Question for Christians

fluffy_rainbow · Dec 30, 2004

Not one study exists to show that sexual orientation is a matter of:
Choice

The relationship one has with ones parents

The behavior or parenting skills of either gendered parent

How you were raised

The family structure one was raised in

The result of childhood sexual trauma

Nothing

What does exist is a large and growing body of scientific evidence that shows that sexual orientation is an inborn and immutable trait.

Sources please?

Electric Sceptic · Dec 30, 2004

fluffy_rainbow said:
You can choose to be anything. Even if someone was appalled by the idea of homosexual sex, they could still choose to engage in it if the circumstances were right. That would be like me saying I am literally turned off by men with blonde hair, but if I conditioned my mind and the circumstances played out correctly, I could choose to have sex with a guy with blonde hair.

As has been stated above several times, actions are a result of choice; attractions are not. I, a heterosexual male, could choose to have sexual contact with another man. However, I could not choose to suddenly find males sexually attractive, rather than females.

Sexual activity is a choice; sexual attraction is not.

fluffy_rainbow · Dec 30, 2004

Sexual activity is a choice; sexual attraction is not.

So people are born to be attracted to skinny women or tall men? The burden of proof is on you. I would like to see these overwhelmingly accurate medical and scientific studies that prove sexual attraction is genetic rather than a product of our influences. For example, what about people who are attracted to people from another race? My former employer's daughter claimed she was only attracted to African-American men. Was she born that way? Or could it be due to these two contributing factors:

1. She attended a predominantly black college and the crowd she fit in best with was the African-Americans?

2. The fact that she was raised in a home taught that dating outside of your race is wrong? Could that be rebellion?

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

SeakerEnder said:
I pretty much agree with your first paragraph, but your second is a biased generalization. Many homosexuals have already changes their orientation, though by far more then a simple act of will, and continue to do so today.

unfortunately these cannot be found.

Dr. Robert Spitzer wished to study individuals who claim to have changed their sexual orientation. He couldnt find any. So he went to the organizations that claim that they facilitate such changes in sexual orientation he asked NARTH and Exodus and several other such organizations for help. Ex-gay groups regularly claim to know of 'thousands' of people who have 'changed' or 'left homosexuality.' But after searching for nearly a year and a half, Spitzer could only find 274 possibilities. Dr. Robert Spitzer finally studied 143 "ex-gays" and 57 "ex-lesbians" who had reported that they had become "straight." Of the 200 individuals who the ex-gay groups claim to no longer be homosexual 172 of the individuals state they still are homosexual. In the end Spitzer was able to find only 11 of the 200 individuals who claim to have changed form being completely homosexual to completely heterosexual. It is important to note that of the eleven who were completely homosexual nine were engaged in heterosexual relationships prior to entering reparative therapy to change their sexual orientation and that all eleven work for the organizations that claim sexual orientation can be changed.

Of the 200 subjects, 86 had been referred to Dr. Spitzer by conservative Christian groups specializing in converting homosexuals. NARTH referred 46 subjects. Some other sources provided 68. It is apparent that the individuals that Dr. Spitzer interviewed were hand-selected from a very large group of persons who had either a homosexual or a bisexual orientation. Those who had been unable to change their sexual behavior would not have become subjects in the study.

There are more than 1,000 professional therapists who belong to NARTH. Assume that the average member has treated 50 clients a year for the past five years. That means that there are over 250,000 clients from which NARTH could select subjects for this study. Assuming that reparative therapy had a "cure" rate of 0.02% then NARTH would have been able to provide the approximately 50 "successful" clients to this study. But a cure rate of 0.02% can be expressed as a failure rate of 99.98%

The most important fact about 'reparative therapy,' also sometimes known as 'conversion' therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a 'cure.'

Worse for the ex-gay claims is the study completed by Drs. Michael Schroeder Ariel Shidlo. These researchers interviewed hundreds of men and women who attempted to change their sexual orientation and found: They published their findings in

Ethical Issues in Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies: An Empirical Study of Consumers published in Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical and Research Perspectives Edited by Ariel Shidlo, PhD

A significant proportion of reparative therapy patients sustain serious, lasting injuries. Having been misled into thinking that being gay is a mental disorder and something that can be changed if they'll only try hard enough, many people feel doubly flawed when a "cure" eludes them. "Frequently they become very, very depressed," a mental state that in many interviewees triggered such self-destructive behavior as unsafe sex, drug abuse or suicide attempts, Shield reports.

Reparative therapy not only encourages self-hatred but often sours family relationships by spreading the myth that homosexuality results from poor parenting. Some patients suffer spiritually when they cannot do what they're told God requires. And a great many temporarily lose their capacity for real human intimacy. Repressing gay desires creates a void, not a true heterosexual.

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

fluffy_rainbow said:
You can choose to be anything. Even if someone was appalled by the idea of homosexual sex, they could still choose to engage in it if the circumstances were right. That would be like me saying I am literally turned off by men with blonde hair, but if I conditioned my mind and the circumstances played out correctly, I could choose to have sex with a guy with blonde hair.

I choose to be honest about who I am. I choose to not hate myself.

fluffy_rainbow · Dec 30, 2004

In the end Spitzer was able to find only 11 of the 200 individuals who claim to have changed form being completely homosexual to completely heterosexual.

It's easy to pinpoint the cause for that. It would be residual sin nature. I was sexually promiscuous before I came to Christ. Even though I have been delivered from that life of dangerous sexual habits, the temptation is still there. It doesn't magically go away.

fluffy_rainbow · Dec 30, 2004

I choose to be honest about who I am. I choose to not hate myself.

You shouldn't hate yourself regardless of what you choose to do or who you feel you are. My point is simply this - homosexuality is a label based upon your sexual practices, not who you are. Your sexual preferences do not define who you are as a person. Just like back in my promiscuous days I used to label myself the dirty "s" word for a loose woman. It was like a joke. At the time I wasn't ashamed, but I still had a name I could append to my sexual preferences and habits. It wasn't who I was, it was what I did. Same thing with homosexuality.

GMRELIC · Dec 30, 2004

one can not choose thier sexuality more than they can choose thier skin color.
How many heterosexuals woke up one morning and decided that well today I am going to be attracted to the opposent sex, It just happens, I think alot of people just like to point at what they consider other peoples sins, It makes them feel superior, I believe that 95 % of all homosexuals are that way due to thier genetic makeup, you cannot make yourself be attracted to the opposent sex if you are just not attrached to them, how many heterosexual people can honestly say they can make themselves be attracted to someone of the same sex. I think the finger pointing and hatres that is expressed to the homosexual community is horrible, It really depresses me to see a group of people singled out and basicly be picked apart and told they are second rate humans, I never recall choosing to be a heterosexual, so how can I even presume that
homosexuals choose to be homosexual. just plain unfair to even suggest they chose thier sexuality when I know very good and well I didn't choose mine

JustJack! · Dec 30, 2004

Another problem with gay advocates is shown here. For some unknown reason, they completely ignore all evidence that the homosexual lifestyle is far more dangerous from a STD standpoint alone.

It's no more dangerous than heterosexuality. Statistics show that hetero women are more at risk of getting AIDS than gay males. And from the STD standpoint, lesbians are the safest of us all.

Not to mention that homosexuals on average are far more prone to depression, suicide,

With the Christian Right demonizing it, of course. When you get disowned by your parents because your gay, that tends to make ppl depressed. When there are websites like "godhates****.com", when being gay is middle America is like being a Jew in Iran, it's shouldn't come as a surprise that they have higher rates of depression and suicide. The "love" of your religion drives ppl to suicide.

drug use, and domestic violence.

Says who.

And don't tell me that that is simply an effect of society. That might make a convincing argument, until you look at statistics from San Francisco, and even better, Sweded to see that the stats are the exact same as in places in which homosexuality is still not accepted today. And Sweden is a place where homosexuality has been accepted from nearly two decades.

Statistics? What statistics am I looking for?

John832 · Dec 30, 2004

Volos said:
Not one study exists to show that sexual orientation is a matter of:
Choice

If you know of study showing that sexual orientation is the result of some psychological, sociological, familial characteristicthen please link the rest of us to it.

Dr. Robert L. Spitzer published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 32, No. 5, October 2003, pp. 403-417.

Quoting the abstract http://www.kluweronline.com/issn/0004-0002/contents

Thus, there is evidence that change in sexual orientation following some form of reparative therapy does occur in some gay men and lesbians.

Clearly there are plenty of studies to suggest there is a biological component (although nothing has been conclusively found). I just offered the study because you asked and there is an opposing viewpoint. If there is no choice component, can some change their orientation?

I tend to believe there could be a biological component (I have met too many Christians that truly struggle with it to believe it is simply "choice") but don't see how this relates to living up to a moral concept (at least for those who choose to put themselves under that set of morals). If I am a professed Christian (presuming my christian ethic holds that drunkness is wrong) who happens to be born with a propensity to alcoholism, does this justify responding to that compulsion?

I noticed you already responded to the Spitzer article and I understand your critique. But you said a study didn't exist, not that you didn't view any study out there as reputable. There is a difference.

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

fluffy_rainbow said:
It's easy to pinpoint the cause for that. It would be residual sin nature. I was sexually promiscuous before I came to Christ. Even though I have been delivered from that life of dangerous sexual habits, the temptation is still there. It doesn't magically go away.

The cause for this is the fact that sexual orientation does not change.

Promiscuity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

fluffy_rainbow · Dec 30, 2004

The cause for this is the fact that sexual orientation does not change.

Funny how the term "sexual orientation" has been conveniently limited to whether you are attracted to members of the same or opposite sex. Wouldn't0 sexual orientation include a specific type of person you find yourself sexually attracted to (as my interracial relationships analogy illustrates)? Can we say that our sexual orientation is not genetic and rather a product of our influences?

Subordinationist · Dec 30, 2004

Antoninus Verus said:
Why do many Christians believe that being gay or lesbian is a CHOICE, and that they can just choose not to be if they wanted to?

If same-sexism is genetic, evolution will sort it out. A group of organisms that cannot reproduce is doomed to extinction, or must suck off of sexually reproducing organisms such as heterosexuals to continue their anti-naturalism.

.

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

fluffy_rainbow said:
Sources please?

It would be easy to site the complete absence of any published studies

However if you wish to read about the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that sexual l orientation is the result of family structure. Ones relationship with ones parents, ones relationship with either gendered parent, childhood sexual trauma or choice then you might wish to start with these studies:

Matt Ridley, "Nature via nurture: Genes, experience, and what makes us human," HarperCollins, (2003). Page 159.

R. Blanchard, "Fraternal birth order and the maternal immune hypothesis of male homosexuality," Hormones & Behavior, 2001, 40, Pages 105 to 114.

R. Blanchard & L. Elllis, "Birth weight, sexual orientation, and the sex of preceding siblings," Journal of Biosocial Science, 2001, 33: Pages 451 to 467.

Anne Moir and David Jessel, "Brainsex", Dell Books (1993)

Dean Hamer & Peter Copeland "The Science of Desire: The Search for the Gay Gene & the Biology of Behavior", Simon & Schuster (1994)

MJ Rotheram-Borus, M Rosario, H Reid, and C Koopman
Predicting patterns of sexual acts among homosexual and bisexual youths
Am. J. Psychiatry, Apr 1995; 152: 588 - 595.

Caleb Crain, "Did a germ make you gay," Out magazine, 1999-AUG, Pages 46 to 49.

Dean Hamer et al, "A Linkage Between DNA Markers on the X Chromosome and Male Sexual Orientation" Science 261 (1993-JUL-16): pp 321-27.

R Blanchard and KJ Zucker
Reanalysis of Bell, Weinberg, and Hammersmith's data on birth order, sibling sex ratio, and parental age in homosexual menAm. J. Psychiatry, Sep 1994; 151: 1375 1376

EM Pattison and ML Pattison
"Ex-Gays": Religiously mediated change in homosexuals
Am. J. Psychiatry, Dec 1980; 137: 1553 - 1562.

Kenneth S. Kendler, Laura M. Thornton, Stephen E. Gilman, and Ronald C. Kessler

Am. J. Psychiatry, Nov 2000; 157: 1843 - 1846.

R Blanchard and AF Bogaert
Homosexuality in men and number of older brothers
Am. J. Psychiatry, Jan 1996; 153: 27 31

R. Berlin
Treatments to Change Sexual Orientation
Am. J. Psychiatry, May 2000; 157: 838.

E. Hooker, (1957). The adjustment of the male overt homosexual. Journal of Projective Techniques, 21, 18-31.

Chandler Burr, "A Separate Creation: The search for the biological origins of sexual orientation", DIANE Publishing, (1996),

Frederick Whitam & Robin Mathy, "Male Homosexuality in Four Societies: Brazil, Guatemala, the Philippines and the United States," Praeger, New York NY (1986)

There are hundreds more if you would like.

I am still waiting for any evidence to support the claims that sexual orientation is a matter of choice or any psychological, sociological of familial factor.

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

fluffy_rainbow said:
You shouldn't hate yourself regardless of what you choose to do or who you feel you are.

However the impetus to even consider changing sexual orientation is based on self hatred. Those engaging in reparative therapy promote this self hatred through dishonesty

My point is simply this - homosexuality is a label based upon your sexual practices, not who you are.

Sexual orientation has nothing to do with any behavior. I was a gay man long before I had sex.

Your sexual preferences do not define who you are as a person.

My self identity is tied up in my marriage, my occupation, my family, my child.

Yet within all of those there remains the fact that I am a gay man and that I am happy with myself as I am.

I cannot escape the fact that I am gay. I am unwilling to lie about it. I am unwilling to accept the messages of hate so often broadcast about me and other homosexuals.

Just like back in my promiscuous days I used to label myself the dirty "s" word for a loose woman. It was like a joke. At the time I wasn't ashamed, but I still had a name I could append to my sexual preferences and habits. It wasn't who I was, it was what I did. Same thing with homosexuality.

Your promiscuity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

JustJack! said:
Statistics? What statistics am I looking for?

You wont find any real statistics to back up these claims because they dont exist.

Most of them come from the poison pen of Paul Cameron and the Family research Council. Cameron was expelled form the APA in 1984 for falsifying research on homosexuality and for misrepresenting the research on others. Since his expulsion he has continued to lie about gays and lesbians and has continued to make up facts to support his personal prejudices.

Some of his more famous lies include:

Homosexuals have a life expectancy of 39 years.

Homosexuals are 6000 times more likely to have a sexually transmitted disease.

Homosexuals perpetrate more than one half of all recorded child molestations

68% of all murders are homosexual.

Homosexual teachers have committed between a quarter and four-fifths of all molestation of pupils

You are 15 times more apt to be killed by a Gay than a heterosexual during a sexual murder spree

And a pile of other lies that many Christian sites are all to willing to reprint.

http://www.qrd.org/qrd/religion/anti/cameron/medical.consequences.rebuttal2.txt

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

John832 said:
Dr. Robert L. Spitzer published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 32, No. 5, October 2003, pp. 403-417.

Quoting the abstract http://www.kluweronline.com/issn/0004-0002/contents

I noticed you already responded to the Spitzer article and I understand your critique. But you said a study didn't exist, not that you didn't view any study out there as reputable. There is a difference.

As already noted the Spitzer study was flawed in the extreme. He was unable to find the thousands of people anti-gay groups claim have changed sexual orientation finding only 11 who claim to have changed form exclusively homosexual to exclusively heterosexual. However of these eleven nine were in full time heterosexual relationships when they entered reparative therapy meaning that they were not exclusively homosexual at all. worse all of the 11 were employed at organizations who continually claim to be able to change sexual orientation.

Worsenothing in the Spitzer study to even suggest that sexual orientation is a choice.

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

fluffy_rainbow said:
Funny how the term "sexual orientation" has been conveniently limited to whether you are attracted to members of the same or opposite sex.

Maybe that is because it is the definition of sexual orientation.

Wouldn't0 sexual orientation include a specific type of person you find yourself sexually attracted to (as my interracial relationships analogy illustrates)? Can we say that our sexual orientation is not genetic and rather a product of our influences?

more to the point it includes the kind of person you are emotionally attracted to.

we could say thath sexual orientaion "sexual orientation is not genetic and rather a product of our influences" but that would be at best an unsupproted statement and at worst it would be a lie.

Volos · Dec 30, 2004

Subordinationist said:
If same-sexism is genetic, evolution will sort it out. A group of organisms that cannot reproduce is doomed to extinction, or must suck off of sexually reproducing organisms such as heterosexuals to continue their anti-naturalism.

.

You of course realize that less than 0.00001% of all termites reproduce. I guess that means that termites, ants, bees and many other creatures are being sorted out evolution wise.

PS. You might want to actually learn about evolution before making claims like this.

John832 · Dec 30, 2004

Volos said:
Worsenothing in the Spitzer study to even suggest that sexual orientation is a choice.

It was implied in the purpose of the study. If a person can choose to change their orientation through reparative therapy than the condition must, at least in part, contain choice.

I wouldn't disagree that it is a poor study for the defense but that wasn't rather my point. You seem to deny any research even exists that you don't deem reputable. I would think you would gladly acknowledge that studies are done and are either not supportive of your position or unethically carried out. You clearly did this in your response which is more supportive of your position than a simple "Not one study exists".

Doesn't make much difference to me since, as I pointed out previously, I do believe there is a biological component (although this does not preclude a social component).

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