Question for Dispensationalists

[1689er]

If Romans 11:26 means that the entirety of national, ethnic Israel will be saved in the future, what do you make of Zechariah 13:8-9? (and similar passages like Joel 2:32, Obadiah 17, 2 Kings 19:31, Is. 37:32, etc. that only promise salvation to a remnant of Israel)

 

[TribulationSigns]

If Romans 11:26 means that the entirety of national, ethnic Israel will be saved in the future, what do you make of Zechariah 13:8-9? (and similar passages like Joel 2:32, Obadiah 17, 2 Kings 19:31, Is. 37:32, etc. that only promise salvation to a remnant of Israel)

Nope. Here is an honest study of Romans Chapter 11 for serious bible students:

An Exposition of Romans Chapter 11.

 

[1689er]

Nope

Nope, what? How does this answer my question of how dispensationalists who believe that Romans 11:26 means there will be a future mass-conversion of Jews interpret Zechariah 13:8-9?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think it all centres on the 70 weeks of Daniel, apparently the Crucifixion put a pause in the weeks and they continue again sometime in the future thus returning the covenant to Israel. Or so it has been explained to me in the past.

There sure are a lot of theologies out there, aren't there?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nope, what? How does this answer my question of how dispensationalists who believe that Romans 11:26 means there will be a future mass-conversion of Jews interpret Zechariah 13:8-9?

Guess you did not bother to read the article link provided. It covers everything.

 

[Guojing]

If Romans 11:26 means that the entirety of national, ethnic Israel will be saved in the future, what do you make of Zechariah 13:8-9? (and similar passages like Joel 2:32, Obadiah 17, 2 Kings 19:31, Is. 37:32, etc. that only promise salvation to a remnant of Israel)

What Romans 11:26 meant is that all those who belong to national Israel, during the time of Jacob's trouble, will no longer be blinded.

They will be able to witness the signs and wonders once again and they will have the opportunity to believe that Jesus is indeed their promised Messiah.

It turns out that the entire nation, led by their leaders will come to that belief, and when that happened, Israel the nation shall be saved.

So that salvation is still because of faith, that is how you reconcile with all those OT scripture.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Timtofly]

Was Paul being dispensational in this verse:

"But each in his own order: the Messiah is the firstfruits; then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming; then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father."

 

[Guojing]

Was Paul being dispensational in this verse:

"But each in his own order: the Messiah is the firstfruits; then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming; then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father."

Well Christ is definitely the firstfruit, he is the only one with the redeemed body now.

All the rest, from Israel to us in the Body of Christ, will get ours in his 2nd coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Well Christ is definitely the firstfruit, he is the only one with the redeemed body now.

All the rest, from Israel to us in the Body of Christ, will get ours in his 2nd coming.

It is plural. All the church are in Christ, just as He is. Do they not see Jesus face to face in Paradise, since that day on the Cross? That is what Jesus promised the thief who repented. The promise was for that day. Jesus said today. Jesus did not say 2000 years from now.

 

[Guojing]

It is plural. All the church are in Christ, just as He is. Do they not see Jesus face to face in Paradise, since that day on the Cross? That is what Jesus promised the thief who repented. The promise was for that day. Jesus said today. Jesus did not say 2000 years from now.

Jesus was in Paradise during the 3 days from the cross to the resurrection, so yes, the thief saw him there, together with Abraham and the rest of Israel.

Some of them had a temporal resurrection when Jesus died on the cross (Matthew 27:52-53), but they did not have the redeemed body and they return to Abraham's bosom/Paradise again. (Acts 2:34)

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus was in Paradise during the 3 days from the cross to the resurrection, so yes, the thief saw him there, together with Abraham and the rest of Israel.

Some of them had a temporal resurrection when Jesus died on the cross (Matthew 27:52-53), but they did not have the redeemed body and they return to Abraham's bosom/Paradise again. (Acts 2:34)

Paradise never was nor is Abraham's bosom. No one could enter Paradise until the Cross and the Atonement. Abraham's bosom no longer exists.

 

[Guojing]

Paradise was nor is Abraham's bosom. No one could enter Paradise until the Cross and the Atonement. Abraham's bosom no longer exists.

Acts 2:34 tells us David did not ascend to heaven even after the cross.

Now if David has still not ascended to Heaven, do you think others who were in Abraham's bosom did?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Could you explain Acts 2:34?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think it all centres on the 70 weeks of Daniel, apparently the Crucifixion put a pause in the weeks and they continue again sometime in the future thus returning the covenant to Israel. Or so it has been explained to me in the past.

There sure are a lot of theologies out there, aren't there?

Says who? Where does it direct a delay?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Acts 2:34 tells us David did not ascend to heaven even after the cross.

Now if David has still not ascended to Heaven, do you think others who were in Abraham's bosom did?

This is talking about David in his day. He did not defeat the grave or Hades. That only occurred through the sinless life, atoning death and victorious resurrection of Jesus.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Jesus was in Paradise during the 3 days from the cross to the resurrection, so yes, the thief saw him there, together with Abraham and the rest of Israel.

Some of them had a temporal resurrection when Jesus died on the cross (Matthew 27:52-53), but they did not have the redeemed body and they return to Abraham's bosom/Paradise again. (Acts 2:34)

Can you furnish us with one Scripture that says Abraham's bosom is Paradise?

 

[DavidPT]

Paradise never was nor is Abraham's bosom. No one could enter Paradise until the Cross and the Atonement. Abraham's bosom no longer exists.

Abraham's bosom no longer exists implies it used to exist. In order for there to even be an Abraham's bosom to begin with, there first has to be an Abraham. Up unto the time of the flood, for instance, many ppl died, yet there was no Abraham at the time. Where did they all go when they died, such as Adam, Abel, Seth, so on and so on, so meaning saints, since none of them could have went to Abraham's bosom? And what happened to that place once Abraham existed, thus there can now be an Abraham's bosom some thousands of years later?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Says who? Where does it direct a delay?

I agree, but that was how it was explained to me previously. Apparently this halting of the Jewish prophetic timeline for the "time of the" Gentiles is instrumental in this theology.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I agree, but that was how it was explained to me previously. Apparently this halting of the Jewish prophetic timeline for the "time of the" Gentiles is instrumental in this theology.

I was taught the same but questioned it because it has to be taught. It will never be gleaned through expressed scriptural command.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I was taught the same but questioned it because it has to be taught. It will never be gleaned through expressed scriptural command.

I always thought it strange that the person speaking of it would insist on reading Hebrew poetry convention into Daniel (for times time and a half) but would read the first bit of Genesis missing the point of the fourth day in terms of keeping time.

Such contradictions of doctrine tend to be dead giveaways.