Question for atheists regarding "the problem of evil"

[Moral Orel]

This depends on how you define evil.

If you define evil as differing from Gods opinions, intentions, or plan then there can be no free will if there is no evil.

If that's all it takes to conclude free will doesn't exist, then God doesn't have free will. God's opinions, intentions, and plans don't differ from His own.

 

[variant]

If that's all it takes to conclude free will doesn't exist, then God doesn't have free will. God's opinions, intentions, and plans don't differ from His own.

It doesn't matter to the question whether or not God has free will.

If you define evil the way I showed you, then God requires evil to give humans free will. Free will IS evil.

 

[Moral Orel]

It dosen't matter to the question whether or not God has free will.

Huh?

 

[variant]

Huh?

It's irrelevant whether or not God has free will.

If you use the definition I provided, free will (for humans) requires evil.

Which is all that I argued.

 

[Moral Orel]

It's irrelevant whether or not God has free will.

If you use the definition I provided free will (for humans) requires evil.

Why is it irrelevant? All I said originally was:

But there could be free will and no evil, so they aren't intrinsically linked.

I never mentioned who has the free will and who doesn't. If your definition only tells us whether humans have free will and not other beings, then it seems like special pleading to me. That's why I said, "If that's all it takes" because I think you've got some hidden premises in there.

Whether God has free will or not seems pretty significant to me when discussing the problem of evil. If it's only good to freely choose to do good, then God (if He lacks free will) isn't "good". And if God isn't "good", then how can you define "evil" as that which differs from Him?

 

[variant]

Why is it irrelevant? All I said originally was:

I never mentioned who has the free will and who doesn't. If your definition only tells us whether humans have free will and not other beings, then it seems like special pleading to me. That's why I said, "If that's all it takes" because I think you've got some hidden premises in there.

Whether God has free will or not seems pretty significant to me when discussing the problem of evil. If it's only good to freely choose to do good, then God (if He lacks free will) isn't "good". And if God isn't "good", then how can you define "evil" as that which differs from Him?

God requiring free will in human terms seems pretty insignificant to me.

Given that god makes humans, the universe and sets the conditions in this hypothetical scenario, I don't see any problem with defining free will for humans differently than define it for god either, so I specifically don't see any problems here. Freedom for humans can be defined by their relationship to god's wishes, as I have argued, and evil can be defined similarly.

God can be free on differn't terms than humans, or not free, or whatever. The only thing god can't be for the problem of evil is of course evil. Which is why I don't argue for the problem of evil because I don't see any reason to assert that god can't be evil.

I think your statement that there can be free will and no evil requires support. For that we need a coherent definition of evil that allows people the freedom to do it but have it not exist somehow.

 

[Moral Orel]

God requiring free will in human terms seems pretty insignificant to me.

Given that god makes humans, the universe and sets the conditions in this hypothetical scenario, I don't see any problem with defining free will for humans differently than define it for god either, so I specifically don't see any problems here. Freedom for humans can be defined by their relationship to god's wishes, as I have argued, and evil can be defined similarly.

God can be free on differn't terms than humans, or not free, or whatever. The only thing god can't be for the problem of evil is of course evil. Which is why I don't argue for the problem of evil because I don't see any reason to assert that god can't be evil.

I think your statement that there can be free will and no evil requires support. For that we need a coherent definition of evil that allows people the freedom to do it but have it not exist somehow.

I don't see how the definition of evil applies to free will at all. We can discuss free will about the choice between a blue pen or a black pen in which God probably doesn't care.

Either you choose to do evil, or you don't. If it's possible for me to choose a different opinion from God's opinion, but I don't, then free will exists and evil does not.

And if we take your definition of evil, then God can't be evil.

 

[variant]

I don't see how the definition of evil applies to free will at all. We can discuss free will about the choice between a blue pen or a black pen in which God probably doesn't care.

We could but then we would have to suggest that all such choices could be that way.

If God dosen't care about any of our decisions then that definition of evil is probably simply wrong.

Either you choose to do evil, or you don't. If it's possible for me to choose a different opinion from God's opinion, but I don't, then free will exists and evil does not.

And how are we going to assuredly create such a universe? The way the story goes that's exactly what God did and humanity chose not to do that.

If God determines that humanity will not choose to do other than it's wishes then there isn't free will.

And if we take your definition of evil, then God can't be evil.

It's not my definition but rather my understanding of the definition of evil from the religion you were worrying about.

I can't rule out evil gods because I can't rule any gods out, or tell the difference between god and not god.

I wouldn't define evil as the opposition of gods wishes, I'm an agnostic atheist.

 

[Moral Orel]

We could but then we would have to suggest that all such choices could be that way.

If God dosen't care about any of our decisions then that definition of evil is probably simply wrong.

Of course they could be that way. I'm just showing that evil and free will aren't intrinsically linked. There are some choices I freely make that are not a choice between good or evil. Therefore defining evil has nothing to do with showing the existence of free will or not.

God could create an automaton who's every action is determined for him except when to blink. That gives him a free choice to blink whenever he pleases or to not blink when he doesn't want to. Evil can still be defined as having a differing opinion from God, and this automaton would still have free will to the extent that he chooses when to blink, even if he can't choose to do evil.

No one has complete free will, some things I can't do because of physical limitations. So saying "free will" simply means that some choices are freely made, but not all of them. So if God limited us to be incapable of choosing evil opinions, but let us choose when to blink, we have a universe in which free will exists but evil does not.

Thus my claim, "there could be free will and no evil, so they aren't intrinsically linked".

None of that is really significant to the problem of evil, but it lays the groundwork that defining evil doesn't tell us about the existence of free will. What we want to know is whether someone can freely choose evil, but never happen to do so.

And how are we going to assuredly create such a universe? The way the story goes that's exactly what God did and humanity chose not to do that.

If God determines that humanity will not choose to do other than it's wishes then there isn't free will.

I don't think I really need to explain the "how" because I think most Christians already believe that free will doesn't necessitate evil. Many think God has free will, but He never chooses to do evil. Many think that when they die they'll go to Heaven, continue to never do evil again, but retain their free will. Heck, if there's no logical contradiction, then the simple fact that "nothing is impossible with God" should be enough.

I did run into one funny situation in this discussion before though. First the guy tells me that "No, God does not have free will. How could He if He's unchanging?" Makes sense, right? Then he says, "And when we go to Heaven we lose our free will in the presence of God". So, the ultimate purpose of life is to have free will, but freely choose to defer our will to that of God, who doesn't have free will... What the heck is the point of free will then?!

 

[variant]

Of course they could be that way. I'm just showing that evil and free will aren't intrinsically linked. There are some choices I freely make that are not a choice between good or evil. Therefore defining evil has nothing to do with showing the existence of free will or not.

The idea that there are neutral choices doesn't change anything about problem in the least.

As long as there is a non-zero number of things God cares about given the previous definition of evil then free will is impossible without evil.

God could create an automaton who's every action is determined for him except when to blink. That gives him a free choice to blink whenever he pleases or to not blink when he doesn't want to. Evil can still be defined as having a differing opinion from God, and this automaton would still have free will to the extent that he chooses when to blink, even if he can't choose to do evil.

I think you've successfully reduced your own argument to the absurd.

Without the ability to choose differently than God would wish the creature is by no means truly free. It is determined in every way God considers important.

So, this means I can set someone "free" by giving them at-least one non-consequential freedom. Absurd.

No one has complete free will, some things I can't do because of physical limitations. So saying "free will" simply means that some choices are freely made, but not all of them. So if God limited us to be incapable of choosing evil opinions, but let us choose when to blink, we have a universe in which free will exists but evil does not.

Thus my claim, "there could be free will and no evil, so they aren't intrinsically linked".

None of that is really significant to the problem of evil, but it lays the groundwork that defining evil doesn't tell us about the existence of free will. What we want to know is whether someone can freely choose evil, but never happen to do so.

It only shows that you're willing to accept definitions of "free will" that are essentially meaningless.

I don't think I really need to explain the "how" because I think most Christians already believe that free will doesn't necessitate evil. Many think God has free will, but He never chooses to do evil. Many think that when they die they'll go to Heaven, continue to never do evil again, but retain their free will. Heck, if there's no logical contradiction, then the simple fact that "nothing is impossible with God" should be enough.

Yes but we're talking about actually examining these ideas.

I did run into one funny situation in this discussion before though. First the guy tells me that "No, God does not have free will. How could He if He's unchanging?" Makes sense, right? Then he says, "And when we go to Heaven we lose our free will in the presence of God". So, the ultimate purpose of life is to have free will, but freely choose to defer our will to that of God, who doesn't have free will... What the heck is the point of free will then?!

It's mostly important to explain why God allows evil.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

@Nicholas Deka

How does free will even make sense?

Our free-will choices are based on our primitive desires. I mean, free will or not, would you ever eat a bowl of salt? Would you choose to do that? I'm thinking no. It's because your free-will choices are based on desires, and you had no choice in what those desires would be. And even if you did, if some before-life version of yourself made those choices, you would be doing so without free will and essentially at random because you have no desires of any kind at this point.

 

[Serving Zion]

This depends on how you define evil.

If you define evil as differing from Gods opinions, intentions, or plan then there can be no free will if there is no evil.

It's not the best definition of evil, really. It is certainly possible to have a different will than God and for that to not be evil (for example, choosing to use a blue pen or a black pen might be a simple matter of preference without any unholy result - and picture that in the garden of Eden, such differences are exactly what is required for friendship). So if I were involved in this train of discussion, I would want to establish a proper definition of evil: that is to define what makes a person act in such a way as to then be ashamed of their behaviour in a holy light - henceforth evading the truth and hiding from God (consider Romans 8:1, John 3:18-21, Genesis 3:10).

 

[Chriliman]

It's irrelevant whether or not God has free will.

If you use the definition I provided, free will (for humans) requires evil.

Which is all that I argued.

Not if a persons free will lines up with God’s will.

 

[variant]

Not if a persons free will lines up with God’s will.

I am simply more concerned with when it doesn't.

I think that to consider someone truly free God would have to allow his will to be contradicted on stuff it considers important.

 

[variant]

Nm

 

[Chriliman]

I am simply more concerned with when it doesn't.

I think that to consider someone truly free God would have to allow his will to be contradicted on stuff it considers important.

What you're describing is sin. I think God either allows sin(temporarily) or isn't aware that it happens until it happens, then he corrects it. If the former then it must be because he doesn't want to directly control our actions, hence our ability to freely make our own choices based on our circumstances and limited knowledge. If the latter, then God either isn't all knowing or hasn't always been all knowing.

 

[Moral Orel]

As long as there is a non-zero number of things God cares about given the previous definition of evil then free will is impossible without evil.

Okay, prove this assertion so I know what in the world you're getting at.

 

[Moral Orel]

How does free will even make sense?

Our free-will choices are based on our primitive desires. I mean, free will or not, would you ever eat a bowl of salt? Would you choose to do that? I'm thinking no. It's because your free-will choices are based on desires, and you had no choice in what those desires would be. And even if you did, if some before-life version of yourself made those choices, you would be doing so without free will and essentially at random because you have no desires of any kind at this point.

I'm not 100% convinced that free will exists, but I'm nearly 100% convinced it's impossible to ever know. I'm fine with assuming that free will exists for the sake of the argument though. It's funny you mention desire though. Think of this: We wouldn't have eaten from that darn tree if we didn't have the desire to. We only have the desires God created us with. God gave us the desire to sin. Uh-Oh!

 

[Chriliman]

I'm not 100% convinced that free will exists, but I'm nearly 100% convinced it's impossible to ever know. I'm fine with assuming that free will exists for the sake of the argument though. It's funny you mention desire though. Think of this: We wouldn't have eaten from that darn tree if we didn't have the desire to. We only have the desires God created us with. God gave us the desire to sin. Uh-Oh!

Or God gave us our own will and desires which includes, but isn't limited to, the desire to sin.