Question for Dispensationalists

[Timtofly]

So when Jesus said to the thief that thou art with me in paradise, he was referring to Abraham's bosom.

Jesus knew the difference between Abraham's bosom and Paradise. Paradise is the Garden of Eden banned to all of Adam's sinful flesh and blood. Only the Cross and the Atonement opened Paradise. Humanity could once again physically enter Paradise. Abraham's bosom was the place of the soul only in sheol. Jesus Christ was the physical resurrection and the life. That is why physical bodies came out of the tombs when Jesus declared, "It is finished. "

Many want to put bodies back into the tomb. They have to put Christ back in the grave as well then. Not sure how they can claim Jesus physically was raised and ascended, but those in Abraham's bosom can not. Many think Paradise is in sheol and Satan must be reigning over it. That does not sound like Jesus rescued any from the grave.

 

[Timtofly]

Then you are not reading Acts 2:34 literally.

Peter is making a simple point, Jesus has ascended to heaven, David did not.

Peter quoted an OT verse. Peter was not making a judgment where David was at the moment Peter was speaking.

We can assume another person can go to heaven. But for me to claim you are redeemed is not my call. Only you know that. Peter cannot declare the state of David's soul, any more than you can declare the state of my soul. Peter was not just throwing around assumptions.

 

[Guojing]

Peter was quoting the OT. David did not ascend when he died. Peter was not talking about the resurrection of the OT. He was talking about how these people just killed the Messiah. People read into Peter's speech to the Sanhedrin more than they should. Peter does not contradict the very words of Christ.

So do you also believe that David is in heaven now, despite Acts 2:34 using the word "is", signifying present tense?

When did Christ ever state that David is currently in heaven?

 

[Christian Gedge]

As the dummy in this subforum of very smart brothers and sisters in the Lord, can someone kindly explain to me the difference between dispensationalism and futurism? Is one a subset of the other? What are the key differences in a nutshell without going into a ton of deep theology, so that my feeble mind might comprehend what you tell me?

Dispensationalism is futurism on steroids. If you want a moderate version of futurism, get ‘The Blessed Hope’ by George Ladd.

 

[Timtofly]

So do you also believe that David is in heaven now, despite Acts 2:34 using the word "is", signifying present tense?

When did Christ ever state that David is currently in heaven?

If David is part of the church and redeemed, he is in Paradise. If not, then he is in sheol, waiting for the GWT judgment. Do you know the condition of David's soul?

 

[Guojing]

If David is part of the church and redeemed, he is in Paradise. If not, then he is in sheol, waiting for the GWT judgment. Do you know the condition of David's soul?

The Body of Christ is a separate group from Israel.

We are in the Body of Christ, but we are not in Israel. Likewise, David is in Israel but he is not in the Body of Christ.

As a member of the nation Israel, David is currently in Abraham's bosom like everyone else from Israel.

They are not waiting for the GWT judgement. They are waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ where they will awake to inherit the promised land of Israel that is on the Earth. (Matthew 5:5, Daniel 12:1-2)

 

[Timtofly]

The Body of Christ is a separate group from Israel.

We are in the Body of Christ, but we are not in Israel. Likewise, David is in Israel but he is not in the Body of Christ.

That is dispensationalism that most have changed from in their theology.

The OT church looked forward to the Cross. The NT church looks at a brighter future because of the Cross.

All are in Christ since Abel to present day. The OT redeemed are Christ, the firstfruits.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This verse is not about Christ. It is about those humans in Christ.

"Christ the firstfruits" are those from the OT. "They that are Christ's at his coming" are from the NT.

Then one more group:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God.

This is the millennial reign of Christ. Those on earth between the Second Coming and the GWT.

Dispensations are biblical, Paul uses the word. But to differentiate between Israelites and Gentiles is missing the point of the Atonement on the Cross. Those in the OT had to accept the Atonement the same as we do in 2021. That is what Hebrews 11 is all about.

As a member of the nation Israel, David is currently in Abraham's bosom like everyone else from Israel.

They are not waiting for the GWT judgement. They are waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ where they will awake to inherit the promised land of Israel that is on the Earth. (Matthew 5:5, Daniel 12:1-2)

Read Hebrews 11. Those in Abraham's bosom were looking for a heavenly city, Paradise. They are never coming back to live on earth, until the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven. Paradise is currently inhabited by all the church from Abel to today who shed this corruptible body for a permanent incorruptible body. 2 Corinthians 5.

 

[Guojing]

The OT church looked forward to the Cross.

Please explain what you really meant when you say the above.

 

[Timtofly]

Please explain what you really meant when you say the above.

We know about the Cross historically. They had no frame of reference other than the testimony of Abraham and the Law. Think about never hearing about the Cross. That was their mindset. They had more faith than those post Cross.

 

[Guojing]

We know about the Cross historically. They had no frame of reference other than the testimony of Abraham and the Law. Think about never hearing about the Cross. That was their mindset. They had more faith than those post Cross.

They were looking forward for the promised kingdom on earth. (Acts 1:6)

None of the 12 understood Jesus had to die on the cross. Luke 18:34

But if you believe otherwise, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Timtofly]

They were looking forward for the promised kingdom on earth. (Acts 1:6)

None of the 12 understood Jesus had to die on the cross. Luke 18:34

But if you believe otherwise, we can agree to disagree.

By faith they were looking for a heavenly kingdom. They had no idea it was because of a Cross. Yet their whole economy was based on sacrifices.

 

[Guojing]

By faith they were looking for a heavenly kingdom. They had no idea it was because of a Cross. Yet their whole economy was based on sacrifices.

So when you claim the OT church looked forward to the cross, that cannot be correct.

 

[Timtofly]

So when you claim the OT church looked forward to the cross, that cannot be correct.

Forward as in the opposite of backwards. Not forward as in expecting. The had faith in the unknown. They had faith in a resurrection. They had faith by being obedient to God. God told Abraham about it. But God did not say in the Law in bold letters the Atonement will be by a Cross. They were looking at something they could not see. That is faith. Thomas had to see the wounds, even after the Cross. We look back, but we cannot see it either, physically. We cannot remove the Cross from our consciousness. They never had a Cross in their's.

 

[Guojing]

Forward as in the opposite of backwards. Not forward as in expecting. The had faith in the unknown. They had faith in a resurrection. They had faith by being obedient to God. God told Abraham about it. But God did not say in the Law in bold letters the Atonement will be by a Cross. They were looking at something they could not see. That is faith. Thomas had to see the wounds, even after the Cross. We look back, but we cannot see it either, physically. We cannot remove the Cross from our consciousness. They never had a Cross in their's.

So my point was, they were looking forward to the promised kingdom.