Question about the Fall

[metherion]

Okay. So, here's something that's been bugging me about a literal Fall that caused everything wrong with the world today.

If I understand it correctly, the Fall only occurred when Humanity went against God's wishes. The first sins, so to say.

BUT! The serpent in the garden was counseling Eve to go against God's wishes. Therefore, the serpent was going against God's wishes. Well, either that or it was God's wish for humanity to sin. So the first sins, the first transgressions against God's will WERE NOT HUMANITY'S! So, if transgressions against God's will could happen in Paradise, why is it all blamed on the humans, if we were not the first? And why could nothing else considered evil (predation, disease, death) by most of those who hold anti-evolution views have happened even though beings could go against God's Will in the Garden?

And if things could go against His Will in the Garden, was it really perfect?
Metherion

 

[a.d.ivNonasNovembres]

It is the serpent's fault.
But the reason creation fell when man sinned was because man had been given guardianship over creation. The devil had no such guardianship over it, when he fell, it was him and his angels alone.

 

[metherion]

But the serpent had still gone against God's will and STILL BEEN IN THE GARDEN.

So could it be a perfect paradise if it is inhabited by creatures with the power to, and a history of, violating God's will?

Metherion

 

[Assyrian]

Wasn't the serpent one of the beasts of the field?

 

[juvenissun]

Somehow, the rebellion of Lucifer on the back of God is the ultimate problem. I think that is the reason that God like to create human, who is very different from angel. Lucifer was in the Garden when God creates it. And God creates the Garden for human. Lucifer could not fight God, but he certainly can beat human on the back of God (in a sense, he won by doing that). However, Lucifer (through the serpent) made human sin, but in fact, he helped to accomplish God's purpose on human. That is why we faithful Christians are here today. Don't forget that Lucifer is still trying very hard to get us. That is why non-Christian is so many more than Christian on the earth.

 

[Assyrian]

"on the back of God"?

 

[juvenissun]

"on the back of God"?

That is my way of description. It may not be a correct one.

God won't allow Satan to do anything without His permission (like said in Book of Job). So, are you suggesting that the test to Eve is approved by God too? I can accept that. So, what you quoted me is a wrong description.

 

[juvenissun]

"on the back of God"?

What I meant is: Satan could not fight God, but his rebellious nature wants to defeat God. This intention makes him try to take us (God's precious creation) away from God. This is a sneaky intention and a sneaky action, even it is known to God after all.

 

[Assyrian]

Just trying to understand the phrase, I haven't come across it before. Do you mean 'behind God's back'?

 

[juvenissun]

Just trying to understand the phrase, I haven't come across it before. Do you mean 'behind God's back'?

Sorry for the semantic dead knot in my mental process.

 

[mark kennedy]

Okay. So, here's something that's been bugging me about a literal Fall that caused everything wrong with the world today.

That's a sweeping generality but I'll see if I can help you with this a little.

If I understand it correctly, the Fall only occurred when Humanity went against God's wishes. The first sins, so to say.

Original sin was a transgression against the commandment of God that 'thou shalt not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. They did not trust God or the desire for this kind of knowledge proved to great. Sin is not just an act, it's the absence of the righteousness that comes from faith. While they were innocent they had not attained the righteousness of God and they only could by trusting the expressed will of God.

BUT! The serpent in the garden was counseling Eve to go against God's wishes. Therefore, the serpent was going against God's wishes. Well, either that or it was God's wish for humanity to sin.

Woah! Stop right there, it was never God's will that Adam and Eve sin.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (James 1:13)

It was always God's will that we be conformed to the likeness of God's righteousness and holiness but that required a willful obedience. It did not surprise God when Adam sinned or when you were saved. The offense of Adam was part of God's permissive will, it was the death of Christ that revealed the righteousness that is by faith.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference (Romans 3:21,22)

So the first sins, the first transgressions against God's will WERE NOT HUMANITY'S!

Dear, you are going to have to work on your theology. When you look at the curses that followed the Serpent's sin was greater and received the greater judgment. Adam and Eve received some pretty serious but not permanent judgments with a remedy still available in the fullness of time. At Calvary the Serpent's skull was crushed and the heal of Christ bruised but the power of sin was broken.

So, if transgressions against God's will could happen in Paradise, why is it all blamed on the humans, if we were not the first? And why could nothing else considered evil (predation, disease, death) by most of those who hold anti-evolution views have happened even though beings could go against God's Will in the Garden?

One can only speculate on what would have followed had Adam and Eve been obedient. A Scottish preacher, in the Book of Lists, was credited for preaching the longest series of sermons on the same topic. The subject was, 'The fall of man, who's fault was it, Adam or Eve'? The conclusion was that it was Adam's because he didn't exercise his authority. Personally I think all Adam had to do was to tell Eve to go back to pruning the trees and tell the Serpent if he didn't like the rules he could talk to the Lord early that evening.

And if things could go against His Will in the Garden, was it really perfect?
Metherion

No dear, that was God's permissive will, His perfect will was expressed in Christ.

Grace and peace,
Mark