Question about praying to Mary

[The Liturgist]

Which is why believing in the Trinity is part of the Nyssian Creed and a requirement for posting in the Christian's only section. Whereas believing in praying to anyone else besides God, Mary being the immaculate conception, a perpetual virgin and the queen of heaven isn't.

Firstly, its called the Nicene Creed, or to be more precise, the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381, as it is a “version 2.0” revised at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople to exclude semi-Arians, Apollinarians, and Pneumatomacchians (who denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit; the original version of the Nicene Creed only required one to confess the existence of the Holy Spirit, and not that He is the Lord, the Giver of Life, who Proceeds from the Father and together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified). The revised creed, because of Apollinarian Chiliasm, also declares of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ that “His Kingdom shall have no end.”

Secondly, the Orthodox do not believe in the immaculate conception or call the Blessed Virgin Mary the Queen of Heaven, but we do venerate her and ask for her intercession. Since I began to seek the intercession of the Mother of God, my prayer life has become so much richer, because she is such a loving human being, and extremely humble, always pointing the way to her Son rather than basking in the spotlight (this is an easy way to separate true and false Marian apparitions, false ones like “Our Lady of Amsterdam” or the “Gospa” in Medjugorge will behave in a manner which can seem threatening, and which does not focus attention on our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Thirdly, concerning the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of God, this was believed in by Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and John Wesley, among numerous other Protestant reformers and church leaders.

 

[The Liturgist]

And praying to souls in heaven, is not something found in original ancient Church doctrine. It became a practice centuries later.

That statement is impossible to prove. All we can say is that this practice existed without criticism in the fourth and fifth century, and when the Iconoclasts sought to suppress it in the eighth century, the Second Council of Nicaea opposed them in 787, and when St. Irene became Empress in 843 and enforced the decisions of the Second Council of Nicaea, there was much rejoicing, and to this day the Eastern Orthodox celebrate this on the first Sunday of Orthodoxy.

 

[The Liturgist]

So then why go to Mary and the saints in prayer, instead of going to the Lord in prayer?

There is no “instead of.” When we seek the intercession of the saints, it is part of our prayers to God.

 

[Ceallaigh]

There is no “instead of.” When we seek the intercession of the saints, it is part of our prayers to God.

Who taught that practice to Christians? Jesus? The Apostles? The Apostolic Fathers? Why be in the practice of doing something that was never taught by God through any of them?

We have clear NT demonstration of how we are supposed to pray. And clear statements about how Jesus and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.

Where are Christians ever taught to seek the intercession of the spirits of deceased saints, as part of our prayers to God?

 

[Ceallaigh]

That statement is impossible to prove. All we can say is that this practice existed without criticism in the fourth and fifth century, and when the Iconoclasts sought to suppress it in the eighth century, the Second Council of Nicaea opposed them in 787, and when St. Irene became Empress in 843 and enforced the decisions of the Second Council of Nicaea, there was much rejoicing, and to this day the Eastern Orthodox celebrate this on the first Sunday of Orthodoxy.

We both know it was never taught by God through his incarnation as Jesus, or through his apostles or even through the apostolic fathers. And that it is strictly a matter of dogma and tradition. If that's what Christians want to do, that's up to them. But when asked why they do it, the honest answer should be, "because dogma and tradition taught us to".

 

[Ceallaigh]

Firstly, its called the Nicene Creed

I know, that was a typo.

, or to be more precise, the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381, as it is a “version 2.0” revised at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople to exclude semi-Arians, Apollinarians, and Pneumatomacchians (who denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit; the original version of the Nicene Creed only required one to confess the existence of the Holy Spirit, and not that He is the Lord, the Giver of Life, who Proceeds from the Father and together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified). The revised creed, because of Apollinarian Chiliasm, also declares of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ that “His Kingdom shall have no end.”

Which all has a great deal of scriptural support. Matthew 28:19 alone makes it clear from Jusus himself that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are synonymous.

Secondly, the Orthodox do not believe in the immaculate conception or call the Blessed Virgin Mary the Queen of Heaven, but we do venerate her and ask for her intercession. Since I began to seek the intercession of the Mother of God, my prayer life has become so much richer, because she is such a loving human being, and extremely humble, always pointing the way to her Son rather than basking in the spotlight (this is an easy way to separate true and false Marian apparitions, false ones like “Our Lady of Amsterdam” or the “Gospa” in Medjugorge will behave in a manner which can seem threatening, and which does not focus attention on our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Praying to the spirit of Mary and seeking intercession from her, is purely a product of completely unscriptural dogma and tradition. Even if I believed in the practice, I would have to be honest and admit that.

Thirdly, concerning the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of God, this was believed in by Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and John Wesley, among numerous other Protestant reformers and church leaders.

But who taught that belief? Jesus? His apostles? Is there a single apostolic father who taught it? Or even a single 1st or 2nd century church father, theologian, teacher or evangelist who taught it?

 

[The Liturgist]

Which all has a great deal of scriptural support. Matthew 28:19 alone makes it clear from Jusus himself that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are synonymous.

Forgive me, but the three prosopa (persons) of the Trinity, while coequal, coeternal and consubstantial, are not synonymous. Each prosopon is hypostatically and personally distinct from the other two. And the person of Jesus Christ is hypostatically united to both the human and divine nature, hence the Patristic references to him as Theanthropos.

Praying to the spirit of Mary

We don’t pray to her spirit, since she was assumed into Heaven bodily on the occasion of her death, like Moses. This is commemorated on August 15th, the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos. Also, it is conceivable that we do not pray to any spirits at all, since the World to Come is eternal, it is entirely possible that the saints we pray to are in what we would regard as the distant future, having been resurrected bodily.

and seeking intercession from her, is purely a product of completely unscriptural dogma and tradition. Even if I believed in the practice, I would have to be honest and admit that.

So what? There is a vast array of important dogma that is not explicitly defined in Scripture (although the Intercession of the Saints is, see 2 Maccabees 15:14+17).

But who taught that belief? Jesus? His apostles? Is there a single apostolic father who taught it? Or even a single 1st or 2nd century church father, theologian, teacher or evangelist who taught it?

Yes. Indeed there are several, and the Protoevangelion of James, which is a biography of the early life of the Theotokos, dates from the first or second century, and entirely agrees with Orthodox doctrine concerning her.

Additionally, we have the most important ante-Nicene theologian, Origen, teaching this doctrine, and the most important Nicene theologian, St. Athanasius of Alexandria, who as Protodeacon to St. Alexander the Bishop of Alexandria, was essential in defeating Arianism and getting the Nicene Creed adopted at the First Ecumenical Council. His book On the Incarnation is the basis for understanding the Incarnation of the Logos in the person of Jesus Christ. And as Bishop of Alexandria, he finalized the 27-book New Testament canon we use today. The importance of St. Athanasius cannot be overstated; St. Gregory the Theologian said of him that the name Athanasius had become synonymous with virtue, and he is called The Pillar of Orthodoxy. So where St. Athanasius agrees with Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley, I would say arguing against their position is entirely untenable, since it means arguing against the defender of the doctrine of the Incarnation against Arianism and the editor of the New Testament, and arguing against the three most important leaders of the Protestant Reformation, and also arguing against the founder of Methodism and the most important Anglican of the 18th century.

However, even more support exists for this doctrine. We have St. Hilary of Poitiers, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Epiphanius of Salamis, St. Jerome, St. Cyril the Great, St. Didymus the Blind, Eusebius of Caesarea, who is the most important historian of the Early Church, and countless others.

 

[The Liturgist]

We both know it was never taught by God through his incarnation as Jesus,

Speak for yourself. The concept of the intercession of saints predates the New Testament, as demonstrated by 2 Maccabees 15:14-17, 1 Enoch, and indeed the Psalms and the canticle Benedicite Omni Opera from the longer, superior version of the Book of Daniel.

Also, Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, and the faith of the early church, upheld by the Council of Chalcedon, the Council of Ephesus, and thus the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Protestants, and also by the Assyrian Church of the East despite Nestorian influences, is that the humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ are united without change, confusion, separation or division. I hope we can agree that the Incarnation is not something that ended. My concern is the unusual phraseology you used, which is awkward and suggests a number of things we don’t want to suggest.

 

[The Liturgist]

Who taught that practice to Christians? Jesus? The Apostles? The Apostolic Fathers? Why be in the practice of doing something that was never taught by God through any of them?

We have clear NT demonstration of how we are supposed to pray. And clear statements about how Jesus and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.

Where are Christians ever taught to seek the intercession of the spirits of deceased saints, as part of our prayers to God?

Forgive me, but I don’t see the relevance of any of those questions to your earlier claim that we pray to saints instead of praying to God, which is not true.

And concerning the Lord’s Prayer, the Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglo Catholics and Assyrians, basically, those who seek the intercession of the saints, probably pray it more than anyone else, since it is part of the opening of all Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican and Assyrian services, and is prayed by Catholics as part of the Rosary, in addition to appearing in the Eucharistic Liturgy of all the aforementioned churches, usually right after the Consecration.

 

[BobRyan]

Flavius Josephus was not a Christian,

And the OT was not written by NT Christians.

I think we all agree on that point.

Jews were the authors and custodians of the OT text read in Luke 24 by Christ and the disciples - this is irrefutable.

and thus his writings have no authority over Christianity.

Just as NT Christians had no custodian role over OT Jewish texts.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Forgive me, but the three prosopa (persons) of the Trinity, while coequal, coeternal and consubstantial, are not synonymous. Each prosopon is hypostatically and personally distinct from the other two. And the person of Jesus Christ is hypostatically united to both the human and divine nature, hence the Patristic references to him as Theanthropos.

You need to look at the list of synonyms for the word synonymous.

We don’t pray to her spirit, since she was assumed into Heaven bodily on the occasion of her death, like Moses. This is commemorated on August 15th, the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos. Also, it is conceivable that we do not pray to any spirits at all, since the World to Come is eternal, it is entirely possible that the saints we pray to are in what we would regard as the distant future, having been resurrected bodily.

Nonetheless there's absolutely no instruction whatsoever for it.

So what? There is a vast array of important dogma that is not explicitly defined in Scripture (although the Intercession of the Saints is, see 2 Maccabees 15:14+17).

I'm familiar with it, because apparently it's the key proof text. And it's described as "a dream, a sort of vision" according to 2 Maccabees 15:11.

Yes. Indeed there are several, and the Protoevangelion of James, which is a biography of the early life of the Theotokos, dates from the first or second century, and entirely agrees with Orthodox doctrine concerning her.

A second-century infancy gospel. Do you see as I do how much reaching is required?
One shouldn't have to look to obscure minor sources to support a primary theology.

Additionally, we have the most important ante-Nicene theologian, Origen, teaching this doctrine, and the most important Nicene theologian, St. Athanasius of Alexandria, who as Protodeacon to St. Alexander the Bishop of Alexandria, was essential in defeating Arianism and getting the Nicene Creed adopted at the First Ecumenical Council. His book On the Incarnation is the basis for understanding the Incarnation of the Logos in the person of Jesus Christ. And as Bishop of Alexandria, he finalized the 27-book New Testament canon we use today. The importance of St. Athanasius cannot be overstated; St. Gregory the Theologian said of him that the name Athanasius had become synonymous with virtue, and he is called The Pillar of Orthodoxy. So where St. Athanasius agrees with Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley, I would say arguing against their position is entirely untenable, since it means arguing against the defender of the doctrine of the Incarnation against Arianism and the editor of the New Testament, and arguing against the three most important leaders of the Protestant Reformation, and also arguing against the founder of Methodism and the most important Anglican of the 18th century.

I'm not seeing anything about intercessory prayer to Mary in that. Do you have a quote from one of them saying to go to Mary in prayer as an intercessor, with scripture to back it up?

However, even more support exists for this doctrine. We have St. Hilary of Poitiers, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Epiphanius of Salamis, St. Jerome, St. Cyril the Great, St. Didymus the Blind, Eusebius of Caesarea, who is the most important historian of the Early Church, and countless others.

There's no argument that the doctrine exists. But it exists as a matter of dogma and tradition, rather than being instructed from scripture or even the first fathers.

Why is it so hard to admit that it's clearly a product of dogma and tradition?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Speak for yourself. The concept of the intercession of saints predates the New Testament, as demonstrated by 2 Maccabees 15:14-17, 1 Enoch, and indeed the Psalms and the canticle Benedicite Omni Opera from the longer, superior version of the Book of Daniel.

Also, Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, and the faith of the early church, upheld by the Council of Chalcedon, the Council of Ephesus, and thus the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Protestants, and also by the Assyrian Church of the East despite Nestorian influences, is that the humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ are united without change, confusion, separation or division. I hope we can agree that the Incarnation is not something that ended. My concern is the unusual phraseology you used, which is awkward and suggests a number of things we don’t want to suggest.

"a dream, a sort of vision" 2 Maccabees 15:11. Most of the rest of that again doesn't display any direct instruction from God to pray to Mary. I've already gone though all of this with Roman Catholics because it's apparently a scripted apologetic. This seems to be the best anyone can come up with and it's mainly based on anecdotal evidence and eisegesis of apocrypha and Psalms 103.

"The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. 20 Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!" Psalms 103:19-20

That is supposed to be seen as clear instruction to pray to Mary and saints who died on a regular/daily basis. And not just pray to them but to also kneel down in front of their statues while doing so.

Dogma and tradition.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Forgive me, but I don’t see the relevance of any of those questions to your earlier claim that we pray to saints instead of praying to God, which is not true.

Mariology is quite multifaceted as you know. How is praying to Mary and saints not praying to her and them instead of God? You're either praying to them or to God. That doesn't mean I'm saying that there's no praying to God at all. But there's nothing theologically solid about going to anyone else in prayer except for God.

And concerning the Lord’s Prayer, the Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglo Catholics and Assyrians, basically, those who seek the intercession of the saints, probably pray it more than anyone else, since it is part of the opening of all Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican and Assyrian services, and is prayed by Catholics as part of the Rosary, in addition to appearing in the Eucharistic Liturgy of all the aforementioned churches, usually right after the Consecration.

It's not just the Lord’s Prayer. It's every single example of prayer being given in scripture. All instances of prayer in scripture is directed to God alone. The only verse I've ever seen anyone come up with to try countering that fact is Psalm 103:19.

 

[BobRyan]

You need to look at the list of synonyms for the word synonymous.

Nonetheless there's absolutely no instruction whatsoever for it.

I'm familiar with it, because apparently it's the key proof text. And it's described as "a dream, a sort of vision" according to 2 Maccabees 15:11.

A second-century infancy gospel. Do you see as I do how much reaching is required?
One shouldn't have to look to obscure minor sources to support a primary theology.

I'm not seeing anything about intercessory prayer to Mary in that. Do you have a quote from one of them saying to go to Mary in prayer as an intercessor, with scripture to back it up?

There's no argument that the doctrine exists. But it exists as a matter of dogma and tradition, rather than being instructed from scripture or even the first fathers.

Why is it so hard to admit that it's clearly a product of dogma and tradition?

Good attention to detail. Thanks for posting that.

 

[BobRyan]

"a dream, a sort of vision" 2 Maccabees 15:11. Most of the rest of that again doesn't display any direct instruction from God to pray to Mary.

True -- one person claims to have a dream about a former priest who then prays IN that dream by someone else - and then there APPEARS in that dream Jeremiah with some discussion. An apocryphal text about a dream that someone saw it is not an apocryphal text that commands people to pray to the dead or to pray to mary.

It is very important that they use this - since it is proof that they don't have an example where people who are awake and not dreaming are being told to pray to the dead or where some Bible writer is praying to the dead as if this is a good thing to do.

"The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. 20 Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!" Psalms 103:19-20

That is supposed to be seen as clear instruction to pray to Mary and saints who died

given that they call this "praying to the DEAD" or in some cases "to DEAD saints" -- you would think they would need something less ambiguous to that point they want to make.

 

[BobRyan]

Speak for yourself. The concept of the intercession of saints predates the New Testament, as demonstrated by 2 Maccabees 15:14-17

Your 2 Macc 15 chapter only shows that dreams about people who had died are a part of real life prior to the NT and I myself can attest to having a dream about a loved one who had recently passed away. That is reality but it is not a command from God to pray to the dead.

 

[BeyondET]

Who taught that practice to Christians? Jesus? The Apostles? The Apostolic Fathers? Why be in the practice of doing something that was never taught by God through any of them?

We have clear NT demonstration of how we are supposed to pray. And clear statements about how Jesus and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.

Where are Christians ever taught to seek the intercession of the spirits of deceased saints, as part of our prayers to God?

It's derived from the wedding in Cana. Basically Mary asked for more wine so the notion is she had compassion for the people which is nonsense, she wanted the reception to go smoothly everyone have a good time.

 

[Ceallaigh]

It's derived from the wedding in Cana. Basically Mary asked for more wine so the notion is she had compassion for the people which is nonsense, she wanted the reception to go smoothly everyone have a good time.

More eisegesis.

 

[BobRyan]

It's derived from the wedding in Cana. Basically Mary asked for more wine so the notion is she had compassion for the people which is nonsense, she wanted the reception to go smoothly everyone have a good time.

Nobody at the wedding feast was praying to the dead.
Eph 6 has Paul asking for his contemporaries to pray for him. No example there of prayers to the dead either.

Even if one says that they suggest believing a tradition story where Mary was assumed into heaven, there is no example in scripture where Enoch, Elijah, Moses are prayed to by a living person on Earth. If your claim is that Mary was resurrected then bodily assumed into heaven and then she appeared to someone and that someone asked her a question or asked her to pray for them -- then fine let's have that discussion but that is not what we see with most cases in reference to their praying to Mary.

 

[BeyondET]

Nobody at the wedding feast was praying to the dead.
Eph 6 has Paul asking for his contemporaries to pray for him. No example there of prayers to the dead either.

Even if one says that they suggest believing a tradition story where Mary was assumed into heaven, there is no example in scripture where Enoch, Elijah, Moses are prayed to by a living person on Earth. If your claim is that Mary was resurrected then bodily assumed into heaven and then she appeared to someone and that someone asked her a question or asked her to pray for them -- then fine let's have that discussion but that is not what we see with most cases in reference to their praying to Mary.

You totally didn't understand what I said.

Of coarse no one prayed to the dead at the wedding where did you get that idea.

It is nonsense did you read that part before saying if my claim is Mary resurrected what is that and where did that come from?