Question about my Baptism as an infant

Frankie · May 12, 2004

kayanne said:
frankie, your font is teensy-tiny so my late-night eyes can hardly read it! can you bump it up a few notches?

I will be happy to make it bigger, just so everyone knows, I am not trying to get attention.

Now, can I ask a favor, can you make your font darker? The pink is so light that I have to strain to read it.

Cary.Melvin · May 12, 2004

Cright said:
I agree with this post.

I'd like to post *some* of the scriptures that helped me learn about salvation, and what I get from them. (to those who attend baptist/anabaptist/similar churches, feel free to correct me if you think I've lost direction... other denom's please feel free to ask me for further biblical support but please, no debate)

Salvation comes only from the grace of God through Jesus...
1 Peter 1:8-10
Romans 1:16
Jonah 2:9
Luke 1:77
Acts 4:12

Baptism not needed
Acts 15:11 (just as you are)
Acts 2:21 (everyone who calls to the lord will be saved, also next 2 vs)
Romans 10:10
Romans 10:13

Indication that salvation is all you need for heaven (not purgatory)
1 Thessalonians 5:9

Babies don't need baptism for salvation
1 Peter 2:2 (says like a baby grows, adults should grow in salvation... not babies should)
Hebrews 5:13 (infants can't comprehend righteousness)

** no examples of babies being baptised in the bible.
** the thief on the cross next to Jesus did not need baptism for salvation

Here is a good list I came across that summarised scripture verses about salvation.

According to the Bible we are Saved by:

Believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
Repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
Baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
the Work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5, 2 Cor 3:6)
Declaring with our Mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
Coming to a Knowlege of the Truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
Works (Rom 2:6,7; James 2:24)
Grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
His Blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
His Righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
His Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

As taken from Steve Ray's Book Crossing the Tiber : Evangelical Protestants Discover the Historical Church (page 100)
Ignatius Press,[url="http://www.catholic-convert.com/"]www.catholic-convert.com[/url]

kayanne · May 12, 2004

Frankie said:
I will be happy to make it bigger, just so everyone knows, I am not trying to get attention.

Now, can I ask a favor, can you make your font darker? The pink is so light that I have to strain to read it.

frankie, interesting that you should ask that! After I asked you to enlarge your font, I decided to review my own font, and decided that my color was too pale. So I changed to another, which turned out to be even lighter! :o I've tried to change it again, but it keeps looking like the pale lavender it currently is. So, sorry about my very pastel font--I'll keep trying to change it.

KristiXP · May 12, 2004

Hello Members!

I think I need to put my mod hat on for a few minutes here, so...

*Mod Hat On*
I'd like to remind those of you posting in this thread, of the new forum specific rules for this forum:

1) This forum is open to all Christians. Non-Christian members are not allowed to post here.

2) Baptist/Anabaptist, as well as all members of the Congregational Forums can post fellowship threads here. Only Baptist/Anabaptist members are allowed to debate threads to discuss various doctrines to do with their own denomination and other denominations (including the Catholic church), as long as they are within our rules.

3) Non-Baptist/Anabaptist members (eg. Catholic,Charasmatic, Weselyan, Lutheran, etc... members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Baptist/Anabaptist doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Baptist/Anabaptist members. Any debate posts by Non-Baptist/Anabaptist members will be deleted or moved to the appropriate forum. In other words, only Baptist/Anabaptist members can debate here.

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Basically, we do NOT allow accusations that a particular Christian denomination or group is non-Christian. That is the bottom line. Debates regarding doctrine is allowed (for Baptist/Anabaptist members only). Accusations are not.

These rules are in addition to the original Christian Forums rules that have been written and set out before you by the Owner and Webmaster, Erwin.

Please remember these rules, as they are placed here for a reason. Non-Baptist/Anabaptist members cannot debate in this forum. I am seeing some non-Baptist/Anabaptist members starting to step over the line here. Please, let's remember these rules, they are an important part of Christian Forums and are here for a reason.

Thank you,
KristiXP

*Mod Hat Off*

Blazin4Christ · May 12, 2004

KennySe said:
Per the Baptist faith, is my baptism as an infant valid?

I have read posts by former Catholics (baptized as infants), who are now Baptists, who were baptized a second time and were THEN saved.

What about those, like me, who were baptized as babies, do we need to be baptized again as adults?

Baptism never saves no matter how young, regardless of religion,denomination, etc..., it is grace that saves, if you want salvation seek grace, not a second Baptism

GreenEyedLady · May 12, 2004

Cright said:
I agree with this post.

I'd like to post *some* of the scriptures that helped me learn about salvation, and what I get from them. (to those who attend baptist/anabaptist/similar churches, feel free to correct me if you think I've lost direction... other denom's please feel free to ask me for further biblical support but please, no debate)

Salvation comes only from the grace of God through Jesus...
1 Peter 1:8-10
Romans 1:16
Jonah 2:9
Luke 1:77
Acts 4:12

Baptism not needed
Acts 15:11 (just as you are)
Acts 2:21 (everyone who calls to the lord will be saved, also next 2 vs)
Romans 10:10
Romans 10:13

Indication that salvation is all you need for heaven (not purgatory)
1 Thessalonians 5:9

Babies don't need baptism for salvation
1 Peter 2:2 (says like a baby grows, adults should grow in salvation... not babies should)
Hebrews 5:13 (infants can't comprehend righteousness)

** no examples of babies being baptised in the bible.
** the thief on the cross next to Jesus did not need baptism for salvation

Here the CCC says Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation
**"And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257)."
http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

Here the CCC says Baptism is NOT NECESSARY for salvation of infants, and some adults.
** "Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 12601, 1283)."
http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp
(greeneyedlady - looks like Catholic doctrine does say unbaptized babies can go to heaven.. possibly anyway.)

Hope those verses are helpful, if you don't have a bible near by, check out www.biblegateway.com, it has several versions, choose your favorite version to read with.

C

Great POST!!!! I could not agree with you more.

I missed the part about the RCC saying they are in heaven. I will post that part of the catechism in just a second.

GreenEyedLady · May 12, 2004

1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here.

Quote:

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. 50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth. 51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them. 52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized. 53

Quote:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," 64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

The problem that I have with this is not that it states "Babies go to Hell." I never thought the church actually would come out and say that. However parents who have left the church not baptizing thier children get the feeling that if thier child dies, thier childs salvation was in "thier" hands. It also state that we as parents can hold our children back from being "children of God"
which I have highlighted in orange. If we are not a child of God, then what are we and where do we go when we die?
Again, I want to point out that it does state that they "hope" there is a way that the child gets to heaben but then at the end it urges parents not to prevent children from baptism. WHY not?
Can I say that there is MORE than hope in the Bible, that babies go to heaven? Is that fair?

I am not trying to attack the church here. This is somthing that I have been wanting to discuss openly with other Baptist. I am so thankful to have a place to finally do that.
THANK YOU GUYS!
GEL

KennySe · May 12, 2004

GreenEyedLady, did you miss my following post, addressed to you?

KennySe said:
How about we not discuss Catholic doctrine on this forum,, but instead on the Catholic Forum?

If you want to discuss the Catechism of the Catholic Church's section on Baptism, OBOB is the proper forum.

jenptcfan · May 12, 2004

If you read the rules, we are allowed to discuss Catholic docterine (or that of another denomination) here.

I don't see the need for anyone to start another thread. This thread is about infant baptism...the posts are about infant baptism.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

KristiXP · May 12, 2004

Baptist/Anabaptist members are allowed to discuss/debate the doctrine of any denomination, as long as the discussions/debates are within our rules. Also, Catholics in the OBOB forum are allowed to discuss/debate the doctrine of other denominations, so it's a win-win situation here.

Crazy Liz · May 12, 2004

The problem is that if Baptists happen to misinterpret or mischaracterize a doctrine from a tradition outide those included here, members from that tradition may not be able correct them without starting a debate that would violate the forum rules.

It seems like if GEL wants to know how Catholics interpret the quotations she posted, she has to go to OBOB to ask. If she wants to know what Bapists think about Catholic doctrine, that's OK to talk about here, but there's no assurance any of the Baptists really understand the Catholic doctrine they are discussing.

It is also against the rules, as I understand them, to argue about a post in a different forum than the one it was originally posted in.

IMHO, these denominational ghettos make it very difficult to discuss what other denominations believe without perpetuating the kinds of stereotypes that have kept us from understanding each other for a long time. Now that the PRE forum has been broken down into even smaller ghettos, it is getting harder and harder to discuss issues that might help lead us to a better common understanding.

The motto of CF is "UNITING ALL CHRISTIANS AS ONE BODY." Yet these denominational forums seem to do the opposite.

Just my $.02.

jenptcfan · May 12, 2004

I agree that it might not be healthy for us to speculate on what another denomination believes, but in all fairness, it wasn't a baptist who brought up the idea of infant baptism. It was actually brought up by a Catholic member who wanted to know what Baptists thought of it.

I haven't really noticed any speculating on what another denomination believes in the other threads in this forum though.

KennySe · May 12, 2004

jenptcfan said:
I agree that it might not be healthy for us to speculate on what another denomination believes, but in all fairness, it wasn't a baptist who brought up the idea of infant baptism. It was actually brought up by a Catholic member who wanted to know what Baptists thought of it.

I am that Catholic member.

And I have received answers to my initial inquiry.

KennySe · May 12, 2004

Crazy Liz said:
The problem is that if Baptists happen to misinterpret or mischaracterize a doctrine from a tradition outide those included here, members from that tradition may not be able correct them without starting a debate that would violate the forum rules.

It seems like if GEL wants to know how Catholics interpret the quotations she posted, she has to go to OBOB to ask. If she wants to know what Bapists think about Catholic doctrine, that's OK to talk about here, but there's no assurance any of the Baptists really understand the Catholic doctrine they are discussing.

It is also against the rules, as I understand them, to argue about a post in a different forum than the one it was originally posted in.

IMHO, these denominational ghettos make it very difficult to discuss what other denominations believe without perpetuating the kinds of stereotypes that have kept us from understanding each other for a long time. Now that the PRE forum has been broken down into even smaller ghettos, it is getting harder and harder to discuss issues that might help lead us to a better common understanding.

The motto of CF is "UNITING ALL CHRISTIANS AS ONE BODY." Yet these denominational forums seem to do the opposite.

Just my $.02.

And I add mine to yours.

GreenEyedLady · May 13, 2004

Crazy Liz said:
It seems like if GEL wants to know how Catholics interpret the quotations she posted, she has to go to OBOB to ask. If she wants to know what Bapists think about Catholic doctrine, that's OK to talk about here, but there's no assurance any of the Baptists really understand the Catholic doctrine they are discussing.

.

I know exactly how Catholics interpret what I have posted because I was born and raised in the RCC and my entire family is also in the RCC. I even had a Aunt who was a nun and we discussed this several times.
I see no harm in talking about the doctrine. I think its healthy and I feel that everyone should be able to have a voice on this website without feeling like they are getting stomped on. I just don't understand what the big deal is?
I am also wondering, why someone has to interpret what the catechism says. Its pretty black and white and is clearly written. I could understand feather getting ruffled if I was bashing the church. We are simply discussing doctrine and applying it to what the bible says, thats all! I still love Catholics!

GEL

Sinai · May 19, 2004

ufonium2 said:
So, let's take my mom for example: She was baptized as an infant in the United Methodist Church. Her husband (my dad) was brought to Christianity through her, and was baptised as an adult. She was a loyal member of the UMC for fifty years, and he for thirty. Then, in their opinion (and mine, but I digress) the UMC went tolerance-crazy and was no longer the church they had joined.

So, my folks went church shopping. They were told by every Baptist church they went to that she would have to be re-baptized. He wouldn't, because having been raised with no church at all, he was baptized as an adult by immersion into the UMC.

Mom refuses to be re-baptized because to her that is basically saying that she is not saved because of the circumstances of her baptism, whereas my dad who was baptized into the exact same church and who holds the very same beliefs is saved because the circumstances differ. The judgement of their salvation had nothing to do with what was in their hearts, but rather with outward signs of faith...dare I say it.....works.

Does that seem right?

Since Baptists do not consider baptism to be essential for salvation, whether either of your parents were previously baptized should not be considered as being a salvation issue. Both of your parents have accepted Christ as their personal savior; therefore, both of them are saved. That is not the issue. However, most Baptist churches require a person to partake of believer's baptism prior to receiving full membership in that church [though a person can generally join a Sunday school class and various other church groups without being a member of the church per se].

Since each Baptist church is generally autonomous, each church is generally entitled to decide for itself whether to accept someone's prior baptism as being sufficient. Since your father has had believer's baptism by immersion, it is not surprising that he could find a Baptist church that would accept him as a member without requiring him to again be baptised. Your mother, on the other hand, has not been baptized since receiving Christ as her savior. I am not sure I understand why she is so opposed to doing so. If she is upset because baptism is required for her membership but is not being required for her husband, then he might consider joining her in the baptismal pool. The pastor could explain to the congregation that both of them have been Christians for many years, that both of them have been baptised in another Christian faith, and that they now are following their Lord in believer's baptism so that they may continue their Christian witness as members of this church.

ema0941 · May 19, 2004

Are paedobaptists included in the Baptist/Anabaptist grouping? I am not a paedobaptist but I know a few people with these views and they seem to share all the same views as regular Baptists except on this point we are discussing here.
I understand that Paedobaptists believe that christian families should baptise their infants based on the texts (in Acts mainly) where a conversion was followed by the baptism of the new convert and their whole household without any indication that any of them had been saved.

bleechers · May 19, 2004

For my Baptist friends:

One must understand the truth to be converted and then baptized. It is the understandding and the believing that convert, then baptism follows.

Acts 8:36-37
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Understanding also necessary to be converted:

Matthew 13
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 12
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

As you've guessed. I was baptized as an infant. I didn't have understanding nor did I believe with all my heart. I was baptized by immersion as an adult (Ana-baptism) much to the chagrin of my family.

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Iollain · May 23, 2004

KennySe said:
Then, I will not be fully immersed as there is no saving power in it.

I have been baptized of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus. My baptism of the Holy Spirit is valid. There is no need for getting wet.

Right, Frankie?

Yes you should get wet, there is a Bridegroom coming and you should get ready for the wedding.

theseed · May 23, 2004

Baptism should always be after a profession of faith, if they were saved after baptism then it would be. . . proper.

baptism does not save or impart grace or forgiveness (we believe) but is a command that glorifies God and proclaims Him before men, and is a symbol of the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer.

So, it is not required, but it is proper if one was not truly saved the first time to get rebaptized.

Question about my Baptism as an infant

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