question about the trinity

[lgm84]

I recently accepted Christ into my life. As you can imagine i have read almost everything that i can get my hands on. i have run across a very important issue to me:
The NKL bible states

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

i don't quite understand the trinity as it has been set up. John states whe must KNOW God. the document that is the nicene creed. (i know that some would say the bible is the earliest but really that is open to interpritation and there are multiple refrences that support bothe sides of the trinity argument.) this document confuses me, and it apears to me that the it contradicts itself right and left, line after line.

Niceian creed~
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
He came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.*
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets...


*Roman Catholics and Protestants add ‘and the Son’ at this point.

To know God i apperantly must understand the Trinity. How do i go about doing that?

 

[suzybeezy]

Thread moved from Debate forums to New Christian forum

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, IGM! Welcome to the boards, and welcome to the FAMILY! You are family. You have joined us in a fellowship of love through Christ that will last forever.

First --- when you say, "I have recently accepted Jesus" --- what does that mean to you? Do you understand the idea of "BORN AGAIN"?

Most of the questions about Christianity, are answered in Romans. The idea of "Born Again", is in ch6. When Jesus died, we were truly united with Him in death. Our old selves DIE; and that means, die to sin. Then --- as Jesus was raised from the dead, we were ALSO united in His resurrection. All of this is in Rom6:1-4. "Crucified/died/buried/immersed/united" in His death, and then united in His resurrection. (Notice that "Baptiso" here, means "immersed", and doesn't mean "water"; immersed into Jesus.

Being a Christian is not a belief. It is not a doctrine; not a lifestyle, not a dogma, not a list of "do's" and/or "don'ts". When we receive Christ, His actual person indwells our hearts. We also receive the person of the Holy Spirit. So begins an eternity of loving fellowship.

Fellowship --- what does that mean? You cannot fellowship with a person, unless you spend time with them. God is a person --- so we can spend time with Him.

Time. Prayer. First, is "worship/praise". God inhabits praise; when you praise Him, He inhabits you. He is worthy! He is perfect! He is righteous! He is LOVE!!!

Second, is repentance. He has promised to forgive our sins, if we repent. THEN --- He does something really really amazing. The God of the Universe --- infinite, omnipresent, omniscient, perfect --- when He forgives our sins, He FORGETS that we ever SINNED!!! When you think about it, it's really awesome...

Next --- is the prayer of thanksgiving. What do you have, that did not come from Him? You were born naked, you will die that way (unless Jesus returns). Unthankfulness is arguably the root of sin. In Matt18:3-4, we're told that without childish humility we WILL not enter Heaven. Thankfulness is the foundation of humility. It is impossible to be anything but humble, when you are truly thankful for what you've received...

Next --- intercession. The opposite of "Christian", is SELFISH. When we're praying our hearts out for others, both friends and enemies, praying for their health and physical needs and for their salvation (praying that God changes US into what we need to be for Him to reach them), it is impossible to be selfish!

Next --- fellowship! IGM, do you know that God delights in you? He ENJOYS your company? His thoughts of you outnumber the sand. Do you know what the "torn veil" means? The moment Jesus died, the veil in the temple tore. An inches-thick fabric, that separated people from the very presence of God. JESUS has now become the perfect priest, and through Him you are invited behind the veil, you are washed clean by Jesus' blood, and you are welcomed into the very presence of God! Isn't that awesome?

Another "facet of prayer", is waiting on Him. Quiet your lips, your heart, your soul; wait on His presence, His still small voice. We are promised, if we seek Him, we will find Him!

The final "facet", is pettition. How often prayer only begins and ends with this! He is not our "cosmic santa"; He's our father! He already knows what we need, and has promised to meet our needs. What about our wants? In Psalm 37:4, "Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart." If you're delighting in Him, then your desires will be His desires.


Now (you're thinking "finally"?) --- the idea of "trinity". Look in Genesis --- God is both "singular" (God made man in HIS image), and "plural" (God said "let US make man in OUR image"). Who is Jesus? A second "god"? No. In Isaiah 43, and 45, it's clear that there is only one God, none made before Him, none after.

...but Jesus had no beginning. He has always existed. See Heb6:19 (hey! Now you know what "enters behind the veil" means!) through Heb7:3.

One GOD --- who exists in three persons. There is a view called "modalism", that proposes God can BECOME the Son, who can BECOME the Spirit. That can't be true; they can co-exist in the same place and time (remember when Jesus was baptized, the Father spoke from Heaven, and the Spirit descended as a dove? Matt3:16-17). Jesus doesn't know everything the Father does (Matt24:36). But in Jesus dwells the fullness of GODHEAD (Col2:9), He existed in the form of God and did not consider equality with God robbery; but laid aside His privileges and was found in appearance as a man (Philip2:5-7).

In John1:1-3, Jesus is the Creator, Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. All things were created through Jesus, and apart from Him was nothing created that was created. (So much for HIM being a "created being"!) Jesus is not "created", but has always existed.

In Rev1:8, Jehovah-God is "Alpha/Omega first and last, beginning and end". In Rev22:12-14, JESUS is "Alpha/Omega" and "first/last" and "beginning/end".

Three persons, one being. In John10:30, Jesus said "I and the Father are ONE". The Greek word He used, meant "one-in-essence"; the Jews clearly understood His meaning, because they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy. Same thing happened in Jn8:58 --- read the context, and understand Jesus was saying: "Before Abraham was born, I AM".

"I am", meant "I am THE 'I Am'." (He was claiming to be God.)

In John14, Jesus said "why do you wish to see the Father? Do you not now I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? If you have seen Me, you've seen the Father."

So, dear "IGM", now you understand about as much as we do. Jesus is fully God, but not the Father; the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God --- but there is only one BEING of God. One Being, who exists in three persons.

i don't quite understand the trinity as it has been set up. John states whe must KNOW God. the document that is the nicene creed. (i know that some would say the bible is the earliest but really that is open to interpretation and there are multiple refrences that support bothe sides of the trinity argument.)

I don't think so, IGM. I've found nothing that conflicts the idea of a "tri-unity".

... this document confuses me, and it apears to me that the it contradicts itself right and left, line after line.

Please tell me where you still see "contradictions", and we can discuss them.

May God bless you, mature you, and use you mightily to grow the Family!

 

[AvgJoe]

To know God i apperantly must understand the Trinity. How do i go about doing that?

The following website has been a tremendous help to me, concerning this subject, and I believe it will be helpful to you as well.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm

Scroll about half way down the page to the sections titled: The Trinity, Trinity Verses List & Objections To The Trinity Answered

God bless!

 

[heymikey80]

I recently accepted Christ into my life. As you can imagine i have read almost everything that i can get my hands on. i have run across a very important issue to me:
The NKL bible states
i don't quite understand the trinity as it has been set up. John states whe must KNOW God. the document that is the nicene creed. (i know that some would say the bible is the earliest but really that is open to interpritation and there are multiple refrences that support bothe sides of the trinity argument.) this document confuses me, and it apears to me that the it contradicts itself right and left, line after line.

To know God i apperantly must understand the Trinity. How do i go about doing that?

Let me start by saying I'm thoroughly Trinitarian. And ... this is a great question! If you want to dive in more, check out CARM cited above.

That said, I think you could be gettin wrapped around thinking this is a requirement when this is not truly the case.

Yes, John says we should know God. But that doesn't mean we should understand or comprehend God -- God is inscrutable. God is unknowable. God is God. We are not.

To demand we comprehend God is simply gnosis, in its purist form -- the idea Gnosticism grew out of. It's the idea that we are required to comprehend God in order to be saved by Him.

So what did John mean?

Well, you know other people, right? You know your friends? How about your pastor or your parents? Yes?

Okay, what's their essential nature? Is it trinitarian -- body, soul, spirit? Or is it bilateral -- body, spirit? Don't know? Good. That's my point.

And yet you do know them.

That's what John means. You know your friends and parents relationally.

Do you know Christ relationally? If you don't, get to praying and confessing and talking with Christ, and listening to Christ respond in the Scriptures. You will get to know Christ soon enough.

That's what John means. Stick with it.

Trinitarian doctrine will follow as you grow in what Christ said in the Scriptures, and talk with other people who have learned from Him and who know Him as well.

 

[Ben johnson]

Mikey has some good points. He agrees with what I said about "knowing God" --- ie, "fellowship".

And though we may not be able to know everything God knows (face it, He's the ultimate physicist, engineer, biologist, etcetera!) --- there is so much about Him we can know.

"That which is known about God, is evident within them, because God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made --- so they are therefore without excuse." Rom1:19-20

God can be seen in what He has made.

God can be understood through the Scripture He inspired. The more you read the Scriptures, the more you will know Him and understand Him.

If you seek God, you will find Him. If you dwell in Him, He will dwell in you --- and you will understand Him.

I do not believe "God is unknowable"; He loves us, and wants us to know Him. That's what Heaven is all about. Not "crowns", not "golden streets and heavenly mansions"; eternity is being with Him, the essence of love.

 

[salida]

I recently accepted Christ into my life. As you can imagine i have read almost everything that i can get my hands on. i have run across a very important issue to me:
The NKL bible states
i don't quite understand the trinity as it has been set up. John states whe must KNOW God. the document that is the nicene creed. (i know that some would say the bible is the earliest but really that is open to interpritation and there are multiple refrences that support bothe sides of the trinity argument.) this document confuses me, and it apears to me that the it contradicts itself right and left, line after line.

To know God i apperantly must understand the Trinity. How do i go about doing that?

The trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are equal in power, authority, nature and essense - thus are one God. Also, they are three eternally distinct and therefore persons.

This is the trinity in a nutshell according to scripture below which verifies my statement above.

There is one God: Isaiah 43:10 - Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - are fully and completely God.
- There is but one God the Father, I Corinthians 8:6
- The Father speaking to the Son says - "Your throne, O God, will last forever and forever, Hebrews 1:8
- Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, Acts 5:3-4

The Father and Son love one another and speak to each other, John 17:1-26. And together send the Holy Spirit, John 15:26.

Jesus proclaims that he and the Father are two distinct witnesses and distinct judges, John 8:14-18.

So, its the one What and the Three Who's.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, Acts 5:3-4

....and, Peter said "You have lied to GOD".

Good post, "Salida"!

 

[Krystabelle]

The Son is not the Father
The Father is not the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is not the Son
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God


Trust me, no one have the accurate explanation. But don't get all mixed up... God doesn't want us to get stuck in complications. Sometimes all we need is simple faith. Of course, I'm only spritually 1 month old ...heh . . . I live with pastors, so I have an advantage of asking. The Father is the creator, the Son is the Saviour and the Holy Spirit is in us all. But all in all, we worship One GOD.

 

[JPPT1974]

We worship one God through
His son and we see God in
Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit!