Question....for Adventists

YeshuamySalvation · Apr 1, 2006

2cents said:
4. Does enforcing Jewish food laws, and (lets be honest we all know that a good SDA is a vegetarian), line up with any New Covenant scriptures, and could you please reference them?

Vegetarianism is not something Paul endorsed but neither did he believe the strong believer should be a stumbling block to those that are weak in the faith, those who abstain from flesh foods as is the case with most Adventist "are weak in the faith."

5. Do you believe in the investigative judgment as taught by your church, and can you prove it by New Covenant scripture?

It doesnt have to be proven by the New Covenant.. It is not proven by the Old nor the New, the Old is not a different gospel then the New it is one and the same. The Investigative Judgement is not biblical, the only support you can find for that doctrine is in Edison vision, Crosier & Ellen Whites writings.

2cents · Apr 2, 2006

OntheDL said:
That's not the point. Does your salvation depend on what other people do or may not do?

Yes it is the point, Mt. 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." How does an SDA accomplish that?

OntheDL said:

So? Where is the scripture that says we don't have to keep the sabbath because Jesus is our rest? The scripture says quite the contrary:

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

I say:

NO you totally misunderstand the meaning of rest in Christ,and you make the seventh day sabbath a "work"

Galatians 4:9&10:

" But now that you have come to know God, or rather be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."

Colossians 2:16&17:

"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day, things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

OntheDL said:

The dietary laws are for our health.

1 Cor 6
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

The original diet was the vegetarian diet. And it shall be our diet in the new heaven and new earth.

I say:

Your church makes it a moral obligation to abstain from eating certain meats, which was clearly done away with;

Colossians 2:16&17:

"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day, things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Acts 15:5, 15:19&20:

" But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

The Apostle James replies:

" Therefore it is my judgement that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood."

Romans 14:1&2:

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for passing judgment on his opinions. One man has the faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

1 Tim. 4:1-4 " But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude."

If vegetarianism helps to perfect us (which EGW taught) then Christ would not have been a meat eater (which he was)

OntheDL said:

Why only new testament? The bible is not made up of both the new and old testaments? Out of 7900+ NT verses, there are 2500 citations of the OT verses. 1/3 of Revelation verses are quotes of the OT.

I say:

True enough, but you need to interpret how to apply the truths of the Old Covenant through the lens of the New Covenant, which SDA does not understand. SDA is the exact same heresy which Paul was refuting in the book of Galatians.

2cents · Apr 2, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
Vegetarianism is not something Paul endorsed but neither did he believe the strong believer should be a stumbling block to those that are weak in the faith, those who abstain from flesh foods as is the case with most Adventist "are weak in the faith."

quote]

Thats because they are so strong on the "Law".

2cents · Apr 2, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
It doesnt have to be proven by the New Covenant.. It is not proven by the Old nor the New, the Old is not a different gospel then the New it is one and the same. The Investigative Judgement is not biblical, the only support you can find for that doctrine is in Edison vision, Crosier & Ellen Whites writings.

100% correct, the investigative judgment is not biblical, it is in fact heretical.

But why did it come about? Because EGW and the Millerite movement, after twice being wrong about the second coming could not just admit they were wrong and repent of the errors of their ways, had to fabricate the investigative judgment to save face.

But alas, error begets error and then comes the Judaising heresies of Seventh Day Sabbath worship and a re-institution of levitical food laws.

woobadooba · Apr 3, 2006

2cents said:
100% correct, the investigative judgment is not biblical, it is in fact heretical.

Then you disagree with Peter who said, "For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1Pt. 4:17

Notice the word "begins" in relation to the word "judgment". What else could Peter be talking about here but the investigative phase of God's judgment? And also notice how it "begins" after the cross; meaning, it didn't end at the cross!

Now then, we can clearly see that the investigative judgment is not heretical. However, I, even though I am an SDA, do not agree with the idea that the investigative judgment began in 1844. To say that it did, is to deny the words of Peter.

Does this mean what happened in 1844 had nothing to do with the 2300 day prophecy found in Daniel? I don't believe so. But what didn't happen was the investigative judgment, since that began long before that time.

Unfortunately, the SDA church, in general, does not accept this. But perhaps one day those who don't agree with it will see that it really isn't reasonable to believe anything else but what is clearly spelled out in the scriptures.

Cliff2 · Apr 3, 2006

2cents said:
100% correct, the investigative judgment is not biblical, it is in fact heretical.

But why did it come about? Because EGW and the Millerite movement, after twice being wrong about the second coming could not just admit they were wrong and repent of the errors of their ways, had to fabricate the investigative judgment to save face.

But alas, error begets error and then comes the Judaising heresies of Seventh Day Sabbath worship and a re-institution of levitical food laws.

If what you say is right then tell me when do you think the judgement will take place.

YeshuamySalvation · Apr 3, 2006

But why did it come about? Because EGW and the Millerite movement, after twice being wrong about the second coming could not just admit they were wrong and repent of the errors of their ways, had to fabricate the investigative judgment to save face.

I agree 100%..

But alas, error begets error and then comes the Judaising heresies of Seventh Day Sabbath worship and a re-institution of levitical food laws.

Yeshua My Salvation > The Shabbat is not a Jewish heresie and nethier is kosher, now how most Adventist attach this to there salvation is anti biblical and at best legalistic. Remember that G-d's law is his very word, the problem is not the law but rather the perversion of the law... Think about it, anyone can pervert G-d's law.. What i believe Adventist have done is pervert the law by making it a burden rather then the TORAH of Liberty as James explains.. Furthermore, most Adventists understanding of justification by faith is perverted, they believe that Yeshua righteousness is imparted not imputed as scripture teaches... The Traditional Adventist understanding of salvation, is a faith + works = Salvation concept. I agree with you it is legalistic.

Yeshua My Salvation > Before Traditional Adventist start jumping on me for my statement that Adventist don't believe that Yeshua righteousness is imputed, i want to clarify that there belife is that it's imparted to us santification is the other part of the deal..

Thats because they are so strong on the "Law".

Yeshua My Salvation > I disagree, i believe most of them are "indeed strong yes" 'in perverting it.' Moreover, scripture does not teach as Ellen White taught that we are saved by preformance.. Our salvation does not depend on how good we are, that is the mistake that Traditional Adventism has promoted throughout the years..They do believe that one has to be found worthy of meriting eternal life based on how well he or she preforms.. Ellen G.W condemned those that believed in there hearts that they were saved by saying that no sanctified tongue would be found uttering such words "as i am saved".. The Traditional Adventist view of salvation is that a person must trust Yeshua for past sins and at the same time develop his own righteousness by a strict and literal adherence of the law in order to be found worthy of eternal life..

Strong's
le·gal·ism (l¶“g…-l¹z”…m) n. 1. Strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality. 2. A legal word, expression, or rule. --le“gal·ist n. --le”gal·is“tic adj. --le”gal·is“ti·cal·ly adv.

MidnightCry · Apr 3, 2006

What is so wrong with keeping God's Law?

We know that works cannot save us, that keeping the letter of the law will not save anyone. It is not a matter of being legalistic.

It is a matter of love and obedience. We love God, thus we show our love by keeping His Laws. They are written in our mind and heart.

Jesus said, If you love me, keep my commandments.

What exactly is so wrong with that?

midnightcry

YeshuamySalvation · Apr 3, 2006

midnightcry said:
What is so wrong with keeping God's Law?

I don't have a problem with keeping G-d's law as far it's observed the biblical way in the spirit and not by the letter which kills.. When the law is taught as most Adventist do as a means of obtaining righteousness to be found worthy at the end and /or as the bases of a believers acceptance by G-d it becomes legalistic in the simplest form so i do agree with 2Cents that this is exactly what Paul was preaching against in the epistals.

We know that works cannot save us, that keeping the letter of the law will not save anyone. It is not a matter of being legalistic.

Well perhaps right now you don't see it since you just recently got baptised as an Adventist.

It is a matter of love and obedience. We love God, thus we show our love by keeping His Laws. They are written in our mind and heart.

But it will not help the individual if he remains in stubborn legalism. Plus we love him because he first loved us, we don't chose to love G-d, he choses us to love him.. No one choses G-d.. G-d chosed us before the foundation of the world.

Jesus said, If you love me, keep my commandments.

What exactly is so wrong with that?

Again the problem is not keeping the Comandments, we know we should keep them not so one day we may be worthy, but because we already are worthy be accepting the one and only work that can save us that is to believe in the one G-d has sent. John 6: 28 - 29.

YeshuamySalvation · Apr 3, 2006

ooops double....

Jesus Is Real · Apr 13, 2006

midnightcry said:
I recently joined the SDA Church. I am learning alot and spend alot of time reading and studying the Bible.

It seems to me the SDA Church has alot of truth. They follow the Bible closer than any other denomination. They present scripture in a way that is clear and easy to understand.

My question is: Why is it that more people do not see these truths? (Such as the Sabbath, soul sleep, The Law of God being eternal, to name a few.) Is it because people do not study the Bible for themselves? Is it because many Christians are deceived? Is it because people are stubborn and do not want to change? Is the church asleep?

I do not understand why more people are not part of the SDA Church.

In Christ,
midnightcry

midnightcry,

No offence given to you at all....please heart my heart.

But (SDA) is just a Structure of a lot of the Light of God. Because JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS ALL THE LIGHT......as you have always known. And He'll take us through His Whole Word which is get us right back to Jesus Christ every time!

When we are keeping Jesus as Lord we don't need to follow men anymore, who may even have a good part of the Bible. But most won't take you into Christ through His Word that tells Flesh to die. This is what's lacking in the Body of Christ........myself as well.....didn't like to die for Christ when it came to my own anger, pride, unforgiveness and the like.

See:

I use to be Calvinist.......I made it about them.
I use to be many things...I made it about them as well.
And God had my number,.....*chuckle.....He sure did!

Please, don't make it about SDA,...for God is a Jealous God. In other words,.....God doesn't want us to make His Word about anything except what it's pointing to: JESUS CHRIST!!! Tis the Season, right?

I do understand about the Seveneth Day Sabbath,.......but we don't have to be anything to get to God,...Christ will perform His Word in us. See,....when you have to be something (Calvinist, or what ever),.......we've not repented from that (to be something.) Our Ancester have pretty much followed men........and we have been their children....and I alone can admit it about my own heart to say this: I was following after the Idol's of my past teachers and fathers. And so we wonder why God has to bring swift chastisments to his People - Judgment must first come to the House of God right? He's being a Father unto us when He does.

,....so and still midnightcry I can say the same things you just said in your first post.........but when I do I have made my Structure (SDA,....CALVINIST,....LUTHREAN,...MESSIANIC....or what ever) above Christ. I truly, in all humility, had to admit this to myself, as the Holy Spirit, gently and little by little showed things that weren't right about my heart as I slightly elevated The CALVINIST doctrine above my Lord Jesus Christ. It was hard to hear this from the Holy Spirit because I loved Jesus so much.......but I allowed things to capture my heart you see?
And God doesn't want that,.....He wants to Make Us One in Him to be only one thing: A Family with eyes only for Jesus who died for us Forgiving us for our Sins. It's a very precious Story the Gospel is,....as you have always known it to be.

Anyway.....
But why did God have to show me these things? Because it was an enemy on my heart-land. He's the Shepherd out in His field and He watching as a good shepherd does! Just like a good gardener does as well.

It's just like how God had to show Israel when they entered the Promised Land. They were to remove the enemies from off the land, as ONLY He brought them before them to utterly destroy, and then to remove the idols of these nations, the images, and the graven images and even the groves (trees) from the land. So that in time the Promised Land could have Rest. By which The Lord could then place His Name in it: His Nature and Character in it.

Does that sound like our Sanctification? It sure does~ Doesn't it?

(~in short~)
Peace,
connie

4God · Apr 22, 2006

midnightcry said:
I recently joined the SDA Church. I am learning alot and spend alot of time reading and studying the Bible.

It seems to me the SDA Church has alot of truth. They follow the Bible closer than any other denomination. They present scripture in a way that is clear and easy to understand.

My question is: Why is it that more people do not see these truths? (Such as the Sabbath, soul sleep, The Law of God being eternal, to name a few.) Is it because people do not study the Bible for themselves? Is it because many Christians are deceived? Is it because people are stubborn and do not want to change? Is the church asleep?

I do not understand why more people are not part of the SDA Church.

In Christ,
midnightcry

Midnight... is very sad, but a reality, and in my opinion, the reason is that they don't want to keep the commandments of God that make them the way they are! read this verse
Matthew 24:12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Did you notice "will GROW cold" in another words slowly they depart from God, and is only Him that give us wisdom, and that is exactly what the devil wants, make them think that they are doing something good for God while they are braking His law!
That is why the scriptures says:

Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

christianmomof3 · Apr 22, 2006

Can I ask some questions? I am not SDA - I meet with a local church in the Lord's Recovery, but I am curious about some things. I read some books years ago by a doctor - I think Ben Carson - Healing Hands may have been one of them - I think he is SDA and I was impressed by his faith that showed in the books.
So, questions - What is soul sleep?
What is the Law of God being eternal?

Last night a brother shared a really neat thing about the sabbath with us. I am sure I cannot retell it the exact way he did, but I hope I understood it well enough to share some of it at least. He said that the principal of the sabbath is that God works first, then rests, but man rests first, then works. God created everything and then rested. Man was created at the end of the last day of God's work, and he shared in God's rest the next day. We must rest in God first before working. He also shared that we rest, then work, then the Lord will stop our work and we will have to rest again. We may wonder why we had to stop, but it is so that we can wait upon the Lord and be filled with more of His life before we can begin working again.

Thank you,
In Christ, Dana

woobadooba · Apr 23, 2006

christianmomof3 said:
Can I ask some questions? I am not SDA - I meet with a local church in the Lord's Recovery, but I am curious about some things. I read some books years ago by a doctor - I think Ben Carson - Healing Hands may have been one of them - I think he is SDA and I was impressed by his faith that showed in the books.
So, questions - What is soul sleep?
What is the Law of God being eternal?

Last night a brother shared a really neat thing about the sabbath with us. I am sure I cannot retell it the exact way he did, but I hope I understood it well enough to share some of it at least. He said that the principal of the sabbath is that God works first, then rests, but man rests first, then works. God created everything and then rested. Man was created at the end of the last day of God's work, and he shared in God's rest the next day. We must rest in God first before working. He also shared that we rest, then work, then the Lord will stop our work and we will have to rest again. We may wonder why we had to stop, but it is so that we can wait upon the Lord and be filled with more of His life before we can begin working again.

Thank you,
In Christ, Dana

Welcome to our forum.

You might find the following links to be helpful in answering your questions.

Concerning the state of the dead:

http://amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=645

http://amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=643

Concerning the law:

http://amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=648

Cliff2 · Apr 23, 2006

christianmomof3 said:
Can I ask some questions? I am not SDA - I meet with a local church in the Lord's Recovery, but I am curious about some things. I read some books years ago by a doctor - I think Ben Carson - Healing Hands may have been one of them - I think he is SDA and I was impressed by his faith that showed in the books.
So, questions - What is soul sleep?
What is the Law of God being eternal?

Last night a brother shared a really neat thing about the sabbath with us. I am sure I cannot retell it the exact way he did, but I hope I understood it well enough to share some of it at least. He said that the principal of the sabbath is that God works first, then rests, but man rests first, then works. God created everything and then rested. Man was created at the end of the last day of God's work, and he shared in God's rest the next day. We must rest in God first before working. He also shared that we rest, then work, then the Lord will stop our work and we will have to rest again. We may wonder why we had to stop, but it is so that we can wait upon the Lord and be filled with more of His life before we can begin working again.

Thank you,
In Christ, Dana

Thanks for sharing that with us.

I have read a few books by Ben Carson, a truly amazing medical professional. He is an Adventist with a fantastic story to tell.

Your other questions look as though they have been dealt with.

If you need anymore info, just ask.

Blessings

christianmomof3 · Apr 23, 2006

woobadooba said:
Welcome to our forum.

You might find the following links to be helpful in answering your questions.

Concerning the state of the dead:

http://amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=645

http://amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=643

Concerning the law:

http://amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=648

Thank you - I looked at those articles, but they are kind of long and small print and I can't read something that long and small on the computer. I don't think I can print those because it says to purchase them.
Can you summarize it briefly and if I have questions I can look back at those documents or just ask a few questions?

I am still studying the whole what happens after we die issue. It is my understanding that man is made in 3 parts - body, soul and spirit. The body is the physical body, the soul is mind, emotion and will, and the spirit is the part of us made to contact God and contain His life. As far as the Lazarus thing - it seems that eveyone goes to Hades when they die - they are either in the pleasant part also called Paradise, which is where Lazarus was, if we are saved we are there or in the unpleasant part where the rich man was - the unsaved go there. I think, we are there until the Lord returns. Is that what ya'll mean by soul sleep? Then at the Lord's return is a jugement and we will either be part of the millenial kingdom with the Lord if we are mature in Christ or we will be tried so as through fire and suffer an educating maturing time that will be not pleasant. Either way, all those who are saved will be in the New Jerusalem when the heavens come down to the earth after the millenial kingdom.
I still need to study this issue more - I have been avoiding it because it is confusing to me, but I am hoping to learn more.

As far as the law thing, I had no idea what that link was about - can that be summarized in a sentence or two also?

Thank you, Dana

woobadooba · Apr 23, 2006

christianmomof3 said:
Thank you - I looked at those articles, but they are kind of long and small print and I can't read something that long and small on the computer. I don't think I can print those because it says to purchase them.
Can you summarize it briefly and if I have questions I can look back at those documents or just ask a few questions?

I am still studying the whole what happens after we die issue. It is my understanding that man is made in 3 parts - body, soul and spirit. The body is the physical body, the soul is mind, emotion and will, and the spirit is the part of us made to contact God and contain His life. As far as the Lazarus thing - it seems that eveyone goes to Hades when they die - they are either in the pleasant part also called Paradise, which is where Lazarus was, if we are saved we are there or in the unpleasant part where the rich man was - the unsaved go there. I think, we are there until the Lord returns. Is that what ya'll mean by soul sleep? Then at the Lord's return is a jugement and we will either be part of the millenial kingdom with the Lord if we are mature in Christ or we will be tried so as through fire and suffer an educating maturing time that will be not pleasant. Either way, all those who are saved will be in the New Jerusalem when the heavens come down to the earth after the millenial kingdom.
I still need to study this issue more - I have been avoiding it because it is confusing to me, but I am hoping to learn more.

As far as the law thing, I had no idea what that link was about - can that be summarized in a sentence or two also?

Thank you, Dana

I'm not so sure it can be summed up so easily.

But concerning the living soul, the Bible teaches us that we are not immortal, but that we are mortal, and are therefore subject to death.

This is why Paul had said that we ought to seek immortality.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom. 2:7

If we were already immortal there would be no sense in seeking for immortality.

Also, you will notice that the Bible teaches that you don't have a soul, but that you are a soul. In fact, Gen. 2:7 makes this quite clear.

Notice the wording taken from the KJV:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

You see, prior to God breathing the breath of life into man, he was just a lifeless soul. But when God gave him the breath of life he became a living soul. In other words, if you look in the mirror you will be looking at a living soul.

But what then does it mean when the Bible says:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Eccl. 12:7

Notice the close connection of the wording in Eccl. 12:7 and Gen. 2:7.

Both of them speak of dust, but one uses the term "breath" and the other uses the term "spirit".

These both mean the same thing. Gen. 2:7 states that after God formed man from the dust of the earth He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and then the man became a living soul.

But then Eccl. 12:7 states that after the spirit returns to God who gave it, the lifeless soul will return to the dust.

Now I want to throw in another verse to bring this connection into perspective.

Job said, "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils" Job 27:3

OK, what was it that God breathed into the nostrils of man that enabled him to become a living soul? The breath of life. And what was it that returned to God and resulted in man becoming lifeless? The spirit.

And according to Job, what was the location of the spirit? His nostrils. In other words, it was the channel through which he breathed.

So then, the terms "spirit" and "breath" mean the same thing here. In other words, it is the spirit/breath of God that enables you to live; but without it you will surely die.

So then, you are a soul. And the breath/spirit of God is what animates you to make you a living soul.

Does this make sense?

Before we move on I want to make sure we can come to an agreement on this.

christianmomof3 · Apr 23, 2006

Actually, I am not sure that I understand that.
It is my understanding that man has a body, soul, and spirit. I Thes. 5:23 refers to all 3 "And may your spirit and soul and body be preserved, complete without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Also, Zechariah 12:1 shows that the spirit of man is as important as the heavens and the earth "...Thus declares Jehovah who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him."

I do understand that our soul is our mind, emotion, and will, therefore it is our being with which we contact the world - it is our self. But we also have a human spirit, which is the part of us that is made to contact God - John 4:24 - God is Spirit, those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit. Our human spirit is the part of us that God comes into when we are born again - His Spirit enlivens our human spirit. Before we are born again, God does not dwell in our human spirit. He may visit there - to speak to us through our conscience, which is part of our spirit, and he spoke through the prophets in the old testament, but His Spirit came upon them and then left - He did not dwell there. Once we are born again, His Spirit dwells in our spirit and the more we turn to our spirit and exercise our spirit to contact the Lord and the more we pray and read the Bible, the more His Spirit grows in our spirit.

So this part

So then, you are a soul. And the breath/spirit of God is what animates you to make you a living soul.

is confusing me a bit. Because to my understanding, the Spirit of God does not dwell in us until we are born again. This is what regeneration is. Before being regenerated, we are essentially dead in spirit. That is why people all long for God. Until we are born again with His Spirit in our spirit, we have an empty place within us - our human spirit is empty, and we try to fill it with all kinds of things, education, entertainment, food, drugs, sex, athletics, trying to be a good person, whatever, but nothing satisfies us because only God can satisfy us. But that is the human spirit that I am referring to, not the soul, although the soul is closely connected to the spirit and as God grows in us He can spread from our spirit to our soul.
I guess in my church we focus on the spirit because that is where the Lord is, and not on the soul because the soul is our mind, emotion and will and it is corrupted and deteriorating, but it can be renewed from the Lord spreading from our spirit to our soul.
So, I don't know if I have the same concept of soul as you do. Do I?

woobadooba · Apr 23, 2006

christianmomof3 said:
Actually, I am not sure that I understand that. It is my understanding that man has a body, soul, and spirit. I Thes. 5:23 refers to all 3 "And may your spirit and soul and body be preserved, complete without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

You raise a good point here. However, in speaking of "spirit, soul, and body", the context of the passage suggests that the totality of our being is to be completely devoted to God--sanctified.

In other words, the message that Paul endeavored to convey in this passage is not that the "spirit, soul, and body" are three separate entities, but that the whole life itself must be placed in complete submission to God, thus being completely sanctified.

You see, as I had mentioned already, Gen. 2:7 makes it clear that the man did not become a living soul until God breathed the breath of life into him. So what would that have made him if God didn't breathe the breath of life into him? Certainly not a living soul, but just quite simply a soul. So you don't have a soul, you are a soul, and a living one nonetheless. So the soul, in other words, is the actual body. Like I said in my other post, if you look into the mirror you will see a living soul.

But what about the term "spirit"? Well, sometimes "spirit" refers to the very breath of our being which animates us, or enables us to live. But then in other places it can refer to the seat of ones emotions. In this case--1Thess. 5:23, I believe it is referring to the seat of ones emotions. In other words, your feelings, or conscience if you will.

Nevertheless, in Eccles. 12:7, the "spirit", according to the context and the original language, is the breath of life which animates the soul, thus rendering it to be a living soul. Remember, the key here is that in Gen. 2:7 the man became a living soul when God gave him the breath of life. But in Eccles. 12:7, when the man dies, the breath of life will return to God who gave it, thus rendering the soul to be lifeless. You see, it's not some living entity that returns to God, but just simply the animating element that gives us all life--the breath of God--which returns to God.

So you can see with these two passages that "spirit" can have two different meanings, either our actual breath, or the seat of our emotions. But it never refers to some separate entity that can live outside of the body.

Does this make sense?

But we also have a human spirit, which is the part of us that is made to contact God - John 4:24 - God is Spirit, those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit.

In this passage Jesus did not mean that we have a spirit that can live outside of the body. Rather, what Jesus was referring to here was that if we are to worship God, it must be something more than just a physical act. We must worship Him because we really love Him.

In other words, we must allow Him to take the seat of our emotions so to speak, thus worshipping Him with every aspect of our being, which means it doesn't matter where we go, we can worship Him anywhere. And this is the point that Jesus was trying to disclose to the woman at the well who thought that God could only be worshipped in certain places. Jesus was trying to tell her that the act of worship is not merely a physical thing, but it is also an emotional state of being.

You see, some people just go through the motions of worship, but they really aren't worshipping God at all, because they haven't allowed Him to take the seat of their emotions. But God wants more than our sacrifices. He wants our love.

If you read the chapter with this thought in mind it will make more sense.

the Spirit of God does not dwell in us until we are born again. This is what regeneration is.

Correct, but the spirit that you are referring to here is the Holy Spirit (God), not the seat of our emotions.

Again, the verses that I gave you earlier which spoke of the "spirit", disclose it as that which refers to the breath of life, not the Holy Spirit, or some separate entity that can live outside of the body.

I guess I didn't explain it very well, and that is why you got confused.

Sophia7 · Apr 23, 2006

christianmomof3 said:
Actually, I am not sure that I understand that.
It is my understanding that man has a body, soul, and spirit. I Thes. 5:23 refers to all 3 "And may your spirit and soul and body be preserved, complete without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Also, Zechariah 12:1 shows that the spirit of man is as important as the heavens and the earth "...Thus declares Jehovah who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him."

I do understand that our soul is our mind, emotion, and will, therefore it is our being with which we contact the world - it is our self. But we also have a human spirit, which is the part of us that is made to contact God - John 4:24 - God is Spirit, those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit. Our human spirit is the part of us that God comes into when we are born again - His Spirit enlivens our human spirit. Before we are born again, God does not dwell in our human spirit. He may visit there - to speak to us through our conscience, which is part of our spirit, and he spoke through the prophets in the old testament, but His Spirit came upon them and then left - He did not dwell there. Once we are born again, His Spirit dwells in our spirit and the more we turn to our spirit and exercise our spirit to contact the Lord and the more we pray and read the Bible, the more His Spirit grows in our spirit.

So this part is confusing me a bit. Because to my understanding, the Spirit of God does not dwell in us until we are born again. This is what regeneration is. Before being regenerated, we are essentially dead in spirit. That is why people all long for God. Until we are born again with His Spirit in our spirit, we have an empty place within us - our human spirit is empty, and we try to fill it with all kinds of things, education, entertainment, food, drugs, sex, athletics, trying to be a good person, whatever, but nothing satisfies us because only God can satisfy us. But that is the human spirit that I am referring to, not the soul, although the soul is closely connected to the spirit and as God grows in us He can spread from our spirit to our soul.
I guess in my church we focus on the spirit because that is where the Lord is, and not on the soul because the soul is our mind, emotion and will and it is corrupted and deteriorating, but it can be renewed from the Lord spreading from our spirit to our soul.
So, I don't know if I have the same concept of soul as you do. Do I?

We do not believe that the soul is a separate part of a person, able to survive after death. We believe that our whole being ceases to exist at death and that we are unconcious of everything until Jesus comes to resurrect us and take us to heaven. We will not gain immortality until then.

Immortality is not an innate characteristic of humanity but a gift from God--a gift that Adam and Eve forfeited when they sinned. Notice what the Bible says about one of the consequences of their sin:

Genesis 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Also, the Bible tells us when we will be given immortality:

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

55 "Where, O death, is your victory?

Where, O death, is your sting?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bible says in 1 Thessalonians 4 that when Jesus comes again, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the living will be caught up to meet Christ with them in the air.

You can read more extensive biblical evidence here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2196368-the-bible-doctrine-concerning-death.html

When people refer to the concept of "soul sleep," they generally mean the idea that people's souls do not live on after death. However, the term fails to adequately reflect our views on this because we do not believe that we have souls that are "sleeping" but that we cannot be separated into different parts, one of which remains in the grave when we die and the rest unable to die and either going to heaven or hell. When the Bible talks about our body, soul, spirit, mind, etc., it is not talking about separate, independent parts but rather our whole beings. For example, Jesus said the following in Matthew 22:37-40:

" `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

What Jesus meant was that we should love the Lord with our whole selves--our thoughts, emotions, bodies, everything. Likewise, the text that you quoted from 1 Thessalonians 5 refers to every part of us, but it is not a theological statement proving that we have immortal souls. It is simply a prayer that we may remain pure in every aspect of our beings until Jesus comes. It is not just the spirit that reaches out to God. When we become Christians, we offer all of ourselves to Him as living sacrifices:

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

When we offer ourselves to God and live by His Spirit, He changes us completely--in heart, mind, and body--to live for Him. He does not dwell in only one part of us, and He has not made that one part imperishable while the rest is perishable. Rather, as 1 Corinthians 15 says, we will put on immortality only when Jesus comes. The same chapter says that His resurrection guarantees our resurrection when He comes again (verses 20-26). Ephesians 1:13-14 also talks about the promise of eternal life:

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit living in us gives us assurance of our salvation, but we have yet to receive the fulfillment of the promise of immortality; we have yet to be granted access to the tree of life. For now, we remain mortal, subject to death--temporarily--but when Jesus comes, our whole beings, including our bodies, will be made incorruptible.

This is a complex issue and a difficult one to summarize in as few words as you might wish for. I highly recommend that you read the biblical evidence in the thread that I linked to above because it goes through most of the texts that support our view as well as those that would seem problematic for our position.

I would also suggest that you go to the following site and check out the lesson called "The Wich of Endor." It is very readable, and you can print out the written lesson for free, or you can watch a video or listen to the audio.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp

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