Question for Catholics

[aintzaJainkoari]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this?

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity.

Can anyone explain this to me?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Take 98


This had already been explained by St. Thomas:

Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory which God alone gives, according to those words of the Psalm (lxxxiii, 12): 'The Lord will give grace and glory.' But in the second way we pray to the holy angels and to men not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (viii, 4): 'And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel' (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4). ​

The reasonableness of the Catholic teaching and practice cannot be better stated than in St. Jerome's words:

If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion? ("Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P. L., XXIII, 344). ​

 

[StTherese]

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you?

 

[StTherese]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this?

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity.

Can anyone explain this to me?

For scriptural support please read here:


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[Tyndale]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this?

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity.

Can anyone explain this to me?

Take 98



This had already been explained by St. Thomas:

Christ's the only mediator between God and man. If you pray to anyone else, it's not reaching Heaven.

 

[aintzaJainkoari]

I still don't see that it tells us to pray to them.

In most of those verses it was talking about people who were still alive praying to God for each other, or just respecting and honoring the saints/elders/etc., but not to pray to them.
And concerning the angels, most of those say that the angels guard us, but it doesn't say to worship them or pray to them.

 

[PaladinValer]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this?

First, potentially wrong forum.

Secondly, this isn't just a Vatican Catholic thing. The three largest Christian churches in the world teach this, and only one of them is that particular church. The second largest, the Eastern Orthodox, and the third largest, my own Anglican Church, also practice this. In addition, the Oriental Orthodox, Continuing Churchers, and the Old Catholics all historically practice veneration of the Saints, and it is personally practiced by some Lutherans, Moravians, and high-churchy Methodists as well.

Third, it isn't specifically explicitly stated in Scripture. Then again, nor is the Trinity. However, the basis of it comes from two Greek words that are both unfortunately translated as prayer in English: latria and doulia. One of them, latria, means what we mean by prayer. Doulia means what we would call petition today.

When an Apostolic Christian (Anglican, Old Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, etc) says that he or she prays to the Saints, that person means doulia. If that person actually meant latria, that person has automatically excommunicated himself/herself and as fallen into sin and apostacy.

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity.

It didn't significantly until a few decades before the Seventh Ecumenical Council, which occurred in the late 8th century. The ancient practice was to venerate the Saints and to petition them to pray for us and we for them. The concept of this being a sin is roughly 700 years after Pentecost.

Can anyone explain this to me?

Done!

Christ's the only mediator between God and man. If you pray to anyone else, it's not reaching Heaven.

Since you've never been to the other side and we have witnesses who've experienced otherwise, I'll trust them.

 

[Tyndale]

Christ's the only mediator between God and man. If you pray to anyone else, it's not reaching Heaven.

Since you've never been to the other side and we have witnesses who've experienced otherwise, I'll trust them.

Who are these witnesses who have went against Christ's word? Christ mentioned to pray unto him and his Father, no-one else!

 

[Assisi]

As Catholics we see ourselves as one big family including those of us in heaven with God and us Christians on earth. We believe that while God looks into the heart of each individual, he also sees us as one 'unit', one family, one Church - His Bride. We see this in revelation because although there is a multitude before the throne praising the Lord, we are also told of John's vision of the Church adorned in white. Also, in Corinthians we are told of the body with many parts. This is a good analogy because we are indeed all different parts of the Body of Christ, yet when we see a body we see one thing, living and moving together.

There is a mystical bond between us, and that bond is formed by the Spirit. Catholics do not believe that physical death can break this mystical bond. How is it that the Lord can hear my prayer for you? How is it that I can pray for someone who I haven't met, someone, perhaps, who hasn't verbally asked for my prayers? The bond between us all reminds me to pray for all of God's chosen people.

Those who are in heaven have been cleaned and perfected by Christ (for we know that nothing unclean can enter the kingdom of heaven). They are righteous men and women, who will always pray in accordance with the will of God. When we go to heaven we will not stop praising the Lord, we will not stop worshiping Him, we will not stop petitioning Him for the needs of His Church on earth who are still struggling with daily encounters and temptations from the devil to turn away from the Lord. Those in heaven will of course pray for those in need, and their prayer will be effective because 'the prayer of the righteous man availth much'.

Knowing that they will pray for us, and that their prayer will be effective, and knowing that through the Holy Spirit there is an unbreakable bond between us as member of Christ's Church, we can ask the saints in heaven to pray for us and to pray with us. We do not worship them (that would be idolatry) and we do not praise them. We ask them to petition the Lord on our behalf and we pray together as a family.

 

[Melethiel]

Moved to Denomination-specific Theology. Please observe the particular guidelines of this subforum.

 

[Tyndale]

We do not worship them (that would be idolatry) and we do not praise them. We ask them to petition the Lord on our behalf and we pray together as a family.

What do you mean? Do the saints offer your prayers to Christ? Why do you go through a Saint, when Christ said you can pray to him?

Does this petition the Saints make to Christ act in the same way regarding sins?

 

[Assisi]

A great place to ask these types of questions is OBOB.

Personally I like the idea of the communion of saints and I like knowing that the holy men and women in heaven can pray for me and with me. If I am tempted to deny Christ, I can turn to the Lord in prayer and I can ask St Peter to turn with me. If I have a thorn in my flesh I can turn to the Lord in prayer and I can ask St Paul to turn with me. When I lost my child, I turned to the Lord, and I asked the mother of Christ to pray with me.

I also like to know that although my family is separated by death, when I worship the Lord at His altar at my local church, my child is worshiping the Lord at His heavenly altar.
Just to reiterate. We do not worship saints or angels, we pray with them, we ask them to pray for us.

 

[Assisi]

What do you mean? Do the saints offer your prayers to Christ? Why do you go through a Saint, when Christ said you can pray to him?

We of course pray to Christ. The saints also offer my prayers to Christ, they do not offer my prayers for me, instead of me.
I 'go through a saint' because I like to pray with other people. The more the merrier.

The saints do not take my place in offering the prayer, nor do they take Christ's place in receiving the prayer.

Does this petition the Saints make to Christ act in the same way regarding sins?

I'm not sure what you mean here?

 

[Tyndale]

We of course pray to Christ. The saints also offer my prayers to Christ, they do not offer my prayers for me, instead of me.
I 'go through a saint' because I like to pray with other people. The more the merrier.

The saints do not take my place in offering the prayer, nor do they take Christ's place in receiving the prayer.


I'm not sure what you mean here?

Is this in the bible?

 

[Assisi]

Christ's the only mediator between God and man. If you pray to anyone else, it's not reaching Heaven.

I agree with your statement that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. This Scripture is a reference to Christ's redemptive work on the Cross. But Tyndale, Saints are men (or women). Christ is the mediator between them and God as well.

 

[Assisi]

Is this in the bible?

Yep
This was posted by a fellow Catholic on the previous page.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[Tyndale]

Is this in the bible?

Yep
This was posted by a fellow Catholic on the previous page.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

IWhen I see references to books, chapter and verse, along with an interpretation of what they mean, I'm quite suspicious.

The following interpretation is a bit out there, don't you think?

"1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist."

and the one below is very wishy-washy in theory too, don't you think?

"Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth." Surely Jesus and the disciples are specially chosen to talk with Moses and Elijah? If not, then we all could be judging one another come jugment day?

 

[WarriorAngel]

BTW.the earliest graves in the catacombs have writings over their tombs asking Saints to pray for them. [specifically Mary to pray]

And it is not something that came about in the 8th Century. It was then that it was decreed good to do. As opposed to those who decided that it wasnt.

 

[WarriorAngel]

FOR the most part...when the NT was being written.....

How could they tell us to ask Mary for prayers from Heaven, or others....when they were still alive?

 

[aintzaJainkoari]

I believe that the saints and the angels already pray for us, but that communication with the dead is considered divination.