life for me, and you, and all of us, for our sins to bear.

I'm getting teary-eyed just writing about this.

For me, the cross may identify me was a Christian, but I view it more of as a fashion-statement, as it doesn't preach the Gospel.

But the crucifix shows how much God loves us. And how much He was willing to suffer to save us.

So the next time your friend calls you a hypocrite and idolater for clinging to the crucifix (but not worshipping it, for that is idolatry), tell him why, and tell him what joy and peace it brings.

Half of my family gets it (the German-Norwegian Lutheran side), but the other half (the Dutch Reformed-Congregationalist side) doesn't.

And it's quite a shame.

Well, until the resurrection, I'll proudly display my crucifix and wear it, for it reminds me of the ultimate sacrifice.

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." - Galatians 6:14 ESV

"But we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" - 1 Corinthians 1:23 ESV

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" - Romans 1:16 ESV

 

[Athanasias]

One thing I love about Lutheran Christians (and Anglicans too) is that they do use crucifixes and understand the beauty and power of that image. They also do not have problems using images of Mary or Joseph or the Apostles either as some of their Churches reveal. This to me is awesome! That and the fact that Lutherans stand with us Catholic on our listing of the ten commandments and do not try to falsely accuse anyone of worshipping statues or saints like the fundamentalist do. Really there is alot I appreciate about my good Lutheran brothers and sisters and their appreciation for images, sacred music, and solid Liturgies. Amen my brothers!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

One thing I love about Lutheran Christians (and Anglicans too) is that they do use crucifixes and understand the beauty and power of that image. They also do not have problems using images of Mary or Joseph or the Apostles either as some of their Churches reveal. This to me is awesome! That and the fact that Lutherans stand with us Catholic on our listing of the ten commandments and do not try to falsely accuse anyone of worshipping statues or saints like the fundamentalist do. Really there is alot I appreciate about my good Lutheran brothers and sisters and their appreciation for images, sacred music, and solid Liturgies. Amen my brothers!

Amen!

And thank you!