Question for atheists regarding "the problem of evil"

[HitchSlap]

I think Hitchens may have quote him, but the original is Steven Weinberg

ETA source: Steven Weinberg - Wikiquote

IICR, I was paraphrasing Sam Harris (who may have been paraphrasing Weinberg?).

 

[bhsmte]

I think Hitchens may have quote him, but the original is Steven Weinberg

ETA source: Steven Weinberg - Wikiquote

I understand the crux of this statement.

With that said, I would argue, for a person to be influenced so much by religion or anything else, to harm others, likely is not a good person to begin with.

I am a firm believer in; religion is the symptom and the smoke screen people use to justify certain behaviors. If they didn't have religion to hang their hat on, they would find other means of justification.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I understand the crux of this statement.

With that said, I would argue, for a person to be influenced so much by religion or anything else, to harm others, likely is not a good person to begin with.

I am a firm believer in; religion is the symptom and the smoke screen people use to justify certain behaviors. If they didn't have religion to hang their hat on, they would find other means of justification.

That is partly true. I would say, authoritarian/dogmatic thinking is problematic no matter how it manifests, and it's not always through religion. Political philosophy, anyone?

It is not true, however, that people will necessarily resort to those other outlets, absent religion. If it were, we would see things like largely secular and atheistic countries - Sweden, Denmark, France, New Zealand, etc - having, for example, women's rights suppression at equal or at least comparable rates to those of highly religious countries. Which we don't. Not even close.

There is one other huge difference - political or other philosophical beliefs are not shielded by an unearned and automatic air of 'respect'. Whereas - for no good reason anyone has ever been able to articulate to me - religious beliefs are.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Let me get right to the point. Most of the terrible evil in this life is caused by the actions of godless hedonists.

I don't agree. There are many reasons people do terrible things, and hedonism is only one of many possible explanations. Evil has even been done in the name of serving God.

Even if you can point to a few horrible cases of priests molesting children for years, they were not behaving Christlike.

Perhaps they weren't. Atheists can have high moral standards as well. There is nothing about being an atheist that means that one is automatically a "hedonist". (I'll assume here that you aren't talking about a philosophical hedonist, such as an Epicurean.) So, a non-hedonistic atheist might not be living up to her own high ethical ideals.

So let me be as blunt as possible

Yes, please. It's better than dancing around an issue.

If you were walking back to your car from Taco Bell at 2am with a bag of food and 5 bucks in your wallet, and someone walks up and stabs you for your food and $5, was it more likely a born-again Christian that just murdered you, or one of your godless hedonistic brethren? Be honest now.

Honestly... I don't know. It could be either. I make no assumptions whatsoever about that.

Even if it were true that hedonists cause more evil in the world, I'm not a hedonist. Those aren't my "brethren".

Let me show you something that Jefferey Dahmer said, and you tell me how his idea of morality is any different than yours.. tell me what words of his you would change (if any)

"If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what's the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing ..."
(source: Wikipedia)

I have a dramatically different viewpoint on ethics. The whole paragraph needs to be scrapped.

"I seek to make the most of my life, the only life I have, which means living rationally, upholding virtue, and seeking my personal flourishing."

My views on ethics have little directly to do with the fact of evolution, or obsessing over death.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Serving Zion]

I find it amusing when atheists ask about the "problem of evil" because it reminds me an awful lot of a cigarette smoker coming up to a non-smoker and asking "Why do I smoke?" and the non smoker is like uh... don't.

That's not really an answer for them though, and that's exactly the problem!

The BTK Killer was actually a deacon at a church--imagine that! (I would like to have a talk with the pastor some day, whatever church it was--but I know that will never happen). He should be held accountable and the public should get to know whether he is still an active Pastor somewhere.

IMO, it's the ones who sit in that church and give the authority to him to stand before them in Jesus' name - they are guilty for having given the authority to him. The pastor would have not been able to do that if they had not first given it to him. (Matthew 23:11-12, Proverbs 25:26, Matthew 8:11-12).

I may sin and tell my wife to "shut up" or something dumb like that

Do you understand why love is breaking down in your relationship? It's really important to find out. "Love is not provoked" .. and "love does no harm to a neighbour". There is somehow a break down of this, and we know that "God is love. He who stays in love stays in God, and God in him" .. so somehow the devil is getting a foothold in your lives (maybe it is a burden carried in from work, having been subjected to an abusive demoniac all day, then coming home and not having the burden lifted .. maybe it is a hidden sin, like some people who let their mind wander from their spouse, thinking that "what they don't know won't harm them" .. well, the behaviours of the spirit are not always discerned, but they are nonetheless real).

Can we all agree that me fantasizing about killing my boss is sin, but actually killing my boss is a greater sin because the consequences of my sin are much greater?

No, I can't. 1 John 3:15. You need to get free from all things that tempt you to sin. If you actually did it, you would be forced to confess your sin.

if everyone would simply follow God and His ways, then we would all share, we would all love one another. We would never stab another person for their burritos, we would have way less poverty and disease--we would not have war, or famines (or at least they would be greatly decreased).

I agree with this

Use your free will to stop being part of the problem and become part of the love-solution.

I agree with this too. Free will without evil would not produce evil, therefore evil is the root cause of the problem of evil.

Lastly, if you say "Even if we all held hands and sang kumbaya, we would still have trees occasionally falling on houses and killing sleeping infants in their cribs" This is a result of the fall of Adam and Eve.

Speculation and false-cause fallacy. I cannot permit Christianity to be represented this way.

Now disease has entered the world--now the Earth is working against us, the devil will be at enmity with our seed, but he will bruise our heel and we will bruise his head (sounds worse for him) now Eve has pain in child-birth and has a lust to have her husband's authority.
You ate the apple and so did I. The sooner we come to grips with this, the better. The sooner we stop saying "But why am I punished for Adam's sin?" the better, because if it were you or I, we would have also sinned eventually. Maybe we would have taken longer, or maybe shorter-- but there is a saying.. maybe you've heard it but never quite understood what it meant: "Laws were made to be broken" (Usually people say this while laughing and shoplifting) but what it means is that The Commandments were given to show that we could not keep them, no matter how hard we tried--God was showing us that we need Him--and His saving grace. Atonement for our sins.
And He has provided for us that bridge to the Father through His torturous death.
Once you accept Christ--the problem of evil disappears (for you). Will you still stub your toe in the garage--sure--but remember what I said--all this life is, is a means to an end. WE ALL DIE.

If you have the spirit of God in you when you die, then you go to be with Him for all eternity, no more tears, no more pain. No memory of it. But if you die because one of your heathen brethren stabs you tomorrow night for your burrito supreme, then you die like the beasts of the field, no different than a buffalo who dies in an unusually brutal Kansas winter--does this offend you? I recommend you take God's olive branch as soon as possible.

Dear Lord! .. you can speak for your self.

There is no problem of evil-- there is a "problem" of free will--and people using it to spit in God's face.

That has been the problem ever since Eve coveted God's domain, and now we all must struggle against those who are so diseased to keep spreading the words of death of uttering their futile thoughts in His name.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Let me get right to the point. Most of the terrible evil in this life is caused by the actions of godless hedonists.
Even if you can point to a few horrible cases of priests molesting children for years, they were not behaving Christlike. Let me put it another way-- no one has ever sinned and been Christ-like at the same time. You could almost say they were behaving more like godless heathens when molesting children.

It wasn't a few horrible cases of priests raping children. It was 10% of all priests worldwide. Imagine being raped by every left-handed person you meet.

Also, the Catholic Church officially engaged in a worldwide conspiracy to cover it all up and effectively perpetuate child rape for "God knows" how long.

So no, buddy, it wasn't just a few priests. It was every high ranking member of the Catholic Church on earth for the last 50 years, and that's just what we are able to prove. It probably goes back over a thousand years.

But no, let's pin everything on godless heathens.

 

[Moral Orel]

It wasn't a few horrible cases of priests raping children. It was 10% of all priests worldwide. Imagine being raped by every left-handed person you meet.

Also, the Catholic Church officially engaged in a worldwide conspiracy to cover it all up and effectively perpetuate child rape for "God knows" how long.

So no, buddy, it wasn't just a few priests. It was every high ranking member of the Catholic Church on earth for the last 50 years, and that's just what we are able to prove. It probably goes back over a thousand years.

But no, let's pin everything on godless heathens.

Did you see the movie "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri"? Frances McDormand gives a great speech to a priest comparing the Catholic Church to The Bloods and the Crips in the context of Rico laws.

"Just like those Crips and just like those Bloods, you're culpable, man, 'cause you joined the gang"

 

[Undead]

First of all, the poll on the front page is hilarious!
Atheists (it seems) for the most part have a hard time with honesty.
7 votes for some born-again believer walking from church service decides to stab someone for their tacos. Hilarious responses.

So the question of evil (for the average atheist it seems) is that Born Again Christians are walking around committing the majority of murders rapes and arsons in the world.

Ok thank you for playing.
/thread

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

First of all, the poll on the front page is hilarious!
Atheists (it seems) for the most part have a hard time with honesty.
7 votes for some born-again believer walking from church service decides to stab someone for their tacos. Hilarious responses.

What's hilarious is that you intentionally made a poll with dishonest and loaded options, and can't seem to fathom why it wouldn't turn out the way you rigged it.

Maybe it's because we're not stupid, and not interested in playing your game.

So the question of evil (for the average atheist it seems) is that Born Again Christians are walking around committing the majority of murders rapes and arsons in the world.

No one gives a ghost's fart what you think a "true" Christian is.

What was actually said is that majority atheistic/secular societies have lower rates of violent and property crimes than majority religious societies - as in, any religion. On that fact alone, your thesis falls flat on its face.

Ok thank you for playing.
/thread

Goodbye. You should try thinking through your words more carefully next time, and maybe doing some basic research before you make assertions that are objectively false.

 

[Undead]

I'm glad you can lie to yourself and believe a born-again Christian would be the one who stabbed you and not some heathen. You are a funny one.
Probably a Pastor did it too.. so no one would suspect..

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I'm glad you can lie to yourself and believe a born-again Christian would be the one who stabbed you and not some heathen. You are a funny one.
Probably a Pastor did it too.. so no one would suspect..

Oh, you're back again. That was fast.

Again, your poll is dishonest and loaded. As such, what's funny is your sense of indignation at the answers you got. As if anyone is obligated to even take you seriously.

 

[Undead]

Ok I'm gone again (until tomorrow)

 

[Eudaimonist]

So the question of evil (for the average atheist it seems) is that Born Again Christians are walking around committing the majority of murders rapes and arsons in the world.

Who said that? Are you sure that it is the atheists that are being dishonest?

In any case, I agree with some of those above that the poll is dishonest and loaded. Evil actions take far more forms than simple criminal acts such as "murders, rapes, and arson". In order to address the issue fully, we'd need to consider many more issues, and not necessarily just those that are designed to create a "gotcha!" moment.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[devolved]

Most of the terrible evil in this life is caused by the actions of godless hedonists.

Can you provide some data for that? For example, take a look at the prison population stats.

 

[Sanoy]

It's more likely the sodium content of their entire menu that is the cause of that stabbing chest pain in the parking lot.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Can you provide some data for that? For example, take a look at the prison population stats.

Any response you get is just going to be a variation of a No True Scotsman fallacy.

 

[Silmarien]

First of all, the poll on the front page is hilarious!
Atheists (it seems) for the most part have a hard time with honesty.
7 votes for some born-again believer walking from church service decides to stab someone for their tacos. Hilarious responses.

So the question of evil (for the average atheist it seems) is that Born Again Christians are walking around committing the majority of murders rapes and arsons in the world.

Ok thank you for playing.
/thread

I don't know, if a Born Again Christian is going to run around telling atheists that they're the root of all evil, I think they have good reason to think they're more likely to be stabbed by a Born Again Christian than another atheist.

 

[Serving Zion]

I don't know, if a Born Again Christian is going to run around telling atheists that they're the root of all evil, I think they have good reason to think they're more likely to be stabbed by a Born Again Christian than another atheist.

I see a couple of things about this.

1. It is possible for a Christian to tell atheists that they are the root of all evil without having a malicious intention, so therefore the atheist does not necessarily have a good reason to think they are more likely to be stabbed by a "Born Again Christian" - there is a possible effect of prejudice in the atheist that misconstrues the Christian's motive, as we see in Romans 2 ("To the pure all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Both their mind and conscience are defiled." - Titus 1:15).

2. If the so-called Christian is acting from wrath, it is a bitterness that has it's root in hatred, then they aren't really born-again as the scriptural definition would put it: "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer—and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." - 1 John 1:15, so that "by their fruits you will know them" - even to the extent of an atheist that doesn't have enough faith to believe in Jesus, but still has enough faith in what they know holiness to be, that they are trusting in who they know Him to be if it turns out that they will meet Him in the day of judgement: "But whoever causes one of these little ones who trust in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone put around his neck and to be thrown into the sea!" and "Whenever you did it to even the least of these, my brethren, you were doing it to me". This would lead us to discuss that a born-again Christian cannot simply be defined as someone who confesses that they believe themselves to be one (and vice-versa - John 10:16), and indeed, many who have taken the broad road, who offend and drive away the least of His brethren will eventually be forced to see their own hypocrisy (eg: Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 8:11-12).

 

[Silmarien]

1. It is possible for a Christian to tell atheists that they are the root of all evil without having a malicious intention, so therefore the atheist does not necessarily have a good reason to think they are more likely to be stabbed by a "Born Again Christian" - there is a possible effect of prejudice in the atheist that misconstrues the Christian's motive, as we see in Romans 2 ("To the pure all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Both their mind and conscience are defiled." - Titus 1:15).

I am not going to comment on whether it is possible to tell anyone that they are the root of all evil without having malicious intent, but the fact of the matter is that even if one person were able to express that viewpoint in a loving fashion, an atheist would have reason to worry that other, less gracious people sharing that viewpoint might act with actual violence.

Atheists have historically faced considerable prejudice, and if Born Again Christians can't learn to treat them with respect and not make inflammatory statements like the OP's, then they should not react with outrage at the notion that violence might ever be expected of a Christian.

Granted, I doubt that anyone was voting seriously in this poll, but in a world where atheism is punishable by death in some countries, it is a bit silly to expect atheists to fear other atheists more than religious people.

(Also, blaming all evil on atheists completely sidesteps the Problem of Natural Evil, but that is another problem altogether.)

 

[Serving Zion]

I am not going to comment on whether it is possible to tell anyone that they are the root of all evil without having malicious intent, but the fact of the matter is that even if one person were able to express that viewpoint in a loving fashion, an atheist would have reason to worry that other, less gracious people sharing that viewpoint might act with actual violence.

Atheists have historically faced considerable prejudice, and if Born Again Christians can't learn to treat them with respect and not make inflammatory statements like the OP's, then they should not react with outrage at the notion that violence might ever be expected of a Christian.

Granted, I doubt that anyone was voting seriously in this poll, but in a world where atheism is punishable by death in some countries, it is a bit silly to expect atheists to fear other atheists more than religious people.

(Also, blaming all evil on atheists completely sidesteps the Problem of Natural Evil, but that is another problem altogether.)

It actually should be said that the so-called Christians who are said to have done the objectionable crimes, are in fact atheists. They have no fear of God whatsoever (consider the quotes of my previous post).

The root of all evil is the denial of critical truth. I do expect that some people will have arrived at an atheistic worldview for good reasons (essentially having been turned away from Christianity by the wolves in sheep's clothing).

it is a bit silly to expect atheists to fear other atheists more than religious people

As an aside, this type of favouritism (loyalty to a clique) is an aggravating factor in vice-versa. Any 'ism' represents a prejudice to injustice based upon a stereotype - the enemy of real justice that is through discernment of truth. It seems that neither party is immune to that as a result of party membership.