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1. People die, but this does not turn them into dead people. Rather they are translated from death to life. Not one dead remains in the tomb.
2. As to David and his son, this was before Christ defeated death.
Your dead reformed religion is no match for the most high Lord of hosts, the living God of Israel. Your false god cowers and is broken beneath the might of Christ's Resurrection.
The "when" comes with power on this age.1. The resurrection has not yet happened for the Church. All those who have died in Christ are still physically dead and you and I cannot converse with them any more than we can converse with a stone.
It's relevant because it's a clue-in. In here you build the logic, you are saying we are not told to pray to them but here in this verse it shows them holding it. So logic says, based on how the verse describes it, and the past verses that talk about Christians praying for each other and the verses that state that the spirit in heaven isn't regarded as dead therefore it concludes that the only way they got those prayers is because they were approached to first for the sake of delivering it.Again, the way the prayers got in their hands is not relevant because we are still not told to pray to them. I rest my case.
The fact that they are holding prayers that are traveling to God. You already answered it, you read that they are only messengers, relaying to God what you prayed to him.. that is intercession.Where does the text say these elders are interceding for you? From what I read, they are only messengers, relaying to God what you prayed to him.
So then what are they? All servants of God are regarded as saints, and here you are again doing nothing but statements with out giving out any reason behind it.The fact that ‘they are given a human term in a setting that is heaven while the other heavenly beings are given their actual term’ does not automatically mean that they are saints.
Doesn't matter if there are more than 24, you still see the process of intercession of people in heaven.Not the same people. There are many more than 24 saints in Heaven, and yet only 24 do this? Weird… Perhaps they're not even saints, since they are not called saints.
Does the Bible say anything else? I hope you won't suggest the elders are animals.Where does the Bible say that only humans and angels can be in Heaven with God?
Then how did they manage to hold it? Oh, i see.. when it comes to explaining the logic holes in your argument, it's now irrelevant.Still doesn't say we can pray to them. The text nowhere says that these prayers were given directly to them by us, or that these are the prayers we made to them. Nowhere does it say that these are the same prayers you pray to your saints.
Because again how did they get it. Golden bowls carrying incense which are the prayers of the saints/gods people.. why are they holding it if they don't know what's in it? Do you apply any form of sense in your replies?That does not answer my question. How can you know for sure that they can know what we have prayed to God?
I am giving reasons and you are just giving statements. You are throwing everything you can but fail to even explain who are these elders and why/how they are holding the prayers? You are just going "no.. they are not.. no.. that's irrelevant" but no where do you even make any case as to who they actually are and how they are actually doing what they are doing, nowhere. You have no logical reasoning nor any valid answer to come up with to show how I am wrong with these verse all you can do is make empty statements.No, you are poorly reasoning out of it, insisting for no reason that these elders are saints, insisting for no reason that these are the same prayers you pray to them, insisting for no reason that their number is irrelevant, and insisting for no reason that, in order for these prayers to get to God, you have to pray to the saints directly, so that God will not play boomerang with the prayers. You are adding to the text what it never says. What we can know for sure is that it is biblically never suggested that we can or should pray to saints.
Meaning the standard definition of a religious belief. All religions are defined on the elements they believe in, Islam believes in Allah and the prophet Mohammad... Christianity is a religion in where people believe God manifested in the Flesh as Jesus, and is Trinity in being. You trying to put this on the topic of salvation shows you really have bad reading comprehension and this is telling me that you are Keltoi alt. The only poster i know who can't make any rationalized arguments or in context replies in this forum .What is a Christian in the academical sense? Is it the same as a true Christian? Where does it say that? Where does the Bible say that you need to accept the Trinity to be a Christian and go to Heaven?
It's not irrelevant, you are replying very unintelligently now. Spiritual life is a very big deal in this argument because it is the basis of what the practice of asking Saints in heaven to pray is based on.You keep bringing up something that has nothing to do with the issue at hand: spiritual life. Again, that is irrelevant here. I rest my case.
Unintelligent reply yet again. You are keltoi and you are blocked. I don't reply to people who f argue with empty statements just to waste my time, and respond to far off contexts and bad comprehension to my posts.In that verse, Paul asks the readers to pray for him. Where does he ask them to pray to him?
There is a vast difference between a god (demi- or otherwise) and angels. Angels are not omnipresent or omniscient nor do they partake of any of the unique attributes of divinity such as these. Demigod, OTOH, do possess some of the divine attributes. In the case of your Saints, they must be omnipresent and omniscient in order to hear and respond to all the prayers addressed simultaneously to them.
From his last post before this, I think he is one of those christians who believe that the resurrection of the dead happens only in the Second Coming.The "when" comes with power on this age.
So what do you make of this passage in Matthew 27?1. The resurrection has not yet happened for the Church. All those who have died in Christ are still physically dead and you and I cannot converse with them any more than we can converse with a stone.
Dude, think of this way. Us humans can actually listen,hear,see various things from around the world, in multiple ways, and in seconds just from the technology we managed to build. If humans on earth are able to give themselves the ability to know, hear, etc etc in different parts of the world in multiple ways just by relying on themselves, then what more for the people in heaven who now have instant reliability to God?
You guys believe the demons have this capability in some way. How else can you teach that Satan causes man to sin, when there are billions of people around the world through out time. If he is not able to tempt all of them, then he isn't man's actual problem. But for some reason he is the one leading all man astray, how come he has this ability yet people of God are that limited that they can't even pray for others on earth?
You can read it in Luke 15:7 that they are able to know what goes on here.
I am unable to simultanteously comprehend three conversations in the same room, much less tens of thousands around the world, so it is still impossible for any human to do so.
Even though I do think we are talking about divinity, what makes you think that multi-location/multi-presence is a divine attribute? Remember we are not talking about omnipresence; we are talking only about multi-presence.Now, if you up the human to being a demi-god, then I suppose almost anything might be possible, except having all of the attributes of a god.
From his last post before this, I think he is one of those christians who believe that the resurrection of the dead happens only in the Second Coming.
There are some protestants who believe that the dead will not rise (spiritually included) until the Second coming of Jesus... I may be wrong on how i understood his beliefs, but if that is where his argument is based on then there is really nothing to argue about, his view on it is respected due to the differences we believe in regards to when eternal life happens.
So what do you make of this passage in Matthew 27?
And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
So you think if you can't do something, it is impossible for humans to do that thing.
Around these parts we call that pride.
Even though I do think we are talking about divinity, what makes you think that multi-location/multi-presence is a divine attribute? Remember we are not talking about omnipresence; we are talking only about multi-presence.
Oh, we could rig that up with today's science.If I were to think that if I could bear a child, would probably be called delusion or insanity no matter how much I wished to believe it to be so.
Atypical, yes. Superhuman? yet to be proven.It is assuredly a super-human attribute to be in more than one place at the same time.
That doesn't follow.It is an attribute of being a god.
There are also bird gods in the Egyptian pantheons. Does that make bird-likeness a superhuman divine attribute?There are gods who possess that very attribute, as in the pantheon of Hinduism.
Your assumption.The resurrection of these individuals was not followed by ascension into heaven
Another assumption.and, given the fact, that none of these individuals is still alive
The experience of the Church over the last 2000 years says they are very much alive.I think we can safely say that they did subsequently die and their bodies are now awaiting the final resurrection.
It's relevant because it's a clue-in. In here you build the logic, you are saying we are not told to pray to them but here in this verse it shows them holding it. So logic says, based on how the verse describes it, and the past verses that talk about Christians praying for each other and the verses that state that the spirit in heaven isn't regarded as dead therefore it concludes that the only way they got those prayers is because they were approached to first for the sake of delivering it.
Logic goes, the only way these saints in heaven managed to hold these prayers in their bowls is because it was given to them. So it's relevant, stop blocking your common sense because you have no way to argue back.
The fact that they are holding prayers that are traveling to God. You already answered it, you read that they are only messengers, relaying to God what you prayed to him.. that is intercession.
So then what are they?
All servants of God are regarded as saints, and here you are again doing nothing but statements with out giving out any reason behind it.
Doesn't matter if there are more than 24, you still see the process of intercession of people in heaven.
Does the Bible say anything else? I hope you won't suggest the elders are animals.
Then how did they manage to hold it? Oh, i see.. when it comes to explaining the logic holes in your argument, it's now irrelevant.
Because again how did they get it. Golden bowls carrying incense which are the prayers of the saints/gods people.. why are they holding it if they don't know what's in it? Do you apply any form of sense in your replies?
Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
You can see in this verse that they are very much aware of what happens on earth. How would they know about a sinner who has repented?
I am giving reasons and you are just giving statements. You are throwing everything you can but fail to even explain who are these elders and why/how they are holding the prayers? You are just going "no.. they are not.. no.. that's irrelevant" but no where do you even make any case as to who they actually are and how they are actually doing what they are doing, nowhere. You have no logical reasoning nor any valid answer to come up with to show how I am wrong with these verse all you can do is make empty statements.
Meaning the standard definition of a religious belief. All religions are defined on the elements they believe in, Islam believes in Allah and the prophet Mohammad... Christianity is a religion in where people believe God manifested in the Flesh as Jesus, and is Trinity in being. You trying to put this on the topic of salvation shows you really have bad reading comprehension and this is telling me that you are Keltoi alt. The only poster i know who can't make any rationalized arguments or in context replies in this forum .
It's not irrelevant, you are replying very unintelligently now. Spiritual life is a very big deal in this argument because it is the basis of what the practice of asking Saints in heaven to pray is based on.
Unintelligent reply yet again. You are keltoi and you are blocked. I don't reply to people who f argue with empty statements just to waste my time, and respond to far off contexts and bad comprehension to my posts.
I am unsure as to who "you guys" are. Perhaps you could be more specific. I, myself, have never made any such claims concerning demons or Satan.
We are discussing deceased Christians, not angels, demons, or Satan, so please stay on topic.
I am unable to simultanteously comprehend three conversations in the same room, much less tens of thousands around the world, so it is still impossible for any human to do so. Now, if you up the human to being a demi-god, then I suppose almost anything might be possible, except having all of the attributes of a god.
Oh, we could rig that up with today's science.
Atypical, yes. Superhuman? yet to be proven.
That doesn't follow.
There are also bird gods in the Egyptian pantheons. Does that make bird-likeness a superhuman divine attribute?
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