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Question for Amillennialists

parousia70

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Thanks for that clarification. But even in a figurative/symbolic/metaphorical/prophetic sense, it is pretty hard to justify how satan is so active in the world right now considering the wording of bound (with a chain also), thrown into a bottomless pit and then a seal put on. The wording is pretty definite.
What is it that leads you to belive Satan is "so active in the world right now"?

Scripture Says the heart of man is evil above ALL ELSE (Even Satan) Jeremiah 17:9, and that each one is drawn away and tempted "by his own desires" James 1:14

Scripture nowhere teaches that the ability of Satan to freely roam and deceive is somehow necessary, in order for Human beings to engage in the most wicked behaviors imaginable. Scripture confirms we are FULLY capable of that all by ourselves.

This notion that active Satanic influence is somehow a REQUIREMENT before Human Beings can practice wickedness and that without it, Humans couldn’t sin, is nowhere taught in scripture, and is in fact explicitly taught against.

Indeed, Human Beings would be in no need of redemption from THEIR OWN SIN, if it was all Satan's Fault and people just couldnt help themselves since a "free roaming" Satan is responsible for our wicked deeds, and if He were Bound, most especially bound in chains, It would be impossible for Humans in massive numbers to practice the highest degrees wickedness, as your OP seems to suggest.

So, now that we have dispatched with the unscriptural notion that we can somehow accurately "justify" the "level of satanic activity in the world" by measuring the level of observable human wickedness, I'll repeat my opening question:

What is it that leads you to belive Satan is "so active in the world right now"?
 
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1Tonne

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What is it that leads you to belive Satan is "so active in the world right now"?
There are scriptures that point to satan still being around. That he is not hidden away in a bottomless pit right now and nor is he bound.
1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour."
1Thes 2:18 "For we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, more than once—and Satan hindered us."
Rev 2:13 "I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold firmly to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." Satin cannot be in both a bottomless pit and also dwelling in Asia Minor.
Overall, scripture says satan is still around and so amillennialism has really has a big issue. Amillenialists will make up mystical meanings for these scriptures and also for the 1000 years so that these verses can fit their theories.

Man's heart is evil. I do not disagree. But I also believe scripture that satan is not bound right now with an unbreakable chain and caste into a bottomless pit and then sealed. Even if we take Rev 20:1-3 in a figurative way, it will still mean he is fully out of the picture. That is what the language says. But currently he is walking about like a roaring lion.
 
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Truth7t7

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No matter where we put Babylon falling, it appears from Revelation 18:2 that it becomes a type of cage that holds every evil spirit or being, which seems to me that this is also when Satan is bound.
Preterism in 66-70AD fulfillment is false, just as dispensationalism's pre-trib rapture and millennial kingdom is false

Mystery Babylon spoken of in Revelation chapter 18:24 is Jerusalem as you have been shown, Daniel's AID us future, and the bad guy will be present on this earth until the second coming (The End)

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord
 
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Truth7t7

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What is it that leads you to belive Satan is "so active in the world right now"?

Scripture Says the heart of man is evil above ALL ELSE (Even Satan) Jeremiah 17:9, and that each one is drawn away and tempted "by his own desires" James 1:14

Scripture nowhere teaches that the ability of Satan to freely roam and deceive is somehow necessary, in order for Human beings to engage in the most wicked behaviors imaginable. Scripture confirms we are FULLY capable of that all by ourselves.

This notion that active Satanic influence is somehow a REQUIREMENT before Human Beings can practice wickedness is nowhere taught in scripture, and is in fact explicitly taught against.

Indeed, Human Beings would be in no need of redemption from THEIR OWN SINS, if it was all Satan's Fault and people just couldnt help themselves since a "free roaming" Satan is responsible for our wicked deeds, and if He were Bound, It would be impossible for Humans in massive numbers to practice the highest degrees wickedness, as your OP seems to suggest.

So, now that we have dispatched with the unscriptural notion that we can somehow accurately "justify" the "level of satanic activity in the world" by measuring the level of human wickedness, I'll repeat my opening question:

What is it that leads you to belive Satan is "so active in the world right now"?
The Bible clearly teaches that humans are possessed by devils, this is seen throughout the scripture, just one example being the man in the caves inhabitants by a legion that were dealt into the swine

These devils are part of Satan's Kingdom on this earth, your suggestion Satan isn't active today is a big smile
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I have a question that I have not been able to figure out.
Amillenialist believe that we are in the 1000-year reign right now.
If this is correct, why is there so much evil in the world? Why are their false religions deceiving people, murder, rape, theft and many other things.
Because Satan's binding doesn't have anything to do with taking free will away from people (which necessitates the possibility of people choosing to do either good or evil), it has to do with keeping Satan from preventing the gospel from shining the light of Christ and the hope of eternal life throughout the world.

The Amillennialist understanding of the binding of Satan is based on passages like this:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Notice here that in Old Testament times, before Christ's death, the devil, Satan, held the power of death. But, "by his death" Jesus broke "the power of him who" had held "the power of death", which was the devil. And the result of that has been freeing multitudes who had previously been "held in slavery by their fear of death". The hope of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ has removed the fear of death for multitudes of people in the New Testament era. So, the impact that Christ's death, resurrection and the subsequent preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit has had a tremendous impact on Satan compared to what he was able to do in Old Testament times.

In the 1000 reign of Christ, satan was not only bound but he was also put into a pit and sealed so that he was unable to deceive people until the 1000 years were up. But many are being deceived right now.
It's not talking about Satan's ability to deceive in general. Spiritual discernment is required to understand scripture, especially in a book like Revelation. Just read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 and you'll see that we need spiritual discernment to understand scripture. Are you aware of that? Are you using any spiritual discernment when you just assume that Revelation 20 is supposed to all be interpreted literally? Can Satan, a spirit being, really be literally chained up with a great chain resulting in him being incapacitated? No, right? A spirit being can't be literally chained up. So, something is being described in a symbolic way there. Think about it.

You should also think about what other scripture says about the timing of Christ reigning. Other scripture says that He reigns now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6, etc.). Should those scriptures not be taken into account when interpreting Revelation 20? Of course they should be, right?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If it’s figurative and symbolic, which apocalyptic literature is, then it’s not to be interpreted as a literal chain and literal bottomless pit with a literal seal out on it.

But I agree, “traditional” amil has Satan in a bottomless pit following christs death, resurrection, and ascension, with satans little season as still futute. However that is hard to reconcile with Satan prowling like a lion, deceiving as an angel of light, and hindering the nations from receiving the gospel on the first century.
It's not hard to reconcile that at all when you consider that the gospel DID go out into the world in the first century despite the attempts to stop it. Sure, there was some resistance, but that isn't what Satan's binding is about. It's not about him being totally incapacitated as premils believe, it's about him being restrained from having the kind of power he had in Old Testament times, like what passages such as Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8 and Acts 26:15-18 talk about. In Old Testament times he held the power of death, but in New Testament times he does not (Hebrews 2:14-15). I am honestly baffled as to how anyone would not relate that fact to his binding.

You are making the same mistake as Premils by only referring to 1 Peter 5:8 while seemingly ignoring 1 Peter 5:9 which says that we should resist the devil. It's not as if people are just powerless against his attacks. James 4:7 says that if we submit to God and resist the devil he must flee from us. Was that true in OT times? No. The reason he must flee from us if we resist Him is because he knows he cannot fight against the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. I believe Satan's binding relates to all of that, but it seems that you don't take any of that into consideration, just like premils.
 
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Truth7t7

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Because Satan's binding doesn't have anything to do with taking free will away from people (which necessitates the possibility of people choosing to do either good or evil), it has to do with keeping Satan from preventing the gospel from shining the light of Christ and the hope of eternal life throughout the world.
Your claim is "False", Satan's binding in Revelation 20:1-3 is specific to him deceiving the nation's to battle, just as scripture teaches below, plain and simple before your eyes

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle
of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 
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Truth7t7

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The Amillennialist understanding of the binding of Satan is based on passages like this:
"You speak for reformed preterist Ahmillennialism"

You don't speak for Truth7t7 who is Ahmillennialist and doesn't follow reformed preterist eschatology as you do

Scripture Teaches Daniel's AOD, and The Great Tribulation are "Future" events unfulfilled, there will be a future literal human man as (The Beast) there will be literal prophets returned as the (Two Witnesses)

There won't be a pre-trib rapture or a millennial kingdom on this earth, the church will be present on this earth to be eyewitnesses of the Lord's second coming in the heavens in fire and final judgement (The End)

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord
 
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Truth7t7

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If it’s figurative and symbolic, which apocalyptic literature is, then it’s not to be interpreted as a literal chain and literal bottomless pit with a literal seal out on it.

But I agree, “traditional” amil has Satan in a bottomless pit following christs death, resurrection, and ascension, with satans little season as still futute. However that is hard to reconcile with Satan prowling like a lion, deceiving as an angel of light, and hindering the nations from receiving the gospel on the first century.

That’s why as a “non-traditional” amil, I would argue it’s not supposed to be understood as “traditional” amil. Revelation 20 is simply a metaphorical, apocalyptic story that contains the truths of the Gospel of the kingdom as already taught by Jesus and the apostles in the gospels, book of acts, and epistles.

What I think can’t be reconciled is the FACT that premillennialism’s belief on the revelation 20 is no where taught I. The gospels, epistles, nor book of acts
Please refer to post #27

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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1Tonne

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Are you using any spiritual discernment
I believe I am. I believe that many people put their own mystical meanings to Revelation. They have done it so much that the truth is distorted. So, it takes spiritual decrement to know when others are going on a tangent and when to stay on the truth. (Not trying to be rude here)
Can Satan, a spirit being, really be literally chained up with a great chain resulting in him being incapacitated?
That one you cannot answer. It could well be that there could be a literal chained. But personally, it does not need to be a literal chain. If we read the wording in its entirety, with the wording "bottomless Pit" and "Sealed", the language states that he is completely out of the way.
So, it can be symbolic. I do not mind. The language states what is intended.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I believe that satan is not just bound during the 1000 years, but he is also put into a bottomless pit and also a seal put on him. Amillennialist miss the part that he is put in a bottomless pit, so like a prison, and then a seal is put on him too. So, it is pretty clear that during this time, he will not be having an active part in the world.
Scripture also talks about the beast being in the bottomless pit (Acts 17:8). Should we understand that to be talking about a literal beast being bound in a literal bottomless pit? It also talks about locusts being in the bottomless pit and being let out at the fifth trumpet (Revelation 9:1-11). Should we understand that to be talking about literal locusts being bound in a literal bottomless pit?

Revelation 20 is not talking about Satan himself being literally chained up in a literal bottomless pit. It's talking about a dragon, which symbolically represents Satan, being chained up in a prison. A spirit being like Satan cannot be literally chained up in a prison. You're missing the symbolism there and taking it literally instead as if a literal great chain could actually be used to literally bind a spirit being.

But this does not mean that there will not be evil. For man's heart is evil and so even without satan doing his work during this time, we could still choose not to obey Christ.

I know you have said that he is only bound, but if he is put in a bottomless pit as well as being bound and sealed, I fail to see how he is like a roaring lion that may devour. One that is bound and put into a pit that has no bottom is definitely not walking about.
You're only failing to see that because of taking it all literally. And you are also not taking into consideration the verse that follows 1 Peter 5:8 which talks about resisting the devil by standing firm in the faith. Why do Premils focus only on him seeking who he may devour while ignoring the fact that we can resist him? And James 4:7 says that if we do resist him then he must flee from us. That is because he is bound. In Old Testament times, no one could resist him like that because they didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. So, he held the power of death in those times which allowed him to keep people in slavery to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). But, that all changed in New Testament times because of the death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I do not mind if the bottomless pit is a figurative place, a spiritual place or a literal place, but it is a place where satan is bound and out of the way.
How are you coming to that conclusion if it is a figurative place? Why would you interpret a figurative place in a literal way, which is what you're doing if you assume that him being bound figuratively renders him completely incapacitated. That is how one would understand a literal binding in a literal place, not a figurative binding in a figurative place. And, it makes no sense to interpret it as a literal binding in a figurative place. There's no consistency in that.

Remember it is a bottomless pit. What is important to note is that he is currently very active right now. We have Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and many other false religions. Not to mention many other evil things going on. Look at the stuff Isis did. It seems as though satan is pretty free right now. This seems pretty much the same as before Christ assentation. I do not see him being restrained at all.
You don't see him as even being restrained? Have you never read this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Can you see here that Paul spoke about "the mystery of iniquity" already being at work in his day and, yet, it was restrained to an extent? And he spoke of a future time during which there would be a mass falling away from the faith. Why would that happen? Because iniquity would no longer be restrained during that time. Notice it says regarding the coming of "that wicked" it would be "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved". This shows that the restraint of wickedness involved the restraint of "the working of Satan". This shows that this time period, which I equate with Satan's little season when he is loosed, requires a restraint that had previously been on Satan to be removed.

The removal of this restraint of Satan and wickedness results in the mass falling away and increase in wickedness that Paul wrote about. Jesus also talked about a future time where deception and wickedness would increase and the love of many would grow cold (Matthew 24:11-12).

If Satan has not been restrained at all during New Testament times, then what do you make of passages like 2 Thess 2:1-12 and passages like this:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

If Satan was not restrained at all, then how could it be true that the power of death he once held was taken away from him, resulting in multitudes "who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death" being set free because of the new hope of eternal life that Jesus provided by way of His death and resurrection?

Just because it came first does not mean it is correct. Revelation is named Revelation for a reason. It is to be revealed. The Greek word apokalypsis translated, denotes “an uncovering” or “a disclosure”. Knowing this, there is good chance that the first understanding is probably going to be an incorrect understanding as the true understanding had not been uncovered.
It is quite possible that an understanding of these scriptures had not been revealed at that time. Thus, we have amillennialism.
I have no idea where you came up with this idea, but this is only something you have made up and nothing more.

I agree with this too as I have stated just above. Christ can reign in a literal sense for 1000 years, but people will still have their own evil desires.

You will find that other viewpoints also look at the whole Bible. They just don't put as many mystical meanings to make their theories fit. Such as 1000 years is actually 2000 years. Also, even though in the 1000 years, satan has been taken away and put in a bottomless pit, he still seems pretty free right now. He is only bound a little.
Only bound a little? Really? He was not bound at all in Old Testament times and what happened then? How many people were saved in those times? We know there was only 8 people in Noah's day. There weren't many saved throughout the OT times, right? What about NT times? Has there not been multitudes that have been saved? Far more than in OT times? Why do you only focus on the negative and not think about things like this?

#1. Satan is still working in the world. (Correct. Definitely not bound and put into a pit and sealed. You have just made a big hole in your proof. In a court of law, you would lose with such evidence.)
#2. Yet still, Satan was somehow restrained. (Correct. But you forgot, cast into a bottomless pit and sealed. Another big hole in your proof. (NOTE: You said that amillennialisist look at the whole bible, but you choose to miss the pit and sealed.))
#3. After a while, that restraint would be removed (Agreed. After the literal 1000 years, he will be set free for a short time)
#4. And The wickedness of Satan revealed (Agreed)
#5. And then Christ will come and destroy Him (Agreed)

Not just bound. Please read the whole scripture. Not just parts of the bible. He was also put into a bottomless pit and sealed. I don't know of anyone who could climb out of a bottomless pit especially when he is bound and then walk about like a roaring lion.
What you're saying here would be true only if it's talking about him being literally bound and incapacitated, but can a spirit being be literally chained up? I say no. What say you?
 
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Your claim is "False", Satan's binding in Revelation 20:1-3 is specific to him deceiving the nation's to battle, just as scripture teaches below, plain and simple before your eyes

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle
of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
You think way more like a Premil than an Amil with your hyper-literal approach to interpreting the book of Revelation. Honestly, it's embarrassing that you are an Amil since you get so many things wrong. It seems like a miracle that you don't interpret the thousand years literally since you interpret almost everything else literally.

Please explain to me in detail how the logistics of this supposed literal gathering of people around the world for battle into one location will work.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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"You speak for reformed preterist Ahmillennialism"

You don't speak for Truth7t7 who is Ahmillennialist and doesn't follow reformed preterist eschatology as you do
Whatever. Get over yourself. You're in your own group by yourself. I have never seen an Amil before who is a hyper-futurist like you. I don't need to cater my comments just for you.
 
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Truth7t7

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Scripture also talks about the beast being in the bottomless pit (Acts 17:8). Should we understand that to be talking about a literal beast being bound in a literal bottomless pit? It also talks about locusts being in the bottomless pit and being let out at the fifth trumpet (Revelation 9:1-11). Should we understand that to be talking about literal locusts being bound in a literal bottomless pit?

Revelation 20 is not talking about Satan himself being literally chained up in a literal bottomless pit. It's talking about a dragon, which symbolically represents Satan, being chained up in a prison. A spirit being like Satan cannot be literally chained up in a prison. You're missing the symbolism there and taking it literally instead as if a literal great chain could actually be used to literally bind a spirit being.


You're only failing to see that because of taking it all literally. And you are also not taking into consideration the verse that follows 1 Peter 5:8 which talks about resisting the devil by standing firm in the faith. Why do Premils focus only on him seeking who he may devour while ignoring the fact that we can resist him? And James 4:7 says that if we do resist him then he must flee from us. That is because he is bound. In Old Testament times, no one could resist him like that because they didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. So, he held the power of death in those times which allowed him to keep people in slavery to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). But, that all changed in New Testament times because of the death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.


How are you coming to that conclusion if it is a figurative place? Why would you interpret a figurative place in a literal way, which is what you're doing if you assume that him being bound figuratively renders him completely incapacitated. That is how one would understand a literal binding in a literal place, not a figurative binding in a figurative place. And, it makes no sense to interpret it as a literal binding in a figurative place. There's no consistency in that.


You don't see him as even being restrained? Have you never read this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Can you see here that Paul spoke about "the mystery of iniquity" already being at work in his day and, yet, it was restrained to an extent? And he spoke of a future time during which there would be a mass falling away from the faith. Why would that happen? Because iniquity would no longer be restrained during that time. Notice it says regarding the coming of "that wicked" it would be "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved". This shows that the restraint of wickedness involved the restraint of "the working of Satan". This shows that this time period, which I equate with Satan's little season when he is loosed, requires a restraint that had previously been on Satan to be removed.

The removal of this restraint of Satan and wickedness results in the mass falling away and increase in wickedness that Paul wrote about. Jesus also talked about a future time where deception and wickedness would increase and the love of many would grow cold (Matthew 24:11-12).

If Satan has not been restrained at all during New Testament times, then what do you make of passages like 2 Thess 2:1-12 and passages like this:

Hebrews 214 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

If Satan was not restrained at all, then how could it be true that the power of death he once held was taken away from him, resulting in multitudes "who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death" being set free because of the new hope of eternal life that Jesus provided by way of His death and resurrection?


I have no idea where you came up with this idea, but this is only something you have made up and nothing more.


Only bound a little? Really? He was not bound at all in Old Testament times and what happened then? How many people were saved in those times? We know there was only 8 people in Noah's day. There weren't many saved throughout the OT times, right? What about NT times? Has there not been multitudes that have been saved? Far more than in OT times? Why do you only focus on the negative and not think about things like this?


What you're saying here would be true only if it's talking about him being literally bound and incapacitated, but can a spirit being be literally chained up? I say no. What say you?
You give complete disregard to post #27 that clearly shows (Deceive The Nations) is to the final battle, Revelation 20:7-8 interprets Revelation 20:1-3 and you know this

Your continued claim Satan is bound from the gospel spreading in Revelation 20:1-3 is 100% false, he is bound by the 6th vial being poured out, that will loose him to perform God's will
 
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TribulationSigns

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Man's heart is evil. I do not disagree. But I also believe scripture that satan is not bound right now with an unbreakable chain and caste into a bottomless pit and then sealed. Even if we take Rev 20:1-3 in a figurative way, it will still mean he is fully out of the picture. That is what the language says. But currently he is walking about like a roaring lion.

You still don't get it.

How the spirit Satan can be bound and in a pit (Revelation 20), and yet still go about as a roaring lion in the world is a matter of "for whom he was bound," and to what degree. I use "the analogy" of a lion that is bound or chained to a stake in an open field. A blind person that walks through that field and strays into the area limited by the chain, is going to be devoured by the lion. Because the lion is free to roam to the length of the chain throughout the circumference of the area in all directions. By the same token, those who can see are going to avoid walking through the circumference or circle where the chained lion can devour them. That's the analogy of Satan being bound with a chain that Revelation chapter 20 puts forth. God has given "the elect" power so that Satan cannot harm them. He is "bound" from doing so, while he is still free to devour the spiritually blind. For example, the closer we walk with God, the farther away from the devil's sphere we will be. The more we submit ourselves to God, the farther away the devil will be. For God is the one who has restrained Satan from us. This is what the chain signifies! And it is not some literal/physical chain or abyss, it is spiritual restraint. By the grace of His cross, we are secure (sealed) that he cannot harm us. Indeed, he flees from us because the children of God have power over serpents by the grace of God.

James 4:6-8
  • "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
  • Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
  • Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."
Satan flees from the elect because the elect is sealed "that" the spirit Satan has no more power to bind them. His power is itself "bound" as if he were chained up and cast into an abyss of nothingness for their sakes. It's all about Satan's binding "for the elect," of the world, and not for the world.

John 17:9

  • "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
Christ came to save "HIS people," not (Matthew 1:21) all and every people on Earth! That's the point Premillennialists (and Postmillennialists) are missing in thinking Christ will come to evangelize or Christianize the whole world. On the contrary, Christ Christianizes "HIS people" from out of the world, and from every nation in the world. Thus Satan was bound from devouring the elect of the world, and yet free to devour the wicked and unfaithful of the world. Indeed, the very point your theology misses is that Satan "was bound for the sake of the elect." Unfortunately, Premillennialists usually have the idea that he was (or will be) bound for the sake of the whole world. Which is NOT the case.

Let me ask you, "What do you think makes the Gospel 'good news' if not the announcement of the defeat and binding of Satan that the salvation has come and the salvation of God's people might be accomplished (Matthew 12:29)? How then are the elect set at liberty from bondage if Satan has not yet been defeated and bound FIRST?! How then could his house be spoiled?

Hebrews 2:14-15
  • "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
  • And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
By Christ death, He bound Satan in the bottomless pit, and set us at liberty (John 8:35-36; Matthew 12:29) from his spiritual prison. For example, he led captivity captive, so that He could give gifts to men, by His death and resurrection. These scriptures finally have to sink in and have some actual meaning, else they are "just words."

Psalms 68:18-20
  • "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
  • Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
  • He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death."
Salvation has come only BECAUSE Christ led captivity captive. Satan, who held us bound in his prison house (Luke 13:16), has by Christ been bound and placed into his own prison house (bottomless pit) so that we might be set at liberty. If Satan has not been defeated, then there is no Peace (salvation) with God as yet. But God's word tells us that Christians are at Peace with God through the work of Christ, thus necessarily Satan has been defeated and made powerless against them. God gave His people the power of the kingdom, that whatever they shall bind on earth, shall have already been bound in heaven, and whatever they shall loose on earth, shall have already been loosed in heaven. The evil spirits are made subject to the saints "because" Satan has been bound. And the reason is so that Christ could build his church.

Luke 10:19-20
  • "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
  • Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."
When Christ gave the Apostles the power to pick up serpents in Mark chapter 16, He gave them the power over Satan, whom He had bound from harming them. One should always remember that Satan's binding is not to Christianize the whole world, but that the elect could go forth as vessels unto God's word of evangelizing the elect of the world. That is why God's restraining hand was on Satan so that He first build his church. After this, He will remove his restraining hand (chain) from Satan, he will do everything he can to prevent anyone from getting saved at all! At least for a short season before Christ returns to rapture His people who are still "alive and remain" on Earth.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I believe I am. I believe that many people put their own mystical meanings to Revelation. They have done it so much that the truth is distorted. So, it takes spiritual decrement to know when others are going on a tangent and when to stay on the truth. (Not trying to be rude here)
How exactly are you using spiritual discernment when seemingly just assuming that a passage within one of the most highly symbolic books in scripture is meant to be taken literally?

That one you cannot answer. It could well be that there could be a literal chained.
Spirit beings are able to possess human beings. They are not physical beings. So, no, they cannot be literally chained. It's talking about a dragon being chained in a prison. It's symbolically representing a spiritual reality using physical entities like a dragon, a chain and a prison.

But personally, it does not need to be a literal chain. If we read the wording in its entirety, with the wording "bottomless Pit" and "Sealed", the language states that he is completely out of the way.
That is your assumption. But, if it's not all literal, then you have to determine what is he being sealed off and bound from doing? Anything at all? Or just certain things?

So, it can be symbolic. I do not mind. The language states what is intended.
If it can be symbolic then why do you assume it's talking about Satan being completely incapacitated and unable to do anything at all? I don't believe that makes any sense.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You give complete disregard to post #27 that clearly shows (Deceive The Nations) is to the final battle, Revelation 20:7-8 interprets Revelation 20:1-3 and you know this

Your continued claim Satan is bound from the gospel spreading in Revelation 20:1-3 is 100% false, he is bound by the 6th vial being poured out, that will loose him to perform God's will
I am absolutely fine with disregarding the beliefs of someone who has no one that shares your overall beliefs. You are one of many on this forum and other forums like this who have a doctrine all to yourself. The opinions of people like that don't mean much to me because I know that God doesn't reveal things only to one person.
 
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Truth7t7

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You think way more like a Premil than an Amil with your hyper-literal approach to interpreting the book of Revelation.
"I'm Ahmillennialist", a person that denies a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth just as you believe

1.) Reformed preterist eschatology falsely teaches 66-70AD fulfillment of Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation, these are future events unfulfilled

2.) Reformed preterist eschatology denies a future literal human man as (The Beast)

3.) Reformed preterist eschatology denies future prophets to return in the (Two Witnesses)

All three items above are literal and future unfulfilled, it's that simple

P.S. I'm Ahmillennialist, as I deny a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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Truth7t7

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I think to deceive the nations - means to deceive the nations into rebelling against God.

I use the kjv.
As was shown in post #27 (Deceive The Nations) is to battle, as Revelation 20:7-8 interprets (Deceive The Nations) is to battle, simple and easy to understand

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle
of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 
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