rhomphaeam
Robert Chisholm
- Jul 13, 2021
- 117
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- United Kingdom
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- Calvinist
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- Married
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he should when other Western Christians erroneously speak of Orthodoxy as if they know what they are talking about.
Im a Jew. But you win priest. May the Lord indeed have mercy.
I know this is the debate section, but I wasn't sure how my post would be responded to elsewhere (Cause it is bring typed with considerable anguish, I apologize it is a rant in pain)
I have an 18 year old son, who has become interested in Orthodoxy.
(He has promised to work through scripture and the early church documents with me)
My family are evangelical protestants.
Do I have it correct that if he commits to Orthodoxy it would mean:
He cannot take communion with his family.
He cannot attend a church service with his family, except for weddings and funerals
He cannot pray with us (we have had a 5 min together nearly ever night since the boys were infants).
So that the next time we will be in church together would when I'm dead, and only then begrudgingly.
Of course I have the hope that we both (with the grace of God) be together in heaven.
I get the need from your perspective to defend truth, however it is said of God "that your kindness leads to repentance".
All the Orthodox that I have meant in person are so nominal and uncommitted to being a disciple of Jesus, it is largely just a cultural things they do once or twice a year. So my son could pray with utterly luke warm, apathetic orthodox people but has to effectively spiritual shun his own family.
This seems on par with the JW's and the Plymouth Exclusive Brethren.
I believe the separation of his body (the church) from each other causes great sorrow for Jesus, and I for one would wish that we could live out the ones of Ephesian 4. But if my son joins Orthodoxy, I will get some idea of what being a "man of sorrows" means, cause at the moment I cannot feel that a day would pass but the sorrow of the separation would not hurt.
Now I get you will say it is for vital truths, and of course despite that I ascribe to both Nicaea/Chalcedon, baptism as a saving sacrament, even the theotokos, unless I choose to "enthnicize" to your ethnically drenched churches, the separation with my son must but be maintained. Given your churches cut communion over if Estonia could have its own church, and now over if Ukraine having its own church, to rank outsider I'm just not that it is anything to do with the love of Jesus.
I apologize if this is an uncharitable rant, we all need the mercy and love of God. I'm just not sure tearing families apart is the best way to live Jesus message out to the world but these are your churches. I can only hope that the LORD hastens his return to minimize the pain we cause another.
to your questions:
correct, he cannot take communion outside of Orthodoxy.
correct, he can't deny going to the Liturgy (although, exceptions can be made for special occasions. this is something for him to work out with his priest).
he shouldn't participate in the prayers, but he still can be with you as you pray. but again, this is something between him and his priest.
Lord have mercy.
I am sorry I have to disagree. I am not good in citating any sources because my memory is not good. During soviet union the patriarch knew that there would be an underground church and permitted it. So part of the church flew to the west during revolution. There was never ever a real separation. They united after having checked if the western church is still a true church. Now the church is united again and all possible failures are approved. And there were no failures because it was allowed by the Patriarch.What I said regarding Eastern Orthodoxy was chiefly stated in present tense. The only historical precept in past tense was stated about divisions within the Eastern Churches that gave Islam its upper hand. I am an Islamic Scholar and I have involvement with brethren in the East including the Levant and so I know how they perceive their own history. Regardless as to denominational distinctions in the East - which even at the time of Muhammed exited - both in the Arabian Peninsula and Syria and the Levant more broadly - those kind of details were only meaningful when set into present tense. What I said was that it isn't possible to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy in the West - but that it could only be held true in the East. What I could have stated was that when a son of a father turns to Eastern Orthodoxy in the West and he is already in a true faith into Christ then any such supposed conversion cannot be a conversion at all because a man can only convert to Christ.
I also recognise that I stated that many of the Churches in the East [and I cited Russian, Greek and Syriac] had by now a greater measure of the Holy Spirit in their midst - and that was also present tense yet was predicated on a historical claim to divisions and the ravages of Islam.
I know what I said and what any spirit filled believer could discern from what was hidden. The only wilful element I made was that I cited the wrong date for the death of Muhammed. I simply wanted to see if anyone would correct me. Apparently not!
Thanks for all who answered, some were kind, some were challenging and some were confusing.
We have both been studying and learning about Orthodoxy and then talking through what we think.
In some ways my own tradition is closer to Orthodox beliefs than many Evangelicals, as I come from a restorationist church tradition.
In other ways very different
- Synergism
- Faith is more than mental ascent
- Read Paul and James in a similar way; not faith and works; nor faith without works; but faith that works.
- Baptism is for remission of sin, union with Christ and entry into the church
- Partial depravity as opposed to Augustinian total depravity.
- Amillennialism
I have learnt that my son is names after two orthodox saints, one from Ireland and another from Brittany.
- Credobaptist
- Priest of all believers
- Deacon and Elders (your Priests) and viewing Overseers (your Bishsops) as synonym to Elders.
Anyway I would like to ask some more questions, so thanks for your responses in advance.
Most of the spread of Orthodoxy into Australia has been through migration rather than missionary activity, and the supply of Orthodox migrants has primarily come from countries that had only recently emerged from severe persecution, Greece had been subjucated under the Ottomon Empire for centuries, Russia had been under the heel of Communism and Serbia had suffered under both. So the Orthodox Christians were in survival mode, having struggled to keep their Orthodox faith alive under threat of extinction. Australia was also, at the time of these migrations, a largely Christian country, so you can't simply go about preaching Christ crucified when most people around you have accepted ChristThanks to both ArmyMatt and All4Christ,
My son and I continue to read, talk and pray. He suggested I read John of Damascus. I plan to read Ignatius as well. I have been watching Gavin Ortlund, who I have really enjoyed. (Who is very different to Jay Dyer, who my son watches, who already labelled me a Marcionite to my son.)
I note that America has an American Orthodox church but there is no such church in Australia, and from my understanding America only had it is own Orthodox church through Alaska having been Russian territory. So if yours is the universal church, why isn't there an Australian Orthodox church? Melbourne has 5 million people, the majority of whom are Angloceltic, but it appears there are very few services in English? (The ROCOR church he has visited has English services once a month) Why isn't there a St Alfred's or St Eanswythe's?
Correct on this point. Communion requires holding a common confession of faith. It's a sign of unity to the faith group and doctrines you belong to (hence being communal). Also in Orthodoxy, The Orthodox Christian themselves should have prepared themselves to receive. A priest can forbid a known sinner who refuses to confess, fast, and repent.Do I have it correct that if he commits to Orthodoxy it would mean:
He cannot take communion with his family.
This is more of a pastoral question. You are not wrong with what you write. In Orthodoxy certain canons and rules can be applied with "akribeia"- Greek for exactitude, strict application and rigid application, its following the exact letter of the law. OR they can be applied with "oikonomia" - Greek for "household management" which means applying rules with leniency and making exceptions. The latter application is more about looking at the spirit of the law and seeing if it can be disregarded in the spirit of the greater good.He cannot attend a church service with his family, except for weddings and funerals
He cannot pray with us (we have had a 5 min together nearly ever night since the boys were infants).
So that the next time we will be in church together would when I'm dead, and only then begrudgingly.
Of course I have the hope that we both (with the grace of God) be together in heaven.
Sure you can, in hopes of them coming to the Church. We do not believe in denominations or branch theory. For us the Church cannot be divided into competing heresies. It's impossible for the Body of Christ to be splintered or fragmented and divided against itself, Not a bone of His was broken.so you can't simply go about preaching Christ crucified when most people around you have accepted Christ" in that line lies the whole challenge of Orthodoxy and its relationship to followers of "the way" outside the Orthodoxy's understanding of Orthodoxy's singularity and organizational monopoly of the church and therefore the body of Christ. If it (the Orthodox church) really believes what it appears to believe then I can't help but see a disconnect.
My other questions, is I don't understand how the Orthodox hold the spirit is active in any real Christian manner outside their ranks? Am I to listen to Handel and JS Bach and not see the Holy Spirit working through true believers to glorify the real Jesus? Did not the Holy Spirit illuminate Bunyan to write the Pilgrim's Progress?
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