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Question about praying to Saints in churches.

St Faustina

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I don't believe Lutheranism is right because I'm a Lutheran. I'm a Lutheran because I believe Lutheranism is right. I arrived at that conclusion after a very long study of theology and Church tradition. I'm a Lutheran because I believe, by evidence, that it upholds the historical doctrines of the earliest Church and Church Fathers. That doesn't mean I believe whatever Lutheranism teaches is right just because Lutheranism teaches it. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I don't think you've really addressed my point, though.


I don't understand. I converted to Catholicism because the evidence and Holy Spirit led me to arrive at the conclusion that ALL of it's doctrines are true. That it teaches NO false doctrine. That it possesses the fullness of Truth and will guide me on the path to Heaven (by the Grace of God).

I thought all christians believed that about their own church. If you believe that Lutheranism upholds the historical doctrines of the ECF than you would not question praying to the Saints (see below).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).


Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).


Hilary of Poitiers

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).


The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).



Gregory of Nyssa


"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom


"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan


"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome


"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

St Augustine


"
A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).



 
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Charlie7399

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I don't understand. I converted to Catholicism because the evidence and Holy Spirit led me to arrive at the conclusion that ALL of it's doctrines are true. That it teaches NO false doctrine. That it possesses the fullness of Truth and will guide me on the path to Heaven (by the Grace of God).

I thought all christians believed that about their own church. If you believe that Lutheranism upholds the historical doctrines of the ECF than you would not question praying to the Saints (see below).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).


Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).


Hilary of Poitiers

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).


The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).



Gregory of Nyssa


"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom


"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan


"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome


"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

St Augustine


"
A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).



None of them earlier than the 4th century. Since we know that the Fathers are not infallible, what evidence do we have that this doctrine is truly divine and not man-made (other than, for you, Holy Tradition)? That's the whole point of this thread.
 
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Charlie7399

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I stress the point about the Church Fathers to show that our doctrines are not "new" or "invented". The earlier the Father, the more likely it is that his doctrine is sound, since he is closer to the Apostles. Therefore, they should be studied when intepreting Scripture. That is why we don't deny infant baptism, for example. This doesn't mean that everything the Fathers say should be accepted, since they were fallible men like you and me.
 
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Albion

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Well you believe your church teachings are always right don't you? You believe Lutheranism teaches the correct doctrine and possesses the fullness of truth otherwise you would not be a Lutheran. You would not entrust your soul to a church that teaches false doctrines and neither would Catholics.

Otherwise what would be the point, we are talking about where our soul will spends eternity so who wants to mess with that...we all want to get it right. Of course you believe your church is always right when it comes to it's doctrine just as an Anglican believes their church is right and just as a Methodist believes it's doctrines are always right.

But we don't believe we're right (if we are) merely because we subscribe to some theory that says we cannot be wrong.

We do refer to God's word for the guidance. There is, after all, nothing that logically would be more reliable than the Almighty's revelation.

We can misunderstand it, of course, once we have it, and we are willing to say that's possible. But that's the failing of sinful men. It's not because of any inadequacy or unreliability with Scripture.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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There is ample evidence they can hear our prayers in the life of the Orthodox Church. Christ has one body, and all christians dead or alive are members of that one body. There really is nothing separating us.
I mentioned Saint Nectarios earlier, and one of the things I noticed while visiting Mt Athos here in Greece was the large numbers of pilgrims coming from Romania. This is due to a recent miracle of St Nectarios in 2009. A village in Romania had been without a priest for many years. Despite their requests to the Bishop, he had no priests available to send to them. One day, however, a priest showed up, despite them having been told no priest would be sent. This priest performed funeral services for all those who had died in the absence of a priest, married those who had been living as husband and wife despite not being able to marry, baptised all those who had been born since they last had a priest, heard their confessions and served the Divine Liturgy so that they could all receive Holy Communion. After this he told them that he was leaving. They were very upset that he would not be staying but when they understood they could not convince him otherwise, they gave thanks to God for the short time he was able to serve their community. They wrote a letter to the bishop thanking him for sending the priest but also requesting that another could come and stay permanently. The bishop was very surprised as he had not in fact sent a priest and was also concerned as an unknown priest had served in his jurisdiction without his authority, so he asked who the priest was. They answered that they did not know his name, as although he wrote all their certificates (baptismal and marriage) in Romanian, he signed his name in another script which they could not read. When one of them was brought to the bishop, he recognised that it was in Greek and read "Nectarios, Bishop of Pentapolis". When he went to the island of Aegina in Greece where St Nectarios' relics remain, at the monastery he established, he confirmed that it was indeed his signature.
This happened in 2009. St Nectarios died in 1920.

Wow! Do you really expect me to believe that a priest just came to a village and none of the villagers ever cared to ask his name or to verify his authority? Wow! Sounds like a pretty made up story.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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I don't understand. I converted to Catholicism because the evidence and Holy Spirit led me to arrive at the conclusion that ALL of it's doctrines are true. That it teaches NO false doctrine. That it possesses the fullness of Truth and will guide me on the path to Heaven (by the Grace of God).

I thought all christians believed that about their own church. If you believe that Lutheranism upholds the historical doctrines of the ECF than you would not question praying to the Saints (see below).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).


Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).


Hilary of Poitiers

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).


The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).



Gregory of Nyssa


"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom


"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan


"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome


"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

St Augustine


"
A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).



Hmm... It's funny how none of that is in the Bible. Why do you guide yourself by the sayings of fallible men like those, rather than the infallible Word of God?

ADDENDUM: I am a Baptist because I have confirmed the truthfulness and accuracy of all Baptist doctrines. I believe that all Catholic doctrines which differ from their Baptist counterparts are unbiblical and incorrect. Read the Bible and find it out for yourself.
 
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Hmm... It's funny how none of that is in the Bible. Why do you guide yourself by the sayings of fallible men like those, rather than the infallible Word of God?

Not everything has to be in the Bible, the idea that you espouse is a man made idea.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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Not everything has to be in the Bible, the idea that you espouse is a man made idea.

Er... Actually, it does — especially if rejection of that idea has led to contradictions. It was by rejecting that idea that your church was led into countless falsities, has contradicted itself many times, and currently contradicts the Bible in numerous aspects.
 
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Charlie7399

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Not everything has to be in the Bible, the idea that you espouse is a man made idea.

How many more times do I have to say that we are discussing this from a purely biblical standpoint, regardless of anyone's beliefs about Tradition? I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss Tradition, only that it's not the point here.
 
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Er... Actually, it does — especially if rejection of that idea has led to contradictions. It was by rejecting that idea that your church was led into countless falsities, has contradicted itself many times, and currently contradicts the Bible in numerous aspects.

First I am not Catholic, second actually it doesn't. There is no where in the Bible that says everything must be from there and if it is not it is no good. It is man that says everything must be in the Bible, it is God who says to remember Tradition and Writing and God who said the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth
 
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How many more times do I have to say that we are discussing this from a purely biblical standpoint, regardless of anyone's beliefs about Tradition? I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss Tradition, only that it's not the point here.

Doesn't matter
 
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Well, I hope nobody ever gives you a train to pilot, since you're so fond of derailing stuff.

It was derailed long before came along bucko and what's it to you, it ain't your thread all your doing is butting in.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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First I am not Catholic,

Who said you were?

second actually it doesn't. There is no where in the Bible that says everything must be from there and if it is not it is no good. It is man that says everything must be in the Bible, it is God who says to remember Tradition and Writing and God who said the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth

(sigh) That issue has already been addressed. Please see posts #65, #121, #122, #132 and #133.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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You, you keep implying you know my Church you do not so stop acting like it

Granted, I did assume you were Catholic. However, do you think I lose my point if your church is really not the Catholic Church, but rather another following similar principles? And, if so, do you want to tell me which church you belong to, so that you may prove to me that it is biblical?


OK. I have shown you where to find counter-arguments; if you are so closed-minded so as to refuse to read opposing viewpoints, what shall I do?
 
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Granted, I did assume you were Catholic. However, do you think I lose my point if your church is really not the Catholic Church, but rather another following similar principles? And, if so, do you want to tell me which church you belong to, so that you may prove to me that it is biblical?

I belong to a convergence Church that follows Traditional Christianity in the Anglican form.

OK. I have shown you where to find counter-arguments; if you are so closed-minded so as to refuse to read opposing viewpoints, what shall I do?

Give better because those are not proofs at all.
 
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