question about the times of the mark of the beast

[JohnMarsten]

I understand that it is SDA believe that during the end times there will be a time of trouble know as the sunday law, during which people will be killed if they dont worship on a sunday. THe bible tells us that those who dont take up the mark of the beast sign will not be able to buy or sell...

Now I was wondering yesterday

when you have a look at matthew 24;40-41

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



what is this talking about? some people claim it is in regard to the rapture which in the traditional sense SDAs (among others) claim does not exist.


Now how does these two verses and the whole rapture idea relate to the mark of the beast?

 

[MidnightCry]

Greetings JohnMarsten,

You are asking how these verses and the rapture relate to the mark of the beast.

I'm not sure that they do. I have seen a couple different views on those verses, but I don't think they are connected to the mark of the beast.

I think you have to read verses 36 through 44 to get the whole picture.

36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come..... 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

The day of the Lord is not just one day. Daniel tells us it is 1,335 days in length. Daniel 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. Certain events have to happen during the 1,335 days before Jesus actually appears in the sky above the earth.

Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censor, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

People on earth will be busy eating and drinking, buying and selling,marrying; in other words, busy with worldly affairs. Then, the censor will be cast down and a great earthquake will occur. The seven trumpets will begin. Some people will lose their life during this time. It will begin when people least expect it. That's why it says one will be taken, the other left.

The other view is that, when Jesus comes back and raptures the saints, some will be taken and the others left. You could be working right next to someone and not know if they are saved. Salvation is a very individual decision. No one can make a decision for you. Each person has to decide for them self.

So, I guess it depends how you look at it.

I hope this helps you.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[E.T.Elijah]

The same description can be found in Luke 17:34-36: "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Secret rapture proponents say this passage proves that the saints will suddenly disappear from the earth when Jesus returns. But let's take an honest look at the evidence and see what these verses actually teach.

In Luke 17:34-36, Jesus employs some of His favorite symbols to illustrate a simple point. At the end of time, there will be just two groups of people living upon the earth - the lost and the saved.

"Two Men in One Bed."
A bed generally connotes sleep, and Jesus used sleep as a symbol of death. He said to the disciples, "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." (John 11:11, 14). In the resurrection at the last day, there will be two kinds of people sleeping in the grave - the lost and the saved.

"Two Women Grinding Together."
In Bible prophecy, a woman is a symbol of a church (Jeremiah 6:2). Grinding grain represents working with the Word of God. When Christ comes in glory, there will be two kinds of churches - the false and the true. Both will be outwardly doing the same thing, but only one will be redeemed. "Two Men in The Field".
The field represents the world (Matthiew 13:38). When Jesus comes again, there will be two kinds of missionaries laboring out in the field - the false and the true. This is why He said, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22, 23).


Last but not least, consider the following passage of Scripture: "And as it was in the days of Noe [Greek for 'Noah'], so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:26-30 emphasis added).
Notice that the wicked were destroyed on the same day that the Flood came to Noah and on the same day that the fire came to Sodom. Jesus emphasizes at both the beginning and the end of this passage that these earlier judgments, which destroyed all of the wicked, were examples of what would happen at His second coming. The Bible is crystal clear that life on earth does not continue for either man or beast after Jesus comes.

 

[E.T.Elijah]

To add to that I think I am inagreement with Midnightcry that they really do not relate to the mark of the beast. The mark is to distinguish who are the true followers and the false. These verses relate to what is going on (by both groups) in the world at Christs coming .

 

[JohnMarsten]

of course, thats one possible interpretation, at the end of days there will be people saved and not so saved...

still I was wondering if there was some other meaning to it... cause the idea of these verses is one tranquility and sudden 'disaster' (at least for some), while the mark of the beast theory seems to be of different sort...

and this is where these verses correlate... in the end of days there will be two women grinding... one will receive the mark of the beast while the other one will NOT...

 

[E.T.Elijah]

Well from my understanding of the pre-tribulation rapture is that these verses take place prior to the mark of the beast taking effect. The ones taken are secretly raptured away and those that are left get 7 years to repent and turn to God. Sometime during those 7 years (3 1/2 I believe) the mark of the beast is enforced upon the population of the earth. According to a popular series (Left Behind) it is some sort of microchip or something imbedded in the forehead or hand. Although they do write in the series that some faithful christians accept the chip in order to infultrate the anti-christs inner government. But I guess that is more of a creative licensing thing then an actual theological thing. But these verses also point out that one group is where the eagles (vultures depending on the translation) are gathered...leaving one to presume they are dead as vultures are scavengers of dead carcasses. But either way I do not believe that either Matthew's or Luke's account of Jesus words are to be mistaken for the popular pre-tribulation rapture. Just in the days of Noah there were those who entered the ark and were saved through the flood (tribulation) and the rest perished...The door was closed and it was 7 days before the rain came. No one entered the ark after the door closed...their time to repent was passed...nor did they even see a reason to as the Bible shows that they were carrying on as though nothing was going to happen...but then the rain came and washed them all away.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Greetings to All:

Let's read what the Bible says about the "Mark of the Beast," but first what is its purpose and why?​

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, who's deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Rev 13:12 ​

Now no one has ever talked about the image to the beast according to the Bible which is very plain. You must go back first to the Garden of Eden and read about the Serpent who really was a dragon with wings that had intellect but could not speak man's language.​

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which YAHWEH Elohim had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath Elohim said, ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:1

The King James Scribes felt that this word prudent should stand for crafty and that is not so! The serpent could fly and had wisdom or subtlety but could not be like man! He was tricked and it wasn't him that was speaking but Satan. He was used like a dummy ok! Here's another example:​

When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as YAHWEH had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerer's: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. Ex 7:9-12​

First notice it was a serpent but the difference between Elohim's serpent and the sorcerer's is Elohim's serpent was alive theirs were not! Satan through a false prophet will get the whole world to make an image to the beast. Now where have we heard something similar? ​

And Elohim said, Let Us make man in Our Resemblance, after Our Likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So Elohim created man in His Own Resemblance, in the Resemblance of Elohim created He him; male and female created He them. And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen 1:26-28​

Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. Dan 3:1

It you understand what Elohim did do and what Nebuchadnezzar attempted to do, than you will understand the image and the mark of the beast, which is not any Sunday Blue law. Satan will attempt to trick man again by making the world believe that the image they make is alive and can speak. This is because the serpent could not speak in the beginning and neither was the serpents of Egypt or the image of Nebuchadnezzar was alive! A mark is a tattoo that will be placed on all of those who follow the beast/man and not the Papacy and her followers. There will be two evil foes during the Time of Trouble, the beast/man will get the aid of Satan's full army of angels, the false prophet and the ten kings he will make to control all regions of the earth. They will give him ultimate power, they all hate the harlot (the Papacy and her followers, who are now housed in Jerusalem), there will be a battle and the beast/man will win. ​

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri

 

[Xenon]

of course, thats one possible interpretation, at the end of days there will be people saved and not so saved...

still I was wondering if there was some other meaning to it... cause the idea of these verses is one tranquility and sudden 'disaster' (at least for some), while the mark of the beast theory seems to be of different sort...

and this is where these verses correlate... in the end of days there will be two women grinding... one will receive the mark of the beast while the other one will NOT...

Verse 40 starts with the word "then", referring back to "the coming of the Son of man". Not only that, but the statements about one being "taken" match those a few verses prior. It is compared to the time of Noah where people had no idea their probation ended and so continued with business as usual. Separating the two is logically impossible: the connections are far too strong.

Comparing Jesus' statement with Revelation 13, He must have been speaking about an aspect of that time period. That is, the people will be surprised at His coming, just like those during Noah's day were surprised. But Revelation 13 makes it clear that it will be more "eventful" than Noah's day was.

Your statement about one person having the mark and the other not is spot on, however. The people who go to heaven have victory over the mark of the beast. One of those women clearly does not have victory over the mark.

 

[Laureate]

Greetings brother Marsten, it looks like you provoked some pretty good leads there, if you don't mind I would like to point out a few things that haven't been expounded yet.

There is a relationship between the 1/3 of the stars being drawn by the tail of the dragon and the mark of the beast 666 Revelation

12:3
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

In our world of mathematics, (specif., in the region of fractions and decimals) 333 = 1/3, and 666 = 2/3, and 999 = 1(whole):

The Great red dragon is the (planet) Earth.

What are the 2 or 3 witness to establish this?

one) The word 'ADMH' not only translates as land, earth, soil, etc., it is the Hebrew feminine for the color 'red'; technically the biblical word for 'red' and 'earth' are the same word.

two) We are to expect only one sign, the sign of Jonah:

In Yeshua's parable, the Whale represents the Earth does it not? well the Hebrew word 'ThNYN' tranlates in the bible as 'Whale', and 'dragon', they are the same word.

The Earth is the Molten Lava/Rock and Consuming fire whose throne is Heaven.

Heaven, (lit. our planet's atmosphere, as defined by Gen.1:6-8 and confirmed in verse 20 i.e., heaven is lit.,where the birds fly).

Check your Greek lexicon/dictionary the root for 'Theos' (KJV transl. 'God') is 'Theon' lit., 'brimstone'; Which is harmonic with the title 'El Shadai' lit., the 'Great Mountain' or 'many breasted one', and erroneously translated as 'Almighty'.

Isaiah 65:16
That he who blesses himself in the Earth shall bless himself in the true Deity; and he that swears in the Earth shall swear by the true Deity;

For ever since he spoke to the Israelites from the fire that came down the Mt. he has been called the Rock and Consuming fire, and Moses himself acknowledges...

Psalms 90:1
YHWH, you have been our dwelling place in all generations.

Remember, they called the Master of the house 'Beelzebub', which is a title ascribed unto Satan.

Matthew 10:25
...If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Matthew 12:27
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

Because they had not the love of truth, this is the (global) delusion Eloheem promised.

II Thessalonians 2:10
...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 ...Theos shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This is why two great signs appear in Revelation 12 instead of one as promised by Yeshua, the two are one in the same, merely two diferent perspectives one for the lovers of truth, and one for those who do not love the truth.

The tail of the Dragon is Elijah, for one of the literal meanings of the word Elijah is, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]/tail (of a lamb), see Strong's 451 and 452.

Isaiah 9:15
The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teachs lies, he is the tail.

I John 5:10
He that believes on the Son of Theos has the witness in himself: he that believes not Theos has made him a liar; because he believes not the record that Theos gave of his Son.

So you see, when we do not believe the prophets who speak the word of Eloheem, we make him out to be a liar.

When Elijah comes as promised in Malachi 4:1 and in Mathew 17:11 he will restore all things, and turn the hearts of the Fathers toward the children and visa-versa.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of YHWH:


Matthew 17:11
And Yeshua answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Now consider how the number 3 appears throughout the 33 years of Yeshua's life.see thread 'have you ever noticed' in the Messianic bridge builders sub forum.

Hence, the 1/3 (.333) of the stars drawn by Elijah represents the few inhabitants of the earth who have the love of truth, yet have died and gone to heaven until the last days whence the following promises have been made...

Deuteronomy 30:3
...then YHWH your Eloheem will turn your captivity, and have compassion upon you, and will return and gather you from all the nations, whither YHWH your Eloheem has scattered you.

30:4
If any of you have been driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will YHWH your Eloheem gather you, and from thence will he fetch you:

30:5
And YHWH your Eloheem will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply you above your fathers.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:.

12:42
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:

When the Dragon/serpent casts water as a flood out of his mouth after the woman...

The prophet/mouth of the Rock and Consuming fire will speak and his words are intended to overwhelm the 1/3 with his preaching, which inturn shall carry them away, this is the lit., meaning of Rapture according to Websters 3rd DAE

rapture (rap' tyer) n. [see Rapt + -ure] 1 the state of being carried away with joy, love, etc., ecstasy 2 an expression of great joy, pleasure, etc. 3 a carrying away or being carried away in body or spirit vt. to enrapture; fill with ecstasy

Revelation 12:16
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The Earth here represents both the Dragon and the 'Heart' of the woman,

for the Dragon/Earth speaks with a voice of many waters i.e., a flood, and the Earth/heart of the woman swallows/believes the voice of many waters, (which also is twofold),

for in his preaching he will tell the believers that it is time to go under ground until the scourge passes, hence the Earth will swallow the flood of people who believe the voice of many waters.

The truth was veiled in this manner so that no man would dare make these claims until the appointed time.

This in no manner contradicts brother E.T. Elijah's expounding, which I must say is quite impressive seeing how he also uses scripture to interpret scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24 says that "immediately after the tribulation of those days... he will gather his elect". It is clear then that the rapture where the saints are gathered to Christ - happens after the tribulation.

As you point out the text says that the saved and the unsaved will be living in the same place. But in Matt 24 we are told of a great tribulation and great persecution of the saints. It is unlikely that the saints will be fellowshipping with those who wish to persecute them - but they may be in chains, in captivity, in the field working with those who oppress them.

in Christ,

Bob