Question Concerning Death in Gen.

[nowsthetime]

hey all! it's been awhile since i've posted on here... but I was having some discussions about theistic evolution and creationism, and one argument that faired pretty well against theistic evolution is the lack of death or the lack of animals killing each other in order to have a reason to evolve....

this goes into why do carnivores have sharper teeth and other arguments.

i, btw, subscribe to neither yec nor te completely... i sort of want to go with TE but i don't know. haha

 

[theFijian]

So, did you have a specific question to ask?

 

[FranciscanJ]

one argument that faired pretty well against theistic evolution is the lack of death or the lack of animals killing each other in order to have a reason to evolve....

this goes into why do carnivores have sharper teeth and other arguments.

Are you saying evolution wasn't necessary because animals didn't kill each other back then, so they had no reason to evolve?

But, the fossil evidence does show plenty of animals with some pretty sharp teeth back then too.

Honestly I haven't the faintest what you're talking about though.

 

[nowsthetime]

Woops.. I'm sorry... I was sitting here researching this stuff for an hour and I had all the ideas in my head and my question seemed to make sense to me at the time... haha. i just got sucked in my readi ng and I forgot no one else was in my head. lol that probably doesnt make sense either

Are you saying evolution wasn't necessary because animals didn't kill each other back then, so they had no reason to evolve?

this is one of the questions... but it seems to me that animals could die before the fall of man...

but does the death that the Lord talks about that when man would surely die if they ate from the tree of life...could that mean possibly a spiritual death?


I've sort of answered my question if animals died before the fall... I'm going to assume yes... Why else would they have reproductive organs... Why would they need food, if there was no death... starvation wouldn't have been an issue...

but yeah.. I've sort of answered my own question... I'm sorry for confusing the heck out of people... haha I have a hard time conveying thoughts I have sometimes.

I'm guessing the biggest criticism of TEs that I get is if death of man didn't happen before the fall, how did we evolve... but a TE would respond with that which the Bible says when man will surely die is concerning a spiritual death? or what... That's my real question.

Genesis 2:15-17
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


Again.. I apologize for having completely no structure. haha

 

[theIdi0t]

Woops.. I'm sorry... I was sitting here researching this stuff for an hour and I had all the ideas in my head and my question seemed to make sense to me at the time... haha. i just got sucked in my readi ng and I forgot no one else was in my head. lol that probably doesnt make sense either

I covered this in a recent post, and yes death in genesis is a spiritual death, and that is what Paul was trying to convey.

Here are two post where I go into this in a bit of detail:

1 Post

2 Post

 

[nowsthetime]

thanks man. there are just a lot of eager young earth creationists around here that are not too shy about saying theistic evolution contradicts the Bible.. some even go as far as saying you aren't truly Christian.

I'm not sure exactly what I believe.. I'm leaning to TE, but I just want to learn and study a lot more so I can maybe stimulate people and possibly make them a little more open minded.

 

[Assyrian]

Hi nowsthetime it good to have you here, welcome.

I think when we try to understand Gen 2:17, it is important to notice that Adam didn't actually die physically the day he ate the fruit. So what ever sort of death is being described here, or however it is described literally or figuratively, it did not mean Adam would die literally and physically on the day he ate the fruit.

 

[FranciscanJ]

I'm guessing the biggest criticism of TEs that I get is if death of man didn't happen before the fall, how did we evolve... but a TE would respond with that which the Bible says when man will surely die is concerning a spiritual death? or what... That's my real question.

It's alright, we all miscommunicate here.

Just to add to the conversation, here's an article that addresses it from the American Scientific Affiliation (TE scientists, mostly).

Did Animals Die Before the Fall?

It's on PDF. The first page addresses your question from the standpoint that even if there was no death before the fall, Adam's sin could still impute death retroactively, just as Christ's righteousness is imputed retroactively.

But the second page is a better argument from a different angle (and one which I agree with): there is no scriptural warrant to believe that it was Adam's sin that caused death in the animal world. Paul never attributes the condition of nature to Adam's sin. It is the result of God's sovereign will for future glory.

Also, long before evolution was discovered, there were plenty of Christians who believed the animals in the garden and on earth lived and died. St. Augustine was one of them. Not that they are always right, but you see, even before evolutionary understanding, such a limited view was not seen as necessary.

Hope that helps.