Question about the Trinity

[theseed]

I do not believe that hearing here refers to the passive intake of sound, rather an understanding, to some extent. Therefore, understanding is not a work. I can hear my neighbors talk, but I do not understand Spanish. We must understand certain things, to some extent, or we will not have anything in which to believe. We must understand there is a God, and only one God, and we must understand Jesus is God and that He died for our sins. We further must understand that we can do nothing to gain or earn justification. This is having an understanding of good theology, limited though it may be.

Limited or good understanding is not perfect understanding. If salvation depends on our intellect, then some of us such as the mentally retarded are doomed to hell.

 

[theseed]

Dude! You're totally missing the point. That you MUST believe in His name IS PERFECT THEOLOGY. False theology would be that you do not have to believe in His name.

But you are not just saying that you are saying that you have to believe in the Trinity to be saved. What else must someone believe in? Do they have to believe in believer's baptism? Do they have to be Arminian or Calvinist? Do they have to be pre-millenialist or post-millennialist? You see my point? Salvation is not based on how correct/perfect your theology is. If that is true, then only one denomination will be in Heaven.

 

[BT]

But you are not just saying that you are saying that you have to believe in the Trinity to be saved. What else must someone believe in? Do they have to believe in believer's baptism? Do they have to be Arminian or Calvinist? Do they have to be pre-millenialist or post-millennialist? You see my point? Salvation is not based on how correct/perfect your theology is. If that is true, then only one denomination will be in Heaven.

You must believe in the trinitarian God to be saved, because that is the God of the Bible. That is the only God that there is. If you don't believe in Him (don't believe in the Trinity) then you follow a false God and can not be saved. So it is necessary to have "correct" theology (which was the question) to be saved.

Do they have to believe in believer's baptism? No. Baptism does not save.

Do they have to be Arminian or Calvinist? No. Neither of these views are Biblical.

Do they have to be pre-mill, or post-mill? No. Both of these doctrines concern the already saved, and are not necessary for salvation.

Do they have to believe what the Bible says exactly, and in the God of the Bible exactly? Yes.

Salvation is not some floating idea out there. Salvation is a doctrine. A doctrine must be learned (if it's to be understood). And the correct doctrine must be learned if the correct outcome (salvation) is to be had. So no matter how you slice it, a correct theological (Bible taught) understanding of the doctrine of salvation MUST be had before a sinner can be saved.

 

[@@Paul@@]

What if one believes in Modalism vs. the Trinity?? are they saved?

 

[BT]

What if one believes in Modalism vs. the Trinity?? are they saved?

Heck, what if one is an ultradispensationalist? are they saved?

**ducks**

 

[2Timothy2]

theseed, I am not saying one must adhere to a system of theological dogma. But, we must believe that there is a God. That is theology. We must believe that Jesus is God. That is theology. We must believe Jesus died for our sins. That is theology. We must believe there is nothing we can do to earn salvation. That is theology.

Again, I am not saying that belief in a system of organized dogma is what is required. But there are essential things we must believe. These essential things are theological. Nor am I saying perfect understanding is required, as no one will ever attain such a thing. And certainly I am not saying one must be a Calvinist or Arminian, as I am neither.

My 6 year old nephew just recently accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour. Praise God that my brother did not just tell him to repeat some pretty words to a "prayer". He made sure the little guy understood what he was doing. Understood as far as a 6 year old could.

I am not sure we really disagree on this. I think it may be a misunderstanding of terms and the level of understanding meant. But if you really do think understanding is a 'work', then we differ greatly.

The question I am trying to get at with this thread, to get back on topic, is to what extent is an understanding of the Trinity is necessary.

 

[BT]

.. to what extent is an understanding of the Trinity necessary....

I would say a basic understanding. That there is One God, who exists in three persons, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirt.

That is a basic understanding of the Triune God. I would think.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Heck, what if one is an ultradispensationalist? are they saved?

**ducks**

It was an honest question.

Modalists do not believe in the triune nature of God.

Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.​

 

[theseed]

BT,

And if someone is trusting Christ as thier savior, but does not believe he is God is not saved?

2T2, My point is not whether understanding is a work, but that if salvation depends on it, then not everybody can be saved because some people have limited intellect. If an MR person can not grasp the concept of the Trinithy or they reject it, but they believe that Christ died for thier sins, then they are saved.

 

[MbiaJc]

.. to what extent is an understanding of the Trinity necessary....

I would say a basic understanding. That there is One God, who exists in three persons, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirt.

That is a basic understanding of the Triune God. I would think.

BT I sorry but I haft to disagree with this statment. I sure did not have a basic understanding of the triune God when I got saved at 12 yr. old. I was between 20-30 yr. old before I really got to studying my Bible. Till then it didn't matter to me I knew I was saved and forgiven by Jesus Christ, that all I knew and all I needed to know at the time about my salvation. I didn't know anything about the Father or the Holy Spirit, which I didn't haft to to be saved. The only thing needed is to believe in Jewus Christ work on the Cross or just believe in his name.

 

[theseed]

.. to what extent is an understanding of the Trinity necessary....

I would say a basic understanding. That there is One God, who exists in three persons, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirt.

That is a basic understanding of the Triune God. I would think.

You think? So if your wrong you are going to burn in hell?

God is not three persons but one. He has three personal attributes in one essence.

 

[BT]

BT,

And if someone is trusting Christ as thier savior, but does not believe he is God is not saved?

If someone does not believe that Jesus is God, then he is not saved. That (IMO) would be belief in a false Christ. Likely that will be one of the people who at the end say, "Didn't I do all these things for you.." and Christ will answer, "I never knew you, depart from me."

 

[BT]

BT I sorry but I haft to disagree with this statment. I sure did not have a basic understanding of the triune God when I got saved at 12 yr. old. I was between 20-30 yr. old before I really got to studying my Bible. Till then it didn't matter to me I knew I was saved and forgiven by Jesus Christ, that all I knew and all I needed to know at the time about my salvation. I didn't know anything about the Father or the Holy Spirit, which I didn't haft to to be saved. The only thing needed is to believe in Jewus Christ work on the Cross or just believe in his name.

Did you believe that Jesus was God?

Answer: (I assume) Yes.

Therefore you had a proper theological understanding.

If you believe in God, and that Jesus is God. Then that is enough to be saved. The answer to the question.. How much of an understanding of the Trinity is necessary ... I didn't think meant "To be saved".. but to understand who God is. You do not have to understand (in your lifetime) more than what I said. But the question was not "How much of an understanding of the Trinity do you need to have to be saved"..

 

[BT]

You think? So if your wrong you are going to burn in hell?

God is not three persons but one. He has three personal attributes in one essence.

I'm not going to bother splitting hairs with you. I've stated the case and that's enough for me....

 

[theseed]

I'm not going to bother splitting hairs with you. I've stated the case and that's enough for me....

You feel that one must adhere to correct theology to be saved, but yet you don't want to split hairs? I would think so if one's salvation depended on it.

 

[NicodemusPrime]

Did you believe that Jesus was God?

Answer: (I assume) Yes.

Therefore you had a proper theological understanding.

If you believe in God, and that Jesus is God. Then that is enough to be saved.

Ohhhhhh man............ I didn't want to jump in the middle of this battle, but I feel the need to point this out. Forgive me BT.

Sure he knew that Jesus was God at that point in his life, but did he know that the Holy Spirit was also God. I doubt it, I didn't at that age. Simply asking if he believed that Jesus was God doesn't cut it by your own definition, that is duality of God, not trinity. I think it is common, especially among us who were saved and Baptised in our early teens, to come to a complete understanding of God's triune nature a little later in life. Especially the role of the Holy Spirit in that trinity.

That is my experience at least.

 

[2Timothy2]

I believe I misspoke when I said believing in the Trinity is necessary for salvation. That is not exactly what I meant. I got caught up in other things and never went back and saw that error. What I meant to say was that certain things contained in this doctrine are essential to salvation. Namely that there is a God, and Jesus is God. How much understanding of who and what the Holy Spirit is is actually part of my second question in the OP.

theseed, the reason I was going on about understanding not being a work, was my understanding of your comment in post #14 to that effect. If that was not what you meant, then we are not in disagreement.

What about modalists/sabellians? Are they Christian? What damage does this heresy do to the doctrines of the Bible? This is part of my first question in the OP. I know of someone who is a modalist, and he is a teacher. I've never listened to him, but I wonder, what damage does his mistaken beliefs do?

Also, when it starts to get heated, let's remember [bible]2 Timothy 2:23-25[/bible]

This has been used of the Lord to convict me more than once here on CF. We are not always going to completely understand what the other poster is getting at. Sometimes it is better to ask for clarification than to begin refuting.

I think I am going to coast instead of post, for a while, and just read any new posts here.

 

[BT]

Ohhhhhh man............ I didn't want to jump in the middle of this battle, but I feel the need to point this out. Forgive me BT.

Sure he knew that Jesus was God at that point in his life, but did he know that the Holy Spirit was also God. I doubt it, I didn't at that age. Simply asking if he believed that Jesus was God doesn't cut it by your own definition, that is duality of God, not trinity. I think it is common, especially among us who were saved and Baptised in our early teens, to come to a complete understanding of God's triune nature a little later in life. Especially the role of the Holy Spirit in that trinity.

That is my experience at least.

No problem brother.

If we look all the back to the beginning of the thread this was the initial question..

"Why is a correct view of the doctrine of the Trinity important? And, can one be a true Christian and deny the doctrine of the Trinity? "
So we weren't talking about salvation per-say. But the importance of understanding the person of God. When we talk about salvation, we have to be very careful. After all the Bible tells us that the "requirements" for salvation are quite simple:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

But we move past this with the OP. We start talking about God. So according to Romans 10:9 we don't have to know about the trinity to be saved. While at the same time we can talk about certain cults that are around who teach that Jesus was a man, or that Jesus was a god amongst many gods. If a cultist is the one "witnessing" to you, and he/she is witnessing about a "Jesus" who is not the one found in the Bible. Then is the person who believes in this "Jesus" saved? I would say no according to the words of Christ:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

False Christs (such as the christ of the Mormons and the christ of the JW's) will not save anyone because there is no salvation in them. So if we go back to the second part of the OP "can you be saved and deny the doctrine of the Trinity" you see why I say no.

Then we digressed with theseed who changed the question to:

BT, why does salvation depend on having correct theology? Why does one have know exactly what The Bible teaches to be a Christian--to be saved?

And the question was answered. Salvation depends on having a correct understanding of who Christ is, what He did, why He did it (this is called correct theology, a correct understanding). Why does one have to know exactly what the Bible teaches to be a Christian- to be saved? Well because the Bible is God's revelation to us. It is the Bible that teaches us how to be a Christian - to be saved.
From there the conversation digressed in the normal fashion between he and I, and for that I apologize.

In reading this comment by Nicodemus I realized (again) the idiocy of entering into circular debates with our good friend theseed. A mistake I have made before and will try to avoid in the future.

So to end this nightmare circle I'll finish (my posts) saying. That there is only one God, who sent His Son to save us all (John 3:16). If you believe on Him you will be saved (Acts 16:31). The salvation offerred to all men by God is a simple plan that we foolishly complicate.

Remember the "High Priests" of our day have traded in the breast-plates and the hems (Matthew 23:5) for caps and gowns. They do not seek to be called "Rabbi rabbi" (Matthew 23:7) rather they seek to be called "Doctor Doctor". (Of course this does not refer to all..)

 

[MbiaJc]

No problem brother.

If we look all the back to the beginning of the thread this was the initial question..

"Why is a correct view of the doctrine of the Trinity important? And, can one be a true Christian and deny the doctrine of the Trinity? "
So we weren't talking about salvation per-say. But the importance of understanding the person of God. When we talk about salvation, we have to be very careful. After all the Bible tells us that the "requirements" for salvation are quite simple:


But we move past this with the OP. We start talking about God. So according to Romans 10:9 we don't have to know about the trinity to be saved. While at the same time we can talk about certain cults that are around who teach that Jesus was a man, or that Jesus was a god amongst many gods. If a cultist is the one "witnessing" to you, and he/she is witnessing about a "Jesus" who is not the one found in the Bible. Then is the person who believes in this "Jesus" saved? I would say no according to the words of Christ:


False Christs (such as the christ of the Mormons and the christ of the JW's) will not save anyone because there is no salvation in them. So if we go back to the second part of the OP "can you be saved and deny the doctrine of the Trinity" you see why I say no.

Then we digressed with theseed who changed the question to:

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And the question was answered. Salvation depends on having a correct understanding of who Christ is, what He did, why He did it (this is called correct theology, a correct understanding). Why does one have to know exactly what the Bible teaches to be a Christian- to be saved? Well because the Bible is God's revelation to us. It is the Bible that teaches us how to be a Christian - to be saved.
From there the conversation digressed in the normal fashion between he and I, and for that I apologize.

In reading this comment by Nicodemus I realized (again) the idiocy of entering into circular debates with our good friend theseed. A mistake I have made before and will try to avoid in the future.

So to end this nightmare circle I'll finish (my posts) saying. That there is only one God, who sent His Son to save us all (John 3:16). If you believe on Him you will be saved (Acts 16:31). The salvation offerred to all men by God is a simple plan that we foolishly complicate.

Remember the "High Priests" of our day have traded in the breast-plates and the hems (Matthew 23:5) for caps and gowns. They do not seek to be called "Rabbi rabbi" (Matthew 23:7) rather they seek to be called "Doctor Doctor". (Of course this does not refer to all..)

They are what is known as learned men of our times. Rather comical, the greatest hounor you can bestow on a fellow Christian is to call them brother\sister, go figure. They aparently don't know that they had rather be called Doctor.