Question Concerning "all"

[ghs1994]

And this is what you accused a Calvinist of? Are you sure you were talking to the right person? It is context, both immediate and overall, which Calvinists often appeal to to show non-Calvinists that their understanding is inaccurate.

You made a very telling statement earlier when you referred to "the elect theology." You'd have to dispense with Scripture to avoid acknowledging that the Bible teaches election. What you believe about election can be different than what a Calvinst would believe but to refer to it in a way that implies that you disregard election altogether shows that the "face value" of which you speak is sadly unbiblical.

Are you aware that election is taught in the Gospel? I'm not asking what you believe the Bible teaches about election. I'm merely asking if you acknowledge that it is taught.

God bless

Election I believe is solely concerning Israel. I do believe God has set apart a remnant of His chosen people, that is, the nation Israel. Now I know concerning Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile concerning salvation and how it is obtained, but I do believe there is a remnant who will be saved by God's election.

 

[ghs1994]

You cannot simply throw off doctrine and theology and say "I'm going to live by faith" because you won't have the least idea what it means to live by faith without studying God's Word.Jon

I ask you then, were the Gentiles not saved by faith? I know what it means to live by faith, however, I'm not so sure about those who believe they are elect do. Sounds very similiar to the Pharisees who had Abraham as their father and thought they were safe.

 

[Jon_]

Election I believe is solely concerning Israel. I do believe God has set apart a remnant of His chosen people, that is, the nation Israel. Now I know concerning Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile concerning salvation and how it is obtained, but I do believe there is a remnant who will be saved by God's election.

Then you have misunderstood the Gospel. All believers are elect.

(Colossians 3:11, 12 KJV) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
​

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

I ask you then, were the Gentiles not saved by faith?

That's a silly question. I don't see how it pertains to what I said, either. Faith and knowledge are not contradicties, nor even contraries.

I know what it means to live by faith, however, I'm not so sure about those who believe they are elect do.

I cannot attest to the "belief" of another individual. Simply because one believes he or she is elect does not make one so.

Sounds very similiar to the Pharisees who had Abraham as their father and thought they were safe.

How's that?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[ghs1994]

Whether you realize it or not, Christianity is an intellectual religion.

Jon

Christianity is intellecual? Hmmm...sounds like the Greek Paul was speaking of. I do believe there must come a knowledge when it comes to scripture, but study all you want, without spiritual enlightenment, you won't understand a thing. How do you think you understand one word of the bible without spiritual guidance? Intellect in God's Word only comes thru the Spirit's enlightenment. I believe you know that. The main problem I have with Calvanism is it seems to take the Spirit out and base everything on knowledge.

 

[ghs1994]

That's a silly question. I don't see how it pertains to what I said, either. Faith and knowledge are not contradicties, nor even contraries.


I cannot attest to the "belief" of another individual. Simply because one believes he or she is elect does not make one so.


How's that?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Faith is not based on knowledge, if it were, then the Pharisees would not have been condemned for their actions and they would have been saved. Knowing how to be fruitful for Christ and leading a Christ-like existence is based upon knowledge of the scriptures, by which the Holy Spirit leads us.

Concerning the Pharisees saying we have Abraham as their father believed that they were of the promise because they were Jewish and decended from him, thinking they were exempt from wrath thru the promise of election. But unfortunately, Christ knew this was not the case. It was those who had faith who were the seed of Abraham.

 

[Reformationist]

Election I believe is solely concerning Israel. I do believe God has set apart a remnant of His chosen people, that is, the nation Israel. Now I know concerning Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile concerning salvation and how it is obtained, but I do believe there is a remnant who will be saved by God's election.

Then you have misunderstood the Gospel. All believers are elect.

(Colossians 3:11, 12 KJV) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


​

Soli Deo Gloria



Jon

Well, guess that pretty much blows the "Election is solely concerning Israel" idea out of the water.

God bless

 

[Jon_]

Christianity is intellecual? Hmmm...sounds like the Greek Paul was speaking of. I do believe there must come a knowledge when it comes to scripture, but study all you want, without spiritual enlightenment, you won't understand a thing. How do you think you understand one word of the bible without spiritual guidance? Intellect in God's Word only comes thru the Spirit's enlightenment. I believe you know that. The main problem I have with Calvanism is it seems to take the Spirit out and base everything on knowledge.

You really are silly. You have an incredible ability to caricacturize what I say and put words into my mouth. What, are you accusing me of being a Greek philosopher, the kind denounced by Paul? I beg that you understand what you say. Do you even know what "intellectual" means? It means noetic, of or pertaining to the intellect, or mind. Christianity is a religion of the mind, i.e. of the spirit (for our mind and our spirit are one in the same).

(Ephesians 6:12 KJV) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
​

Moreover, Paul, the one and same Apostle that you presume to cite against me clearly makes it known that our faith and battle is intellectual.

(2 Corinthians 10:4, 5 KJV) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
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And Peter, too, talks about knowledge being the essence of our faith.

(2 Peter 1:3 KJV) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
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I think it is funny that you somehow think I am ignoring the doctrine of illumination. As a Reformed believer, I affirm illumination to the fullest extent, beyond even what you can bear. The Spirit's illumination is an extension of God's grace, and he gives it and withholds it according to his sovereign will. Those who are given illumination understand the doctrines of the Word as ordained by him.

That you accuse Calvinism of taking the Spirit out of understanding and basing everything on knowledge clearly shows that you don't know what you're talking about. No knowledge comes without the Spirit. No knowledge comes without the Word. No Calvinist would claim to understand the word apart from the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Again, you fail to understand the position that you oppose and end up slandering it because of your failure.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[ghs1994]

Then you have misunderstood the Gospel. All believers are elect.

(Colossians 3:11, 12 KJV) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


​

Soli Deo Gloria


Jon

I believe the "elect" are concerning Israel, not the Gentile nation. The Gospel message is simply put: Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead. Shed His blood for the remission of sins. Those who believe in Him shall have everlasting life. Why complicate the message? Why make it more difficult than it has to be.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. NASB

I do believe we need knowledge, please don't misunderstand me there, but it is not solely based on knowledge. If that were the case, love means absolutely nothing.

 

[Jon_]

Okay, I'm going to try to be more patient. I now see that you are really lacking in sound biblical instruction, so I will do my best, God willing, to expound his whole truth to you.

Faith is not based on knowledge. . . .

Let me ask you this. If you have no knowledge of God, how can you have faith in him? If you know absolutely nothing about God's plan for salvation, how can you believe in it? If you don't know the Person and work of Christ, how can you have faith in him? You can't. You see, you are committing the blunder of liberalism, which desires to take sound biblical knowledge out of religion and instead base it only on some unchristian notion of "faith." This kind of faith is nowhere found in the Bible. In the Bible, faith is synonymous with knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 1:3).

Think of the accounts of the miracles that Jesus did. Each time he said, "According to your faith," he meant, according to their knowledge of him. They knew he was the son of David and prophesied Messiah and they knew he had the power to perform miracles. If they didn't know this, what reason would they have to believe he could heal them? And think of Jesus's many rebukes to his disciples, saying, "O ye of little faith." They should have know he was the Messiah and had been given the power by the Father to do all things. They should have known this, but because they did not, they did not believe it, or have faith that he could calm the stormy seas, for instance.

If [faith were based on knowledge], then the Pharisees would not have been condemned for their actions and they would have been saved.

No, this is wrong. The Pharisees were condemned because they thought their works justified them. They did not think that they were justified by faith, and indeed, they did not have faith God, they had faith in themselves and their generation (of Abraham).

Knowing how to be fruitful for Christ and leading a Christ-like existence is based upon knowledge of the scriptures, by which the Holy Spirit leads us.

Yes! Now you're getting there.

Concerning the Pharisees saying we have Abraham as their father believed that they were of the promise because they were Jewish and decended from him, thinking they were exempt from wrath thru the promise of election. But unfortunately, Christ knew this was not the case. It was those who had faith who were the seed of Abraham.

Right again. Their knowledge was wrong. They thought that simply being the offspring of Abraham saved them. They thought that observing the law through piety saved them. They thought everything except the one true thing that could save them, faith in Christ Jesus, because they did not know they needed a Savior (see John 3:10; 6:64-66; 8:43, etc.).

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Reformationist]

Just as a side note to Jon's post, for faith to qualify as true saving faith it must be comprised of certain elements.

They are:

Notitia - Knowledge of the Gospel
Assensus - Agreement that the content of your knowledge, i.e., notitia, is true and binding.
Fiducia - Personal reliance upon the promise of God as contained in the Gospel.

Hope that helps,
God bless