Question about the flood

Ronald · Aug 21, 2017

GatodeQ said:
I feel like I'm under fire here... these forums are a really scary place to ask questions!

But this is probably my fault. My question might not have been clear enough. So I'll give it another try:

What my Question is: God asked Noah to build an ark to save the animals. The animals were his own creation. He could have re-created them after the flood.

Therefore, what was the purpose of saving the animals?
Or, in other words, why go through all the trouble?

What the Question is not:
a) do you believe in God
b) do you believe the Bible
c) do you believe the event of the flood

Thank you for not shooting me on site and for not judging me.
Lets treat one another as brothers.

Sin corrupted the entire world and all on it.
We can see fear, hate, greed and envy even in the animal kingdom. I know, you think it would be easier to just create a new flesh untainted batch, right? But they needed to be in that state, it was a curse that God already had a remedy for. The knowledge of good and evil needed to be seen, experienced and understood throughout history until the day when God would remove sin and evil and that day will come soon.
You must also wonder why God put that tree in there and also the Devil to tempt them?
It was part of the plan. Good cannot really be appreciated or understood unless we have first gone without it and experienced the opposite. Love, mercy, forgiveness, patience, hope, joy, kindness, self control, even faith could not be know otherwise. And God cannot force us to love and obey Him, we had to be given a choice.

Subduction Zone · Aug 21, 2017

Oscarr said:
NOAH’S ARK | Wyatt Archaeological Research

I know that some accuse Wyatt of being a fraud, but I have studied his website and he does provide evidence as good as any others. It would be easier from some religious historians to accuse Wyatt of being a fraud than to have to rewrite their history books. I have seen absolutely no proof given by those who accuse him of being a fraud that the evidence he produces is fake.

It is far beyond mere accusations. The man was a fraud. He was a liar and a loon. If I have time I will dig up some of the refutations of his idiocy.

Tell me this, why did he not do his work properly? Why didn't he run it through peer review?

Ronald · Aug 21, 2017

Speedwell said:
I am more concerned about Christians who promote an egregious right-wing political agenda because they have been persuaded that it is "Biblical," Christians who tolerate the Klan and other such groups, who think that the Civil War is something the South should be proud of, Christians whose morality is largely based on perverted and inaccurate ideas about human sexuality...

You have it backwards, the KKK, Jim Crow and all the confederates who fought to keep slaves WERE DEMOCRATS. You don't know your history. Lincoln and the rest of the yankees were Republican - right wing and he was one of our greatest presidents. Democrats want to distort history, change it so it fits their agenda. The news and the Dems are desperately trying to distort reality with their lies and fabrications. Hillary lost because she is crooked and weak, no other reason.

FrumiousBandersnatch · Aug 21, 2017

Jason0047 said:
It has nothing to do with the evidences whatsoever. You reject the evidences out of hand out right before you even start because of your world view.

The evidence of just two of these things is all it takes to refute you. But I provided 20 that makes it a landslide of a case against what you believe. But you cannot see it because you do not want to see it. The only way you are able to see if you repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior by God's Word. So I would encourage that you do this right away so you can see where I am coming from.

You give every indication of having come straight from a shonky creationist web site with a hatful of nonsense.

We've had whole threads on the fine-tuning argument too - you're welcome to look them up.

Briefly, the weak anthropic principle applies - life will only find itself on a planet able to support life. The parameters on your list are not as finely tuned as you seem to think, but even if they were, as of 2016, in our galaxy alone (there are around 2 trillion galaxies in the observable universe), there are estimated to be between 800 billion and 3.2 trillion planets, with some estimates placing that number as high as 8 trillion planets, and current estimates are of about 10 billion potentially habitable, Earth-like worlds.

So, even if we assume life is a one-in-a-million chance on a habitable, Earth-like world, we should expect 10,000 planets with life in our galaxy, and at least 20 quadrillion in the universe.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 21, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
It is far beyond mere accusations. The man was a fraud. He was a liar and a loon. If I have time I will dig up some of the refutations of his idiocy.

Tell me this, why did he not do his work properly? Why didn't he run it through peer review?

Evidence that he is definitely a fraud would be welcome, that is if the refutations are based on actual evidence stronger than the evidence he has produced.

Subduction Zone · Aug 21, 2017

Oscarr said:
NOAH’S ARK | Wyatt Archaeological Research

I know that some accuse Wyatt of being a fraud, but I have studied his website and he does provide evidence as good as any others. It would be easier from some religious historians to accuse Wyatt of being a fraud than to have to rewrite their history books. I have seen absolutely no proof given by those who accuse him of being a fraud that the evidence he produces is fake.

Of course you were given evidence that Ron was a fraud. You are simply suffering from cognitive dissonance. Here is a Christian site that points out that he is a fraud:

Ron Wyatt, the "Indiana Jones" of the SDA Church

Now perhaps you do not know enough to know that he is a fraud. But the brass ships valve wheels that he found and called "chariot wheels" were a real hoot!

Subduction Zone · Aug 21, 2017

Oscarr said:
Evidence that he is definitely a fraud would be welcome, that is if the refutations are based on actual evidence stronger than the evidence he has produced.

Please, he did not produce any evidence. When you make such ignorant demands you lose .... well wait, you had no credibility to lose since you started out with a post that indicated that you would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

Once again, if he found all of this stuff why did he not once do his work properly? Why did he not run it through peer review?

His avoiding peer review is evidence enough that he was a fraud.

pitabread · Aug 21, 2017

Oscarr said:
I know that some accuse Wyatt of being a fraud

That's an understatement. Even Answers in Genesis refutes Wyatt's claims that the Ark was found: Has Noah’s Ark Been Found?

Subduction Zone · Aug 21, 2017

Here is one of my favorite pictures from one of the Ron Wyatt sites. It is supposedly an "Egyptian chariot wheel". Anyone that looks at this can clearly see that it is a brass valve wheel from a ship:

http://wyattmuseum.com/chariot-wheels-in-the-red-sea/2011-669#

With "evidence" like that I seriously doubt any supporter of Ron. I sometimes think that they have to be faking it.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 21, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Here is one of my favorite pictures from one of the Ron Wyatt sites. It is supposedly an "Egyptian chariot wheel". Anyone that looks at this can clearly see that it is a brass valve wheel from a ship:

Chariot Wheels in the Red Sea

With "evidence" like that I seriously doubt any supporter of Ron. I sometimes think that they have to be faking it.

I can see clearly that this cannot be from the Exodus because if it was it would be well and truly encrusted with sea life, such as barnacles, etc. It certainly looks as if it was planted there very recently before the photo was taken. But I never saw this photo on Ron Wyatt's website. The ones I saw were heavily encrusted to the point where they were barely recognisable as chariot wheels.

I can believe that there would not be any bones left after all this time. They certainly would have dissolved in the salt water, so any claims for bones remaining from the Red Sea crossing would have to be very suspect.

Has anyone explained the existence of a relatively shallow section of the Gulf where the Israelites might have crossed. I agree that for most of the Gulf it goes very deep, preventing any crossing as described in the Exodus, but there appears to be a section where the sea bed descends at a much lower rate and remains relatively shallow, enabling a crossing to the other side. Has anyone done a study of the sea bed in that area to show that this is not correct?

Subduction Zone · Aug 21, 2017

Oscarr said:
I can see clearly that this cannot be from the Exodus because if it was it would be well and truly encrusted with sea life, such as barnacles, etc. It certainly looks as if it was planted there very recently before the photo was taken. But I never saw this photo on Ron Wyatt's website. The ones I saw were heavily encrusted to the point where they were barely recognisable as chariot wheels.

Even those were clearly not Egyptian.

Ron's technique was to go to a Biblical region, and if he found anything that looked at all vaguely like something that he wanted to find it was a "discovery".

You have yet to answer why Ron could not do any of his work properly. You do realize that that alone tells us that he was a fraud.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 21, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Atheists do not have those failings either. It is much more likely that you do have those failings. That is a typical tactic of those that want to make another side look bad.

Not true. Swearing, porn, wicked thoughts, hate, unforgiveness, are among atheists. You are painting a rose colored picture of them that is simply not true.

You said:
Please, you don't have "Absolute Morality" either. You simply do not realize that.

I hold to the Bible that is the standard for Absolute Morality. Your simply do not realize that God's Word is that standard.

...

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 21, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Even those were clearly not Egyptian.

Ron's technique was to go to a Biblical region, and if he found anything that looked at all vaguely like something that he wanted to find it was a "discovery".

You have yet to answer why Ron could not do any of his work properly. You do realize that that alone tells us that he was a fraud.

I do concede that some of his claims are pretty far-fetched. But they make interesting reading anyhow. I don't believe the one about the blood of Christ. I can't see how blood cannot deteriorate over 2000 years. Jesus was an ordinary human being, so His blood was probably a common group, just like anyone else's. It is not the actual blood that is significant to us. It is the fact that His blood was shed as a sacrifice for sin which makes it significant for us. There are no magical qualities about the blood itself.

I agree that for a "discovery" to be accredited it needs to be subject to a peer review. Has anyone else gone to the areas (the Gulf and Saudi Arabia) where Wyatt said the Exodus and the events at Mt Sinai took place? I see that the Saudi Arabian authorities have fenced off the area to stop people going in there. Other accredited archaelogists would get permission from the authorities to go there with an escort to evaluate the area and make judgments for themselves?

Bible Highlighter · Aug 21, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Even those were clearly not Egyptian.

Ron's technique was to go to a Biblical region, and if he found anything that looked at all vaguely like something that he wanted to find it was a "discovery".

You have yet to answer why Ron could not do any of his work properly. You do realize that that alone tells us that he was a fraud.

Yeah, I believe Ron Wyatt was a fraud. However, even a blind squirrel can get luck and find a nut sometimes. So even frauds can find the real thing. This is what happened with both the Gulf of Aqaba and the Nuweiba beach. Coral in the shape of chariot wheels have been found all along the bottom of the path of the crossing. Also, there is a path inbetween rock (the wilderness shut them in as Scripture says) that led the Israelites to the Red Sea. The point at the Nuweiba beach to the other side (i.e. the crossing of the Red Sea) has a floor bed that rises up higher so the walk across was not like walking down a deep steep drop or anything. In addition, Jabal al-Lawz Mountain in Saudi Arabia is nearby and fits the biblical account to a "T", as well. You have a burned top of the mountain that is not from any normal volcanic eruption. This was from when God burned the top of the mountain as God's Word says. Then, there is a cave in this mountain. Elijah stayed in this cave. Then there is the cleft rock nearby (with water erosion), as well. This also fits the biblical account.

...

Bible Highlighter · Aug 21, 2017

The Bible is also found in the Chinese language, too.

http://students.washington.edu/cbsf/cool/Chinese.swf

Note:
You need to have a flash browser (like flash fox) if you are using a phone or mobile device or you need to have flash installed on your computer to view the above link.

...

AV1611VET · Aug 21, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The Bible is also found in the Chinese language, too.

That's why some people think the Garden of Eden was in China.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

SkyWriting · Aug 21, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
The same sort of fail as in the previous post that tried to substantiate their claim. You are conflating the Bible with the "word of God" when you have shown no reason to assume that it is at all. It would help if you understood the history of the Bible a bit. It did not appear out of nowhere fully written.

There are 50,000 seperate handwritten versions of the scriptures
with no variations on ideas or concepts.
This makes it the most well substantiated text collection in human
history showing no contextual changes over time.
What else would you like to know about it?

Subduction Zone · Aug 21, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Not true. Swearing, porn, wicked thoughts, hate, unforgiveness, are among atheists. You are painting a rose colored picture of them that is simply not true.

Nope, you are just spreading falsehoods again. Swearing comes from Christianity. Porn is consumed massively by Christians, otherwise the industry would die. There are not that many atheists. All the rest sound like you are projecting again. By all measurable means atheists are more "moral" than Christians. A Christian is far more likely to break a law that will end up with him in prison (though this is not exactly fair since atheists tend to be much better educated), they have lower divorce rates, and they probably have lower out of wedlock birthrates and therefore lower abortions (atheists are educated and understand birth control). And at least when it comes to children they are more generous than religious children:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2015/11/05/religion-morality/#5e389fd47aea

Where do you get these crazy ideas from in the first place?

I hold to the Bible that is the standard for Absolute Morality. Your simply do not realize that God's Word is that standard.

But that is not an "Absolute". The morality in the Bible varies quite a bit. And it is not absolute because what is "right" is merely what God says is right. It is not based upon whether something is actually right or not. Is killing innocent children wrong? Not always according to the Bible. Is killing people for no good reason at all okay? Yes, a man could be killed for merely picking up sticks on a superstitious day. Those are not good morals. Is slavery okay? Definitely yes according to the Bible.

My morals beat the Bible's morals any day of the week.

Subduction Zone · Aug 21, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The Bible is also found in the Chinese language, too.

http://students.washington.edu/cbsf/cool/Chinese.swf

Note:
You need to have a flash browser (like flash fox) if you are using a phone or mobile device or you need to have flash installed on your computer to view the above link.

...

Nope, that is desperate grasping at straws:

misunderstandings of biblical proportions | Pinyin News

Subduction Zone · Aug 21, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Yeah, I believe Ron Wyatt was a fraud. However, even a blind squirrel can get luck and find a nut sometimes. So even frauds can find the real thing. This is what happened with both the Gulf of Aqaba and the Nuweiba beach. Coral in the shape of chariot wheels have been found all along the bottom of the path of the crossing. Also, there is a path inbetween rock (the wilderness shut them in as Scripture says) that led the Israelites to the Red Sea. The point at the Nuweiba beach has a floor bed that rises up higher so the walk across was not like walking down a deep steep drop or anything. In addition, Jabal al-Lawz Mountain in Saudi Arabia is nearby and fits the biblical account to a "T", as well. You have a burned top of the mountain that is not from any normal volcanic eruption. This was from when God burned the top of the mountain as God's Word says. Then, there is a cave in this mountain. Elijah stayed in this cave. Then there is the cleft rock nearby (with water erosion), as well. This also fits the biblical account.

...

No, coral in the shape of circles are found. So what? Man uses circles for all sorts of things. Chariot wheels from that time would have returned to dust long long long ago.

And how do you know that the top of Jabal al-Lawz is burnt? I have not seen one whit of evidence that supports that claim. Merely some poorly taken photographs from a long distance away. The only way to know if it is burnt or not would be to go get samples.

You really really should try to learn what is and what is not evidence.

Question about the flood

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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