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Question about Once Saved Always Saved

ALoveDivine

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You completely dodged the question. Let me ask you again.

Why did Christ die? Was his death necessary for salvation? If so why? If so, how?

I did not ask you how you think a person gets to heaven. You've made your opinion on that clear. I asked you why did Christ have to die on the cross?
 
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ALoveDivine

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I graduated from kindergarden many decades ago ... please find someone else.
So you are not going to answer the question? You have no answer to the question that is the quintessential cornerstone of the Christian faith?

And ah yes, insults. The last refuge of a man with no evidence and no argument. I've been cordial to you this whole time, yet you incessantly seek to denigrate my knowledge and assail my character. How very Christ-like of you.

To everyone reading this thread, let it be known that extraordinary either cannot or refuses to answer the question as to why our Lord Jesus had to die on the cross. I've answered it in great depth but he cannot give a single coherent answer at all. With this in mind come to your own conclusions.
 
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EmSw

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Isaiah 53, Romans 3:25-26

Paul speaks in Romans of Christ being publicly displayed as a propitiation. A propitiation is a wrath-appeasing sacrifice. The bible declares plainly that Christ was publicly displayed by God as a wrath-appeasing sacrifice, that God may both be just and the justifier of wicked men.

. . . . . . .

A carefully studied and correct understanding of the nature of the propitiation of Christ leads inescapably to the truth of the doctrines of the total depravity of man, unconditional election, effectual grace, and the perseverance of the saints. All five points of reformed soteriology flow inescapably from both the whole counsel of God's word and from deductive reasoning.

But you forgot to answer where it says Jesus took the penalty of ETERNAL DEATH. If He took that penalty, then He would not be in heaven today, for eternal is forever.
 
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ALoveDivine

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have you come to a conclusion as to whether Jesus took the penalty of eternal death for us or not?
He most certainly took the wrath of God in our place yes, does that mean he has to go to Hell forever, no. I think the key is him being forsaken of the Father on the cross. I won't go on from there because there is no way our feeble human minds can even begin to understand that profound reality.

What is inescapable is that Christ took the penalty for our sins, he stood in our place, and took what we deserve upon himself, he propitiated the Father for the sins of his sheep, whom the Father had given him to save. He rose again on the third day as King of the Universe having defeated death, Hell, sin and Satan. Upon repentance and faith one is clothed in the imputed righteousness of Christ, thereby standing justified before an infinitely Holy and Just God, and is sealed with the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us, seals us, and keeps us through faith unto the day of redemption when we rise again glorified. Gospel 101 brother.
 
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EmSw

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He most certainly took the wrath of God in our place yes, does that mean he has to go to Hell forever, no. I think the key is him being forsaken of the Father on the cross. I won't go on from there because there is no way our feeble human minds can even begin to understand that profound reality.

So you think the wrath of God is being forsaken by Him. That's not the wrath presented in Revelation. Take a look at the full strength of God's wrath in verses 10 and 11 of chapter 14 -

10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;


Was Jesus tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the angels and Himself?

Did the smoke of Jesus' torment ascend forever and ever?

Where does it say Jesus took God's wrath in our place? Surely you are making this up. Do you think you can disobey God and get a reprieve from His wrath?

Here is what Paul said about God's wrath in Romans 2 -

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;


If one does not obey the truth and does evil, how is it you think he will escape God's wrath and indignation? For each one of us will either be given eternal life through continued patience in doing good, or wrath, indignation, tribulation, and anguish for doing evil.

What is inescapable is that Christ took the penalty for our sins, he stood in our place, and took what we deserve upon himself, he propitiated the Father for the sins of his sheep, whom the Father had given him to save. He rose again on the third day as King of the Universe having defeated death, Hell, sin and Satan. Upon repentance and faith one is clothed in the imputed righteousness of Christ, thereby standing justified before an infinitely Holy and Just God, and is sealed with the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us, seals us, and keeps us through faith unto the day of redemption when we rise again glorified. Gospel 101 brother.

Here again, you say the penalty is eternal death. I have shown Jesus did not take this penalty, for He is alive today.

That's not the gospel Jesus preached. Do you care to quote where Jesus said this is His gospel?
 
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ALoveDivine

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That's not the gospel Jesus preached. Do you care to quote where Jesus said this is His gospel?
If you look back to the last page I exposited the Gospel in great depth and detail using scripture. I'm not going to do it again, I've got better things to do with my time.

You sound very much like you believe we are saved by our own works. If so you are a heretic.

I'm gonna ask you the same question extraordinary dodged and ran away from.

Why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Was his death necessary for our salvation? If so why? If so, how?
 
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extraordinary

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I'm gonna ask you the same question extraordinary dodged and ran away from.
Everyone here knows that I don't dodge or run away from anything!
They also know that I choose to not deal with some people.
Because there are all kinds of people on these forums.
Who art thou anyway (from my handy-dandy listola)? ...
Atheist
Agnostic
Curious
Converted (intellectually only)
Religionist (perhaps born-again, but deceived by religious spirits)
Born-again Christian walking in the flesh
Born-again Christian walking in the Spirit
BAC baptized with the Holy Spirit walking in the flesh
BAC baptized with the Holy Spirit walking in the Spirit
.
 
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EmSw

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If you look back to the last page I exposited the Gospel in great depth and detail using scripture. I'm not going to do it again, I've got better things to do with my time.

I'm not asking you to run; I am asking you to show us where Jesus paid the penalty of eternal death. This is the third time I've asked.

Jesus gave us the gospel; I have asked you where Jesus said such things as you have stated, but you either do not want to nor can't.

But run if you must. You won't be the first Reformed adherent to run from my questions.

You sound very much like you believe we are saved by our own works. If so you are a heretic.

I will ask you this, will evil works save you? Will evil works get you into heaven? It's either yes or no. What do you say?

I'm gonna ask you the same question extraordinary dodged and ran away from. Why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Was his death necessary for our salvation? If so why? If so, how?

1. Jesus' death and suffering on the cross was the last and greatest temptation He overcame. After overcoming this temptation, He put off the earthly body received from Mary (for He could only be tempted in an earthly body). Then He put on His glorious, heavenly body, never to taste temptation again.

2. Perhaps you think no one was saved until He died. I'll ask you, were Abraham, Moses, and David saved? They lived and died before His death.
When did salvation come to Zacchaeus' house (Luke 19:9) - before or after His death? Be sure to understand the word 'today' in the passage?
 
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ALoveDivine

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Yep, I'm done.

Isaiah 53, Romans 3:25-26

You sir have denied the gospel as clearly exposited in these two quintessential passages. I will no longer converse with you, as we have no common ground at all. Christians can disagree on many things, the Gospel is not one of them.

Your words make me want to vomit, and I can no longer stand to read your blasphemous nonsense.
 
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EmSw

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Yep, I'm done.

Isaiah 53, Romans 3:25-26

You sir have denied the gospel as clearly exposited in these two quintessential passages. I will no longer converse with you, as we have no common ground at all. Christians can disagree on many things, the Gospel is not one of them.

Your words make me want to vomit, and I can no longer stand to read your blasphemous nonsense.

First of all, the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ was not during Isaiah's time, as we see in Mark 1 -

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 As it is written in the prophets: “Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord; make His paths straight.”

Secondly, you failed to mention the true gospel Jesus preached. You won't find anywhere, the gospel you champion, preached by Jesus.

How do you get the gospel from Romans 3? Jesus never preached anything like this.
 
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Tellastory

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I am curious about the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved', AKA 'Eternal Assurance'. I am an Anglican and there are a variety of views in the Anglican Church about salvation.

If a person accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their personal Saviour, is there really anything they can do that can cause them to lose their salvation? What if Hitler had knelt down and accepted Christ just before drawing up the orders for Kristallnacht?

Say a young man is exposed to the Gospel and he decides to receive Christ as his personal Saviour. He prays with real, true faith and asks Christ to come into his life. He starts to attend church and read the Bible every day. However, he is also living with his girlfriend and engaging in sexual relations with her, and he doesn't see anything wrong with that. He continues to live with her and have a sexual relationship, yet he prays daily and trusts in Christ for his salvation. Does the fact that he is committing fornication mean that he is not saved since he has received Christ with faith?

He is saved, but he is still living in sin. He should pray to the Lord Jesus Christ to help him see the sin of it as His words will show and the necessity to avoid fornication by getting married or eloping if they cannot abstain until they get formally married.

1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 7:1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

The danger is being left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event to face the fire coming on the earth and the coming great tribulation.

Revelations 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Like the prodigal son that had given up his inheritance for wild living, so will those saved believers be left behind for not looking to the author & finisher of our faith to depart from iniquity so they can be received as a vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

There will be weeping & gnashing of teeth over the loss of that inheritance, but those saved believers will be received later on after the great tribulation as the prodigal son will return for he is still son to be given a robe and ring in being received as vessels unto "dishonour" in His House as God will wipe the tears from their eyes to get past that loss.

So it is better to marry to abide in Him; plus show real love towards the lover by being married to her to help her avoid sinning against God too.
 
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Tellastory

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It's a strawman argument to propose a scenario whereby a person born of God continues in sin seeing as the Bible says, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin" 1John 5:18 Apparently the Anglican proposing such a scenario was ignorant of that fact.

Seeing how many believers are judging professed believers that live in sin as not saved, it stands to just cause in determining how 1 John 5:18 is testifying towards.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

The apostle John was not saying that a saved believer can never sin again nor was he saying that those professed believers that continue in sin are not saved, but that they cannot say that they know Him when living as an unrepentant believer in Christ.

Salvation was not the issue in regards to sin but about maintaining that fellowship wth the Father & the Son by His grace & by His help as His disciples by abiding in Him & His words.

The reproof that John was giving was to address those professed believers that somehow believed that sin was no longer sin now that they were saved, but John pointed out our walk with Him is defining that fellowship.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So salvation was not the issue, but maintaining that fellowship with the Father & the Son by walking in the light as Jesus did and thereby not living in sin by His grace & by His help.

There are consequences for not abiding in Him & His words for what we build on that foundation, God will judge all saved believers by. See 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

Those that defile the temple of God and did not look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them discern and repent of those iniquities ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ), will be left behind from attending the Marriage Supper in His honour and thus becoming castaways ( 1 Corinthians 1:9:24-27 ) to be received later as vessels unto dishonour in His House after the great tribulation ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 & 2 Timothy 2:10-14 & 1 Peter 4:17-19 & John 6:39-40 ).

Paul never judged a believer living in sin or those professed believers not following after the tradition taught of us but are being disorderly as not saved, because he had acknowledged them both as brothers still as we are to admonish them in the hopes that by withdrawing fellowship from them, they may repent. See 1 Corinthians 5th chapter & 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 And once they do, there is no necessity to relay that foundation again because they were and are still saved, but were at risk of being "excommunicated" by the Bridegroom to be left behind to face the coming great tribulation.

So while there is still time, may every believer having His seal trust Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to discern & repent from all works of iniquity so that they may be found abiding in Him & His words as kept by those that loved Him & His words in the KJV as His disciples in maintaining fellowship with Him.
 
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extraordinary

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The danger is being left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event
to face the fire coming on the earth and the coming great tribulation.
You have come to the correct place to be enlightened about such things as:
-- Christians who live a lifestyle of habitual unrepentent sinning will NOT receive eternal life
-- A pre-trib rapture is NOT the truth about what will happen soon during the end-times

Scripture warns us that Satan is the great liar and deceiver!
But does the church pay any attention? No.

Satan has been victorious by deceiving most of Christ's church in 2 major areas:
OSAS and the pre-trib rapture!

Please note: This week I will be posting in the appropriate sub-forum
powerful Scriptural evidences which disprove the pre-trib rapture!

Satan's OSAS and pre-trib rapture both have been serving
to "tickle the ears" of the church exceedingly nicely indeed!
.
 
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extraordinary

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The apostle John was not saying that a saved believer can never sin again
nor was he saying that those professed believers that continue in sin are not saved,
but that they cannot say that they know Him when living as an unrepentant believer in Christ.
YES, you have good discernment in this area ... this indeed is what Scripture says!
Those who continue in sin do NOT know God and are NOT able to fellowship with Him.
.
 
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bcbsr

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Deciding to "Receive Jesus into one's heart" by praying some kind of ritualistic pray is not the gospel. Such a person may presume they are saved, whereas in fact they may not be saved to begin with. The gospel in a nutshell is "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". No mention of praying a prayer or receiving Jesus into one's heart. Furthermore one must believe in the Lord Jesus, not simply Jesus as some kind of fireman come to save us from the flames. But rather as the Lord of His Kingdom to whom we pledge allegiance to treat as Lord. In contrast to "Free Grace Theology" which makes accepting the person of Christ as Lord as being optional, the Bible says, "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

If a person actually is saved, they have eternal security. And not only eternal security, but those who have been born of God will live as children of God should. For it is written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

While Arminians end up reading into the Bible a salvation by works idea in maintaining one's salvation status, such verses they utilize are largely referring to diagnosing a person's salvation status due to the effect of regeneration. Diagnosis is like an x-ray. It does nothing to saved. It only reveals one's status.
 
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