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Question for 'Christians'

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tpony298

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Try...
John 17:21-23 - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

If you use the same line of reasoning, then you must extend this to mean that we also are God! Of course, this is not so. As this clarifies, this 'oneness' is in purpose - not in substance.

This can be further exemplified by Mark 10:8 - And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

This is speaking of marriage, of course. But we would all agree that a husband and wife are not 'one person'.

Really, though, I didn't intend to bandy scriptures back and forth - just wanted to know why Jesus NEEDS/HAS TO BE God?
there are other examples of "Two being one" like the caterpiller and the butterfly...

When we are Born again we become a new creature...a spiritual creatuire...a part of the family of God with the Father at the head.

I think God came to earth in the form of a man in the person of jesus Christ...and lived in that man as both God and physical man until the death of the physical man..on the cross...after which He returned to heaven, leaving behind His spirit to live in us while we are in the physical form...until the day the body dies and the spirit returns to God in heaven.

There is one God who manifested himself as Father and Son and Holy spirit in each stage of his metamorphesis.
 
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LovesToRead

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I'm sure that you could give me several scriptures that you feel 'prove' this, just as I could also provide several scriptures that I feel 'disprove' it.;) Unfortunately, I think that it would get us nowhere fast.

I am not asking for 'proof' that Jesus is God - just why does Christiandom insist that he MUST BE God?



:eek: MYSTERY of the trinity? Yep - it sure is!!!! ;)
The funny thing is that there are NO MYSTERIES in the scriptures that were not fully explained and given to us to understand! (Do a Bible study on the NT 'mysteries'. Very interesting!) When people start saying 'it's a mystery - we can't really understand it' - that's a cop-out!

I don't think God is totally understandable. So, with all due respect, I disagree that it's a cop-out.

God is so different than me...I do find aspects of Him a mystery. I am not so many things that He is, so that's why I say that.

I'm not using it as the correct "Christian" thing to say. I struggle with it myself, talk about it often in my day-to-day life. I try to get my head "around" God. And I find that I can't...totally. So, to me, that makes Him a mystery.

Believe me, I don't want Him to be.
 
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LovesToRead

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When I posted the question, I thought it would be an easy one to answer, but for some reason, my question seems to be a tough one!

Let me rephrase it:

If Jesus is NOT God then _____________________.
(You fill in the blank.)

Christianity collapses.

No, it's not easy, yes it's a tough one. My understanding, which is very, very rudimentary, is that this is a very old question, one that led to heresy along the way.

We believe it so much, we say it...

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

BTW, do you believe the Holy Spirit is God? And do you believe He is a "He" and not an "it"? (I'm currently in a Bible study about the Holy Spirit, which is why that came to mind and no, I'm not A/G)

I love these conversations, I can't tell you how much.
 
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exegeses

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with all due respect, I disagree that it's a cop-out.

Sorry - that was a little harsher than I should have been. It's just that it seems that we are 'expected' to believe so many things that have been tainted with tradition without actually checking them out with scripture - and then when we ask questions that don't have solid answers from the Bible, the answer just seems to be "It's a mystery - we're not supposed to understand everything."

You are right - God is above us - his ways are not our ways!

Christianity collapses.

Why? :eek: The Christianity of today, maybe - but not the Christianity of the apostles!


We believe it so much, we say it...
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Believing it's so and saying it's so doesn't necessarily make it so. They say that "If you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth." Does it really?

do you believe the Holy Spirit is God? And do you believe He is a He and not an "it"?

Yes :) , of course. John 4:24 - God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth! We use male gender personal pronouns when speaking of God - because that is how he has 'revealed' himself to us. And fathers are male, right? ^_^

Those who believe the trinity have another problem - they include the Holy Spirit as a 'person', yet seem to forget the other six spirits of God! Rev. 4:5 - and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And what about Wisdom?

James 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Luke 11:49 - Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles . . .

Here the Wisdom of God is spoken of in much the same way as the Spirit of God is spoken of. It's given to men, it speaks, and in Proverbs it's spoken of with feminine gender pronouns!

Should she be part of the trinity? If you give God's Spirit it's own 'personage', you have to be consistant and do the same for Wisdom.

It's late - gotta go. Will return another day!
 
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InnocentOdion

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I might get a few shouts for this, but I don't think He does, I see the relationship with God and Christ as the most important things- but being perfect, forgiving sins, ressurecting the dead, controlling the weather, these are all Godly powers. No human could be given them.

I like to think of Jesus = God like this: The one who Moses and Abraham spoke with in the Old Testament was Jesus- but before He had been begotten.

That's why they could talk face to face, and then Christ had to vanish so that his face would not be remembered by the prophets, that is why later we cannot see His face. Just my personal take, I'm not saying you should trust me on it, just a 'what if' theory I have. ;)
 
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Calminian

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Ex. 3:14 And God saith unto Moses, ‘I AM THAT WHICH I AM;’

This is one of several verses in the Bible that can be translated into English in different ways. The common translation (above) is very convienent for our language - especially when Jesus then uses the *very* common words "I am" - words that seem to magically take on special meaning only when said by Jesus. :) The most 'honest' translation of Ex. 3:14 I've seen is "I will be what I will be". Why don't we see this more? Because then Jesus' words "I am" loose their significance.

Oh boy! I see I'm going to have to untangle a bit of a knot (which will take some time).

The reason we don't see it more is because that translation wouldn't make any sense in its context. It has nothing to do with theological convenience as I'll show shortly. You are echoing watchtower arguments, but are as unaware of the Hebrew language as they are. Hebrew verbs are interesting in that their tenses are often implied through context rather than grammar. IOW, hebrew tenses are often understood through exegesis. Ironic, I know. ;) Hebrew is not as precise a language as greek, but this passage is very easy to translate. All you need to do is look at the context. Your rendering would not coherently answer the question the Israelites were going to ask Moses: “What IS the name for this God?” Do you really think “I will be” answers this?

I'm not sure of your sources, but it really doesn't matter. You might find it interesting that the Septuagint Jews who lived much closer to the time this passage was written (about 200 years before Christ) did not translate this as a future tense. They understood the hebrew language better than any source you could possible cite and they used the same exact tense John used. It is also important to note that their translation of the O.T. was the one that was used by Jesus, John and the Jews who were listening. The connection here is undeniable and theological bias could hardly be charged to these pre-christian Jews.

That doesn't really answer my question, though. I really don't want to get into a debate on the differences why we can read the same verses and draw different conclusions.

Believe me I can understand your desire to divert from this passage, as this one explicitly addresses my answer. For that reason I'll have to keep you here at least until you understand its significance.

This statement by Jesus is very revealing, even in and of itself without the Exodus 3:14 context. He uses two different verbs to contrast two different kinds of existence—His and Abraham's. To describe Abraham's he uses the verb genesthai which carries the idea of beginning or coming into existence. He was conveying the fact that Abraham came into existence at a particular point in time—that he actually had a beginning. But then of Himself He used the verb eimi the present tense form of to be (I AM). This merely conveys the idea of existence or being. Had Jesus merely wanted to convey that He was brought into existence sometime before Abraham (as you and JW's believe), He would have used the same verb. “Before Abraham came into existence, I came into existence.” But instead He used a contrasting verb expressing His particular type of existence. “Before Abraham came into existence, I am!”

In light of this, it’s very clear why the Jews were picking up stones. It was obvious to them Jesus was committing the blasphemy of claiming to be the eternal uncreated being, which could only be God. He was claiming to be the I AM of the Septuagint Old Testament.

So why does Jesus HAVE to be God?

Again my answer: Because scripture says He was, and also says that you must believe it in order to be saved.

John 8:24 I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.’ (note: the “he” is not in the original greek)

You see, God is not only the author of mankind, but He is also the author of our redemption. To attribute our redemption to a created being attributes the authorship of our redemption to a creature. But this would go against the testimony of scripture.

Is. 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Jesus made it clear this was not the case and conveyed the consequences of failing to acknowledge Him for who He is.

I really hope you take this to heart.
 
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