Question Concerning Wof

[lyonguard]

I am WOF and have been since 1980. I will be very truthful and say that I would not be WOF today if I had not learned from a very wise and incredibly knowledgable teacher who taught his church study, pray and praise. He also taught the church how to flow in the spiritual gifts, but above all, he taught his people how not to be flakey and weird. No screaming in tongues, casting devils out of lawn mowers and stuff like that.

What I have noticed is that people who have stayed with WOF are the ones who had a solid background of teaching based on scripture and not on someone's story, theory, or flowery sermon. Those that did not stay in the Word and continue in prayer and praise and worship did not stay in WOF. Those that were flakey never stayed anywhere for very long.

 

[dkbwarrior]

I got saved in prison, I didn't have a Christian upbringing or history, though I nominally always kinda believed in God, in principle anyway. I memorized alot of scripture before I really started reading christian books, I mean, alot of scripture. When I started reading christian books, I read alot of junk that just didn't line up with what I had been memorizing, but I didn't know enough to really put my finger on what was wrong.

Then, one day, someone gave me a book called The Name Of Jesus, by Kenneth Hagin. By the end of the first chapter I was wide eyed and unable to put the book down. All I could think was, 'This is what I have been reading in the Bible, that no one else seems to really believe'. I just knew it was truth.

The one thing that Kenneth Hagin taught over and over and over from every angle that he could, was that we do not use our experience to interpret the scripture. The Bible is true no matter what we see around us. Let God be true but every man a liar. I am moved not by what I see, not by what I hear, and not by what I feel, I am moved only by what I believe, and I believe the Bible.

I got ahold of all of his books and read every one, several times. I never read anything that I disagreed with. I would talk to people and they would tell me that I was obviously setting him on a pedestal, because how could I agree with everything he said? I started to actually worry about this. I started wondering if mabey I was not being objective. How could it be that I never disagreed with a thing he said, unless I was being decieved?

Now all you WOFers here don't stone me. But I was so glad when he came out with the book The Midas Touch. Because for the first time, he said some things that I actually disagreed with. I disagreed with them the moment I read them, just as I had previously agreed with the things he wrote as soon as I read them. This set my mind at ease, that I was not blindly following someone, but was rightly dividing the Word.

Funny huh? That disagreeing with my favorite teacher actually set my mind at ease? The bottom line is that I disagreed with some things he said in that book because for the first time, he used logic to try to explain why he thought certain scriptures did not mean what they obviously said. Every other book I had ever read by him he had said the scripture meant what it said regardless of whether or not circumstances looked different. And now, he was giving circumstantial reasons from the senses and the world around us to explain why some scriptures could not be literally true. I wasn't buying that, even from him; he had taught me too well.

And that is the characteristic that I think defines true WOF believers. The willingness to believe the truth of the scripture, no matter how much the facts of the world around us try to make it look like a lie.

Let God be true, but every man a liar...

Peace...

 

[lismore]

I think you forgot the middle ground, where people were involved for a significant period of time then got out of it.

I'm interested to see what answers you receive Ben Adam.

For myself I agree with some WOF doctrines, others make me want to jump up and not come down again!

So middle ground is nice!

 

[lismore]

Remember, this is not about whether Wof is right or wrong, but is a question of what common traits you see in people that adhere to Wof?

What I liked about Kenneth Hagin and several WOFers that I have met was that they discerned that things needed to be added to mainstream Christinaity.

Physical healing needs to be taught. Properity needs to be taught. Expecting the supernatural needs to be taught.

The WOF movement has had a big influence to bring these issues back into play in dozens of denominations and fellowships!

However when the WOF movement tries to make a new church of its own, it very oftens seems to float off into outer space and into the loony fringes.

But thats just my perception.

 

[bithiah2]

a lot of people i have met from that belief come across as cold and uncaring. they quote from the Bible a lot, and know what it says. but sometimes they don't seem to care about others, it is just about quoting the word.
not everyone, but a lot. and for me, it is a turn-off.
blessings
bithiah2

 

[lyonguard]

I got saved in prison, I didn't have a Christian upbringing or history, though I nominally always kinda believed in God, in principle anyway. I memorized alot of scripture before I really started reading christian books, I mean, alot of scripture. When I started reading christian books, I read alot of junk that just didn't line up with what I had been memorizing, but I didn't know enough to really put my finger on what was wrong.

Then, one day, someone gave me a book called The Name Of Jesus, by Kenneth Hagin. By the end of the first chapter I was wide eyed and unable to put the book down. All I could think was, 'This is what I have been reading in the Bible, that no one else seems to really believe'. I just knew it was truth.

The one thing that Kenneth Hagin taught over and over and over from every angle that he could, was that we do not use our experience to interpret the scripture. The Bible is true no matter what we see around us. Let God be true but every man a liar. I am moved not by what I see, not by what I hear, and not by what I feel, I am moved only by what I believe, and I believe the Bible.

I got ahold of all of his books and read every one, several times. I never read anything that I disagreed with. I would talk to people and they would tell me that I was obviously setting him on a pedestal, because how could I agree with everything he said? I started to actually worry about this. I started wondering if mabey I was not being objective. How could it be that I never disagreed with a thing he said, unless I was being decieved?

Now all you WOFers here don't stone me. But I was so glad when he came out with the book The Midas Touch. Because for the first time, he said some things that I actually disagreed with. I disagreed with them the moment I read them, just as I had previously agreed with the things he wrote as soon as I read them. This set my mind at ease, that I was not blindly following someone, but was rightly dividing the Word.

Funny huh? That disagreeing with my favorite teacher actually set my mind at ease? The bottom line is that I disagreed with some things he said in that book because for the first time, he used logic to try to explain why he thought certain scriptures did not mean what they obviously said. Every other book I had ever read by him he had said the scripture meant what it said regardless of whether or not circumstances looked different. And now, he was giving circumstantial reasons from the senses and the world around us to explain why some scriptures could not be literally true. I wasn't buying that, even from him; he had taught me too well.

And that is the characteristic that I think defines true WOF believers. The willingness to believe the truth of the scripture, no matter how much the facts of the world around us try to make it look like a lie.

Let God be true, but every man a liar...

Peace...

I'm strong WOF and I have also found certain things that I disagree with Hagin on. The same with Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Bob Yandian, etc. Sometimes I continue to disagree with them and sometimes I learn something that causes me to change my mind and agree with them. We all continue to learn and will not come into full agreement until we get to Heaven where Jesus will set us all straight!

 

[churchlady]

This has been some very interesting reading, folks. Lots of different views here, that's for sure.

Some of you stayed on track by actually answering the OP question, while some seemed to be making up a question of their own.

Bithiah, I apologize for any coldness you've felt from Wofer's. That should not be from those who name the Name of Christ.

Lismore, I particularly liked your take on the fact that Wof added something that was needed, to mainstream Christianity, which is good, but you said that if they have a church of their own, it gets looney.

Well, there are no Wof churches around here, so I've never belonged to one.......so you could be right. I just don't know. But that was an interesting comment and observation.

But the fact is we all need each other. Each stream of ministry brings something to the table which we all need. The Baptists know how to get people saved. I used to be a Baptist. They got me saved. The Catholics know how to excel at charity, etc. Wof knows the revelation of Paul concerning the new man in Christ and the application of that to your life. etc. etc.

Different strengths to share, and different weaknesses to be corrected. Each move of God brings something needed to the Body of Christ, which will bring greater maturity to the whole, if accepted.

I, for one, was attracted to Wof because the church I attended left out the 'power' of God, that I saw all through the Bible. That trait of dissatisfaction with a powerless religion is one I see in my fellow Wof believers.

Another trait I see in people attracted to Wof, is one of believing that God has given to the believer a very active role in working out his own salvation in conjunction with the Holy Spirit. For the Wof believer, 'sovereignty' is a spoke in the wheel but not the hub. Jesus is the hub.

I think one of the key biblical phrases for any Wof believer would be "Christ in me, the hope of Glory"

 

[NorrinRadd]

I think you forgot the middle ground, where people were involved for a significant period of time then got out of it.

Yeah.

 

[Tenebrae]

I asked this on the Wof sub-forum, so I think I'll ask it here, as well.

What do you think causes some people to gravitate to the Wof message and stay with it long term, while others reject it right off the bat, and continue to dislike it?

In other words, what marks the typical Wof adherent? (I'm not talking about those who are on the radical lunatic fringes, but the long-term average Wof believer who practices what they believe.)

I edit this to say that for some of you who have been on this forum for several years, you have had daily contact with Wof adherents on here for that long. So do you see any common denominator in our characteristics?

Why I rejected it was because of the fringe lunatics, and the fact that they couldnt coherantly back up what they believed from the bible

and rather than admit that they didnt know it all, they would resort to character assassination and general stinky rudeness.

I dont give a rip if people dont know it all, however I think it speaks volumes about the quality of a persons argument when they have to resort to personal attacks to substantiate their arguement

 

[dkbwarrior]

Why I rejected it was because of the fringe lunatics, and the fact that they couldnt coherantly back up what they believed from the bible

and rather than admit that they didnt know it all, they would resort to character assassination and general stinky rudeness.

I dont give a rip if people dont know it all, however I think it speaks volumes about the quality of a persons argument when they have to resort to personal attacks to substantiate their arguement

I feel ya there...

I have heard some of my fellow WOF brothers and sisters say things that make me embarassed to listen.

On the other hand, I have endeavored to never use adjectives like heretic, idiot, pathetic, stupid or such to address those that I debate with; yet I have been called all of those names and more right here on these forums.

I don't think either side has the corner on stupidity.

But then again, as I have noted before, if one were to take the time to do a quick search of the first couple of hundred of pages of past threads on this very forum, you will find scores of threads accusing WOF ministers of being heretics and decievers and money grubbers and greedy, etc. etc.

I have yet to see a thread by WOF attacking any non-WOF ministers. But then, mabey I'm just not seeing them, for whatever reason.

Peace...

 

[Tenebrae]

I feel ya there...

I have heard some of my fellow WOF brothers and sisters say things that make me embarassed to listen.

On the other hand, I have endeavored to never use adjectives like heretic, idiot, pathetic, stupid or such to address those that I debate with; yet I have been called all of those names and more right here on these forums.

I don't think either side has the corner on stupidity.

But then again, as I have noted before, if one were to take the time to do a quick search of the first couple of hundred of pages of past threads on this very forum, you will find scores of threads accusing WOF ministers of being heretics and decievers and money grubbers and greedy, etc. etc.

I have yet to see a thread by WOF attacking any non-WOF ministers. But then, mabey I'm just not seeing them, for whatever reason.

Peace...

I see some really awesome people that are a credit to WoF on this forum. People who helped me to realise that just because there are rotton parts of the body, that doesnt make all the body wrong

It kind of saddens me in some respects though, as christians I always thought we were supposed to have a higher standard than the world, yet am starting to see christian ministries that have worse standards of practice and care than the firercly secular organisation I work for. Makes me sad

I'd just settle for being rid of the bitter and twistedness about all that, kind of sucks after a while, .

 

[NorrinRadd]

After pondering the OP for several minutes, I have to say... "I don't know." I've interacted with WoF people online in several different fora for several years. Now, as I indicated earlier in the thread, I don't fall into either of the categories cited in the OP; I eagerly embraced WoF and ran with it for about 8+ years, then dropped it. In terms of the people who resolutely hold onto WoF for years, I almost have to think their brains are literally wired differently -- to the point that it is difficult to even communicate with them in some cases. It actually reminds me of the frustration I as an Arminian have had in dealing with dedicated Calvinists, or even the frustration I as a Christian have had in dealing with atheists.

There just seems to be some unbridgeable gap such that we literally *cannot* see Scripture passages in the same way, *cannot* agree on meaning of words, and do not even see reality in the same way.

 

[pdudgeon]

After pondering the OP for several minutes, I have to say... "I don't know." I've interacted with WoF people online in several different fora for several years. Now, as I indicated earlier in the thread, I don't fall into either of the categories cited in the OP; I eagerly embraced WoF and ran with it for about 8+ years, then dropped it. In terms of the people who resolutely hold onto WoF for years, I almost have to think their brains are literally wired differently -- to the point that it is difficult to even communicate with them in some cases. It actually reminds me of the frustration I as an Arminian have had in dealing with dedicated Calvinists, or even the frustration I as a Christian have had in dealing with atheists.

There just seems to be some unbridgeable gap such that we literally *cannot* see Scripture passages in the same way, *cannot* agree on meaning of words, and do not even see reality in the same way.

i think you've got something there.

there is a related thread here http://christianforums.com/t5850535-word-of-faith.html
which makes for some intresting reading.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I forgot to note my observations about my WoF acquaintances IRL.

Several left their WoF churches after many years; they may or may not have left their WoF teachings also. Some who continue to hold to WoF doctrines are the sort who are diligent about *reading* their Bibles, but really do not in any way *study* them. They don't even seem to grasp such relatively basic principles as looking at context, instead of just viewing Scripture as a collection of isolated proof-texts.

Others are sort of loosely WoF, think it's no big deal either way, and continue to attend WoF churches because they've grown comfortable there.

And of course some are dedicated WoFfers, who do "study" Scripture, and yet, incomprehensibly to me, still hold WoF beliefs.

 

[Waddell]

I forgot to note my observations about my WoF acquaintances IRL.

Several left their WoF churches after many years; they may or may not have left their WoF teachings also. Some who continue to hold to WoF doctrines are the sort who are diligent about *reading* their Bibles, but really do not in any way *study* them. They don't even seem to grasp such relatively basic principles as looking at context, instead of just viewing Scripture as a collection of isolated proof-texts.

Others are sort of loosely WoF, think it's no big deal either way, and continue to attend WoF churches because they've grown comfortable there.

And of course some are dedicated WoFfers, who do "study" Scripture, and yet, incomprehensibly to me, still hold WoF beliefs.

As if even one person cared about your opinion. Amazing. If I'm in a bind, no way am I calling on you or yours, I'm calling the absolute most faithful believer I can find. Probably Dids.

If I find myself in a pinch, I want somebody that knows the heart of God to be praying for me.

 

[churchlady]

I forgot to note my observations about my WoF acquaintances IRL.

Several left their WoF churches after many years; they may or may not have left their WoF teachings also. Some who continue to hold to WoF doctrines are the sort who are diligent about *reading* their Bibles, but really do not in any way *study* them. They don't even seem to grasp such relatively basic principles as looking at context, instead of just viewing Scripture as a collection of isolated proof-texts.

Others are sort of loosely WoF, think it's no big deal either way, and continue to attend WoF churches because they've grown comfortable there.

And of course some are dedicated WoFfers, who do "study" Scripture, and yet, incomprehensibly to me, still hold WoF beliefs.

As if even one person cared about your opinion. Amazing. If I'm in a bind, no way am I calling on you or yours, I'm calling the absolute most faithful believer I can find. Probably Dids.

If I find myself in a pinch, I want somebody that knows the heart of God to be praying for me.

Waddell, actually Norrin Radd was trying to answer the OP which asked what he sees as the traits of people who adhere to Wof theology.

This thread is not about the rightness or wrongness of Wof theology.

 

[Waddell]

Waddell, actually Norrin Radd was trying to answer the OP which asked what he sees as the traits of people who adhere to Wof theology.

This thread is not about the rightness or wrongness of Wof theology.

I did it again then didn't I?!!! I'm sorry Churchlady. I got carried away. I truely apologize.

 

[churchlady]

I did it again then didn't I?!!! I'm sorry Churchlady. I got carried away. I truely apologize.

lol! That's okay.

 

[churchlady]

Initially, Jesus drew large crowds of people who came out either to witness the power of God healing the sick, casting out demons, or to receive of the benefits themselves.

But the crowds begin to dwindle greatly when the message became more serious and required something difficult of them.............to drink His blood and eat His flesh.........etc.

From large admiring crowds, down to just 120 disciples in the upper room, the adherents to His message decreased greatly, while persecution increased from among the religious.

I've seen people come to Wof for the promised benefits,......... but when such things as..... contending for the faith, perseverance, and the requirement of them risking confessing something as fact that wasn't seen (which might make them look foolish), I saw many turn away at that point. The people who tried it and 'couldn't make it work', seemed to be the most angry, in my observation.

I'm sure Abraham took lots and lots of mocking about his name meaning 'father of many nations', when he had zero children.

But he accepted the name change that God gave him (calling those things that aren't as though they were), and the scourn that was sure to go with it, because he believed God above natural circumstances.

I'm sure Noah took lots of kidding, building a huge boat when there was no rain, much less flooding.

This is a trait that I see in Wof people. They will endure the mocking that comes when they tell people they are healed by His stripes, even as the evidence of sickness is out there for all to see. They are willing to live by what they see spiritually as opposed to what their natural eyes point out.

I remember years ago, after having taught a women's bible study on the principles of Wof, running into a lady from those meetings in the grocery store. I had at that time, Corneal Dystropy and was wearing a big 'ole eye patch on my eye, and looked awful. Here I was the teacher who said "God will heal us", looking like somebody punched me in the eye. She looked at me with amazement. It was somewhat embarrassing, but I knew that God had promished healing and I was in the process of strengthening my faith for it, but it was a few weeks later that I saw the miracle take place. Inbetween, I had to be a little embarrassed. A small price indeed to pay for believing God.

 

[Waddell]

When all is said and done, I believe God. That's my nature, that's who I am.