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Question dealing with the death of Jesus

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Horse Luver

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OK, hope this doesn't sound shallow, but I'm a little mixed up on something. In one chapter of the Bible, Jesus says on the cross to the man dying next to him that he will "see you today in paradise". Well, in another chapter it says Jesus went to hell for three days. If he went to hell, how could he see him in heaven? Does he mean he'll see Jesus as God? Just a little confused:confused: .....please explain.
 

mythbuster

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Definitions. Straight from the Bible, no twists, no interpretations, nor traditions.

Hades ( Hell in the King James Version)
This is where Jesus went when he died. He did not go to heaven. He died, went to Hades, then He resurrected and went to the Father. In Luke we see that in death,
Hades has two parts. One part is called paradise, also known as Abraham's bosom. That is why the Lord said, "today you will be with me in paradise."

The Bible, my favorite book, says, regarding the Lord in Acts 2:27; "Because you will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor permit your holy one to see corruption." Also check out the following verse: Matthew 12:39-40;
For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
This is very clear. I like the term "Death Hotel" for Hades. Oh, and when the Lord left Death Hotel He took the keys. Thank you Lord, you now have the keys to death and of Hades (Rev 1:18)

On the way to the Father in resurrection He stopped and saw Mary at the tomb. She thought He was the gardener (John 20:15) and had done something to the Lord's body, maybe because he had that set of keys.

Anyway the Lord reveals Himself to her and then says to Mary, "don't touch Me for I have not yet ascended to the Father." Isn't this great? Don't you just love the Lord? The GARDENER!

As far as Hades, in Luke 16: 19-31, the Lord Himself describes the two sections of Hades. One side is pleasant and is called " Abraham's bosom," and Abraham is there, now, waiting for the resurrection. Also the apostle Paul went to paradise in Hades and then went up to the third Heaven. (II Cor 12:2) He had quite a journey and transcendent revelations.

peace.
 
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KnightOfChrist

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Did he have a nifty keychain? :D

The thieves will be with Him in Heaven because He is God, the Father, and He is One with the Holy Spirit--therefore, to be in Heaven with God is to be with Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, even if His body is in Hell at the time.

Also, I get the feeling Jesus didn't want to be touched because His human body was rotting. Makes sense, right?
 
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KleinerApfel

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KnightOfChrist said:
The thieves will be with Him in Heaven because He is God, the Father, and He is One with the Holy Spirit--therefore, to be in Heaven with God is to be with Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, even if His body is in Hell at the time.

The Lord Jesus' body was not in Hell, but in Paradise, as mythbuster explains.
This is exactly as the Lord had said would be the case, when addressing the repentant thief on the cross beside Him.



KnightOfChrist said:
Also, I get the feeling Jesus didn't want to be touched because His human body was rotting. Makes sense, right?.

The Lord at the time of the meeting with Mary was already resurrected - ie. in His new, glorified body. Not a rotten corpse!

Blessings, Susana
 
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KnightOfChrist

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I agree with all of that.

But his body still had holes in the hands, and a spear wound in the side. And it was the same as he had been buried in. Where does it say it is a new, glorified body?

And why, then, would he say not to touch him, if he was in a new, clean body?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He's not yet ascended--not yet glorified. Could be Jesus was in a zombie'esque state.
 
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Serapha

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Horse Luver said:
OK, hope this doesn't sound shallow, but I'm a little mixed up on something. In one chapter of the Bible, Jesus says on the cross to the man dying next to him that he will "see you today in paradise". Well, in another chapter it says Jesus went to hell for three days. If he went to hell, how could he see him in heaven? Does he mean he'll see Jesus as God? Just a little confused:confused: .....please explain.
Hi there!

:wave:


For clarity...


If you read about the resurrection, the account in the Bible tells us that the stone was rolled away. If Christ' resurrection was in a glorified body, then there would not have been any need for the stone to be rolled away, for the glorified body could have "poofed" right through the sealed closure.


Christ resurrected in the same physical body that he died in. And He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. When we speak of the atonement of Christ's blood, you have to know that it was the final sacrifice.... but the sacrifice of the blood that made the atonement was not at calvary but the sacrifice was made after the resurrection when Christ ascended to the Father and the physical blood of Christ became the final sacrifice with the blood being place on the mercy seat in heaven.


Then, later in the same day, Jesus met with the disciples and walked through the wall to be in their midst. That was because He was then in a glorified body, having been ascended to the Father and have sacrificed His blood on the mercy seat for the sins of all mankind.


God is constant, He gave the instructions on how sin could be atoned, and it always required a blood sacrifice to be sprinkled on the mercy seat. That type of sacrifice was made in the tabernacle, later in the Temple in Jerusalem, and ultimately the mercy seat of heaven.

~serapha~
 
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KleinerApfel

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Some disturbing and unbiblical assertions have arisen here, namely:

1) That Jesus body was decomposing after He was resurrected.


2) That Jesus ascended into heaven on the day of His resurrection,

in order that the sacrifice be presented,

and to receive a different body.



I disagree, here is my explanation:

The resurrected Jesus suffering from decomposition is not supported by anything the Bible, and is rather a horrible thing to suggest.

When Jesus met with Mary in the garden, He was resurrected in His glorious body:
The Lord had conquered death – why would you expect to see the effects of death in His body?

In Matthew's account of the meeting in the garden, the women take hold of Jesus' feet and worship Him.
There is no uncleanliness.
The instruction is not to cling to Him, rather than not to touch.

Jesus wants Mary to go and tell the others that He is risen, not to stay there hanging onto Him.
In fact there is no need for anyone to hang on to Him fearfully as if He might leave them again, because He will be among His people in the coming weeks, to teach and encourage them further, before His ascension to His Father in heaven.

Just one ascension is mentioned in the Bible.

Jesus’ sacrifice was complete on the cross, where He testified that “IT IS FINISHED.” In other words, nothing else to be done. He did not need to take His blood into heaven after the resurrection.

He walked on earth in His glorified resurrection body for the next forty days, and THEN ascended to the Father in heaven.

He retains the signs of the crucifixion as a lasting symbol of who He is and what He has done, but that is not synonymous with decay.

He could have come forth without the angels rolling away the stone, but one reason it was done this way was to be a sign: “He is not here, He is risen just as He said.”

Blessings, Susana
 
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christian-only

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Breanainn said:
Er, are you saying that Christ actually was holding some keys? :scratch:
KnightOfChrist said:
Did he have a nifty keychain?

Revelation 1:18 (though perhaps not physical keys)

KnightOfChrist said:
The thieves will be with Him in Heaven because He is God, the Father, and He is One with the Holy Spirit--therefore, to be in Heaven with God is to be with Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, even if His body is in Hell at the time.

First of all you are really mixed up on the Trinity. Second, how could anyone's BODY get to hell before the return of Christ? (No BODY will be cast into the Lake of Fire until the Second Coming, Rev 19-20.) When the Bible and the so-called "Apostles' Creed" say that Christ descended to Hades they both mean that His SOUL went to Paradise as in Abraham's bossom. The Bible puts it this way:

(Acts 2:25-31) For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my SOUL in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption...He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his SOUL was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.​

KnightOfChrist said:
Also, I get the feeling Jesus didn't want to be touched because His human body was rotting. Makes sense, right?

Already quoted above, David spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, saying, His SOUL was not left in Hades, neither did his flesh experience corruption. (Acts 2:31) He was not rotting!

The NKJV says "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17) The idea being that Mary was trying to cling to the old earthly relationship but since he was soon to ascend to the Father she must get used to the new relationship. Paul hints at this idea in 2 Cor 5:16 "Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer."
 
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KnightOfChrist

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christian-only said:
Revelation 1:18 (though perhaps not physical keys)



First of all you are really mixed up on the Trinity. Second, how could anyone's BODY get to hell before the return of Christ? (No BODY will be cast into the Lake of Fire until the Second Coming, Rev 19-20.) When the Bible and the so-called "Apostles' Creed" say that Christ descended to Hades they both mean that His SOUL went to Paradise as in Abraham's bossom. The Bible puts it this way:

(Acts 2:25-31) For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my SOUL in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption...He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his SOUL was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.​



Already quoted above, David spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, saying, His SOUL was not left in Hades, neither did his flesh experience corruption. (Acts 2:31) He was not rotting!

The NKJV says "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17) The idea being that Mary was trying to cling to the old earthly relationship but since he was soon to ascend to the Father she must get used to the new relationship. Paul hints at this idea in 2 Cor 5:16 "Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer."

How am I mixed up on the Trinity? It's God, the Father; The Son, who was Jesus of Nazareth, also the christos or Messiah to all people, and the Holy Spirit. I do not understand what there is to be mixed up on. Jesus was God in the flesh; yet God remains omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, and therefore can correspond in prayer with his Son. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (or Ghost) are one and indivisible. The Father is not The Son or the Holy Spirit, but is God; the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, but is God. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, but is God.

It is not His physical body in Hell. But I don't think of a soul as a floating mass of light or anything; for one to actually be "in" Hell, they would have to have a form of some kind. I do admit I phrased it incorrectly.

And now that I read that, I agree he was not rotting. I'm sorry for my misinterpretation, someone told me that a long time ago and I always had that notion as I had never looked into it. :o

"neither his flesh did see corruption; or his body, or his "carcass", as the Syriac version renders it, did not lie so long in the grave as to rot and putrefy." -Gill's notes
 
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christian-only

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The reason I said that you were confused on the Trinity is that you said "He is God, the Father..." as you can see in the quote below. Apparently you meant to say "He is God, with the Father, and He is One with the Holy Spirit."

KnightOfChrist said:
The thieves will be with Him in Heaven because He is God, the Father, and He is One with the Holy Spirit--therefore, to be in Heaven with God is to be with Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, even if His body is in Hell at the time.
 
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KnightOfChrist

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This may help.

"Luk 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him,.... Jesus immediately answered him, though he said not one word to the other that railed at him, or to the multitude that abused him; and promised him more than he asked for, and sooner than he expected.

Verily I say unto thee, today thou shall be with me in paradise; בגן עדן, "in the garden of Eden"; not the earthly paradise, nor the church militant, but the future place, and state of the happiness of the saints, even heaven, and eternal glory, which the Jews frequently call by this name; See Gill on 2Co_12:4 and is so called, because, as the earthly paradise, or Eden's garden, was of God's planting, so is the heavenly glory of his providing and preparing: as that was a place of delight and pleasure, so here are pleasures for evermore; as there was a river in it, which added to the delightfulness and advantage of it, so here runs the river of God's love, the streams whereof make glad the saints now, and will be a broad river to swim in to all eternity: as there were the tree of life, with a variety of other trees, both for delight and profit, so here, besides Christ, the tree of life, which stands in the midst of it, are an innumerable company of angels, and the spirits of just men made perfect: and as the inhabitants of that garden were pure and innocent creatures, so into this paradise shall nothing enter but what is righteous, pure, and holy: and whereas the principal enjoyment of man in Eden was conversation with God, and communion with him, the glory of the heavenly paradise will lie in fellowship with God, Father, Son, and Spirit, in beholding the face of God, and seeing him as he is: and this is the happiness promised by Christ to the penitent and believing thief, that he should be here; and not only so, but with him here, which is far better than being in this world, and than which nothing can be more desirable: and which, when enjoyed, will be for ever: and this he was to enter upon that very day; which shows, that Christ's soul did not descend into hell, locally and literally considered, or into the "Limbus Patrum", the Papists talk of, to fetch the souls of the patriarchs thence, but as soon as it was separated from the body was taken up into heaven; and also, that the souls of departed saints are immediately, upon their separation from the body, there; which was the case of this wonderful instance of the grace of God; and shows the swiftness of the soul, or the velocity of angels in conveying it thither immediately: and this agrees with the sense of the Jews, who say (b), that

"the souls of the fathers, or patriarchs have rest, and in a moment, immediately enter into their separate places, or apartments, and not as the rest of the souls; of whom it is said, all the twelve months the soul ascends and descends, (goes to and fro,) but the souls of the fathers, מיד בהפרדן, "immediately, upon their separation", return to God that gave them.''

Some would remove the stop, and place it after "today", and read the words thus, "I say unto thee today"; as if Christ only signified the time when he said this, and not when the thief should be with him in paradise; which, besides it being senseless, and impertinent, and only contrived to serve an hypothesis, is not agreeably to Christ's usual way of speaking, and contrary to all copies and versions. Moreover, in one of Beza's exemplars it is read, "I say unto thee, οτι σημερον that today thou shalt be with me", &c. and so the Persic and Ethiopic versions seem to read, which destroys this silly criticism. And because this was a matter of great importance, and an instance of amazing grace, that so vile a sinner, one of the chief of sinners, should immediately enter into the kingdom of God, and enjoy uninterrupted, and everlasting communion with him and that it might not be a matter of doubt with him, or others, Christ, who is the "Amen", the faithful witness, and truth itself, prefaces it after this manner: "verily I say unto thee"; it is truth, it may be depended on. This instance of grace stands on record, not to cherish sloth, indolence, security and presumption, but to encourage faith and hope in sensible sinners, in their last moments, and prevent despair. The Papists pretend to know this man's name; they say his name was Disma; and reckon him as a martyr, and have put him in the catalogue of saints, and fixed him on the "twenty fifth" of March.

(The story of the penitent thief has sometimes been considered the most surprising, the most suggestive, the most instructive incident in all the Gospel narrative. ... In the salvation of one of the thieves \@vital\@ \@theology finds one of its finest demonstrations.\@

\@Sacrementalism was refuted,\@ for the thief was saved without recourse to baptism, the Lord's Supper, church, ceremony, or good works.

\@The dogma of purgatory was refuted,\@ for this vile sinner was instantly transformed into a saint and made fit for paradise apart from his personal expiation of a single sin.

\@The teaching of universalism was refuted,\@ for only one was saved of all who might have been saved. Jesus did not say, "Today shall ye be with me in paradise", but "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

\@The notion of soul-sleep was refuted,\@ for the clear implication of the entire incident is that the redeemed thief would be in conscious fellowship with his Saviour in paradise even while his body disintegrated in some grave.

Too, it is doubtful whether any other gospel incident presents the plan of salvation more clearly or simply.--Dr. Charles R. Erdman)

(b) Tzeror Hammor, fol. 58. 4."

Also:

"Luk 23:43 -
Today ... - It is not probable that the dying thief expected that his prayer would be so soon answered. It is rather to be supposed that he looked to some “future” period when the Messiah would rise or would return; but Jesus told him that his prayer would be answered that very day, implying, evidently, that it would be “immediately” at death. This is the more remarkable, as those who were crucified commonly lingered for several days on the cross before they died; but Jesus foresaw that measures would be taken to “hasten” their death, and assured him that “that” day he should receive an answer to his prayer and be with him in his kingdom.
Paradise - This is a word of “Persian” origin, and means “a garden,” particularly a garden of pleasure, filled with trees, and shrubs, and fountains, and flowers. In hot climates such gardens were especially pleasant, and hence, they were attached to the mansions of the rich and to the palaces of princes. The word came thus to denote any place of happiness, and was used particularly to denote the abodes of the blessed in another world. The Romans spoke of their Elysium, and the Greeks of the gardens of Hesperides, where the trees bore golden fruit. The garden of Eden means, also, the garden of “pleasure,” and in Gen_2:8 the Septuagint renders the word “Eden by Paradise.” Hence, this name in the Scriptures comes to denote the abodes of the blessed in the other world. See the notes at 2Co_12:4. The Jews supposed that the souls of the righteous would be received into such a place, and those of the wicked cast down to Gehenna until the time of the judgment. They had many fables about this state which it is unnecessary to repeat. The plain meaning of the passage is, “Today thou shalt be made happy, or be received to a state of blessedness with me after death.” It is to be remarked that Christ says nothing about the “place where” it should be, nor of the condition of those there, excepting that it is a place of blessedness, and that its happiness is to commence immediately after death (see also Phi_1:23); but from the narrative we may learn:
1. That the soul will exist separately from the body; for, while the thief and the Saviour would be in Paradise, their “bodies” would be on the cross or in the grave.
2. That immediately after death - the same day - the souls of the righteous will be made happy. They will feel that they are secure; they will be received among the just; and they will have the assurance of a glorious immortality.
3. That state will differ from the condition of the wicked. The promise was made to but one on the cross, and there is no evidence whatever that the other entered there. See also the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Luk_16:19-31.
4. It is the chief glory of this state and of heaven to be permitted to see Jesus Christ and to be with him: “Thou shalt be with me.” “I desire to depart and to be with Christ,” Phi_1:23. See also Rev_21:23; Rev_5:9-14."

Those ought to help you. Helped me, too, honestly... :D
 
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christian-only

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Horse Luver said:
Hmmmm......becoming even more confused........

Probably because the question of why Jesus said "don't touch me" was not needed in this thread. Here is the basic overview that I get from my reading of Scripture: When Jesus died, His soul went to Hades (according to Acts 2) which is where all men go when they die, regardless of whether they are righteous or wicked. Now then, in Hades, as we find in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16), there is a Paradise side and a torment side. The righteous go to the Paradise side, Abraham's bossom, and the wicked to the torment side. Jesus told the theif that He would be with Him in Paradise (Luke 23:43), so when they died, Jesus and the thief went to Abraham's bossom. That is, their souls did. Their bodies were still on earth. Jesus' body then was buried, and although dead and buried did not see corruption, as Peter says in Acts 2. But, as Peter says in Acts 2, God did not leave Jesus' soul in Hades but Jesus' soul returned to His body, hence he was resurrected. The thief, however, was still in hades where with all other men he will await the resurrection. Now then, at the resurrection, God will call forth all the dead, and all who are in Hades (Rev 20:13), both in Abraham's bossom and in the torment side, will be rejoined to their bodies. Then, God will judge them, and the righteous will go to heaven, but the wicked will be thrown bodily into the Lake of Fire where they will be tormented forever. Also, Hades and Death themselves will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. (Rev 20:14)
 
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filioLumen

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Hey Topcat,

Read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. The "bosom of Abraham" is paradise (not heaven because Christ hadn't died yet) and the "place of torment" is the regular Hades (Sheol in the OT). That should clear things up for ya!

As for everything else that's been said, i wholeheartedly agree.

God bless you! Maranatha!
Steve
 
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