Question about Imminency.

[SeekingTheKingdom]

Hello. I know im comming into a place that is in dissagreement with what i believe about the rapture, and about the dispensations. But if you would please answer a few questions. Follower of Jesus, to Follower of Jesus, that would be greatly appretiated. Im Comming as a fellow Believer to have a Conversation, Not to Angrily argue.



About the "At any moment" Belief about the Rapture.

Im almost certain that ALL Disspensationalists belive that Jesus can come back at any moment. Even while you are reading this, he could come back.

If that is the case, then what does it mean when Paul, says this in 2 Thess 2:1-4:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come..."

So right there, Paul opens Saying there IS a gathering Together TO him. SO there IS a Rapture. Paul goes onto say:

"...Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion(Falling away) comes first, ..."

Some say that, the Falling away, is not a rebellion, but a "Rapture" with out even going into the greek, Paul allready tells you that it is not the case.

He says: "Now concerning...Our being gathered together to him." Thats the rapture.

SO it cant be a rapture, the rapture(that day)
cant happen unless the "falling away happens first" So the falling away cant be a rapture, other wise the gathering is NOT the rapture...but it is.

Paul goes on to say:

"...and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

That Day WONT come unless the falling away happens, and The anti-christ makes himself to be God IN the temple.

But there IS no temple. In the Way that Almost ALL dispensationlists beleive(please correct me if im wrong) There needs to be a litteral temple. So if thats the case, considering there IS NOT a Temple as of Yet, then Jesus CAN NOT come back at any moment. So as long as there is NO temple, there can be NO Man of lawlessness. And if there is NO man of Lawlessness. There can be no Rapture. So the Rapture is NOT imminent. It cant be. There are still some things that need to happen, which has not, yet.

Am I missing something?

Also, my last question, and I appologise that this is NOT about imminency directly but it coresponds to it in my opinion.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 it says:
" Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet"

And Revelation 10:7 says:
"but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh(last) angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

So, it seems to me. That the writings, of John, and the writings of Paul agree With each other.


John says, That the seventh Trumpet will Fullfill the Mystery of God.

And,

Paul, says that the Mystery IS, being changed incouruptable, in an instant, at the LAST Trumpet.

The Mystery of God, IS the Rapture, the seizing and the change. The becomming the likness of Jesus. However the Mystery CAN"T come to pass untill the last trumpet.

So the Rapture Cant be imminent. If i am wrong in my beleif PLEASE show me. if any one can friendly tackle this with me as a brother(or sister) in the Lord.

Recap:
1.) If Jesus can come back at any time. Then that means the TEMPLE is not physical. OR then, Jesus CANT come back at any time.

2.) Is there MORE than ONE Last trumpet? (Matthew 24:30-31,
1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 10:7) are these verse talking about the same? if they are..then Again The rapture is NOT imminant.


Again, Nothing is set in stone and if im not seeing clearly i would like to see it. Thank you ahead of time. Jesus bless you.

 

[riverrat]

SeekingTheKington wrote:

About the "At any moment" Belief about the Rapture.

Im almost certain that ALL Disspensationalists belive that Jesus can come back at any moment. Even while you are reading this, he could come back.

If that is the case, then what does it mean when Paul, says this in 2 Thess 2:1-4:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come..."

I will comment, rightly or wrongly, about the scripture you quote in Thess.
The Thessalonians were being persecuted and thought they were in the tribulation. The "day of the Lord" is the tribulation.

"

...Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion(Falling away) comes first, ..."

"that day" referred to is the "day of the Lord" in the previous quote. "the rebellion(Falling away)" is translated from the word "apostasy" which can also be translated "departure". So Paul is telling the Thessalonians that the tribulation will not begin until after the rapture.

"...and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

The antichrist will be revealed after the rapture by signing a peace treaty with Israel. The tribulation will begin at this point and will last 7 years. At the midpoint of the tribulation the antichrist will desecrate the temple. So the third temple will have to have been rebuilt before this desecration.

This leads me to believe that the next event in God's timeline is the rapture and it can happen at any time.

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

Oh Thank you for responding Riverrat.

Well this is the thing thats getting me. I KNOW that Apostasia(apostasy) can be taken to be a departure. BUT...Paul says

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come..."

So, Paul Says The coming of the Lord Jesus is when we will be gathered to him.

So THAT is the rapture right? Us being gathered to Jesus IS the Rapture?. However most pre trib's say that the "apostasia" is the Rapture. SO it would look a bit weird if you read it this way.

"Now concerning RAPTURE, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way.
For that day will not come, unless the RAPTURE(apostasy, apostasia) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

So you cant say the RAPTURE wont come untill The RAPTURE happens. And Us being gathered to Jesus IS the rapture. So then that means the apostasy(apostasia) is NOT.

See why my point? So ONE of those are Wrong. Im saying it the APOSTASIA, is the wrong part.

So if thats the case, That leads me to understand, that Paul is saying that the RAPTURE(us being gathered together with Jesus) CANT happen unless the apostasy(falling away) happens, and the man of sin is revealed, and he sits in the temple and claims to be God.

Paul, is saying that The Rapture CANT happen untill The man of Sin.

Once the man of Sin claims to Be GOD, THEN the Rapture Can happen. So if someone says the Rapture happened DONT listen. Thats what he is saying.

So then Jesus return CANT be imminent, because There has yet to be a revelation of the MAN of Sin.

Or at least thats how im understanding it.

 

[riverrat]

Sorry, I am just not following your line of reasoning. Maybe our problem is the "day" which is the "day of the Lord" which is the tribulation. Still it seems to me to be saying that the rapture and the antichrist must take place before the "day of the Lord"

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

Well ok, let me try to rephrase it.

Paul says the Church at Thessalonia, should not be alarmed, he says COCERNING the gathering to the Lord. He puts the gathering to the Lord, and the DAY of the Lord in the same context. And THEN says It CANT happen unless the apostasy happens.

PAul is saying that there are people saying that The Rapture happened allready and they were left behind...and paul is saying NO dont let anyone shake you, The Rapture CANT happen(Day of the gathering unto the Lord) un less the Apostasy happens FIRST.

So Apostasy CANT be talking about a departure becasue, he says the apostasy has to happen, in order for the gatheing unto Jesus to happen.

People were telling this church that the gathering unto Jesus must have happend allready, adn that was causing a stir in the church, Paul was trying to calm them down. And THEN he said the gathering CANT happen unless the falling away happens. And the man of Sin was revealed. Which they werent at that time. SO then that means the Gathering of ourselves with Jesus CANT happen yet.

He said the gathering of our selves to Jesus is the Day of the Lord in this context. Or at least thats how im seeing it. There are no changes in tone, or even swithc in context to make me think otherwise.

Paul says Concerning the gathering to Jesus, Dont let anyone decieve you that it happend...it cant happen untill the falling away.

Does that clear up my line of thinking a bit? if that line of thining is wrong. Someone explain it to me. adn also if you can cover the MYSTERY part that would be apretiated as well..but i guess first things first. Im just trying to understand.

 

[Hismessenger]

The "day of the Lord" is the tribulation.

This statement is where most of the confusion comes from. The tribulation is not the "day of the Lord". First off the tribulation of the end time is instigated by Satan. He is the one who makes the treaty with Israel and then turns on them mid way through the treaty. No where does the scripture say that it is the wrath of God or the "day of the Lord" But some mennion of Satan started this lie and the sheep are too lazy to go and investigate the truth. Christ sends his angels at the end of the tribulation to lock Satan down. When He himself comes Satan won't be locked down but rather put down for good. Simple facts which are there for all to read but most rather accept this lie and will pay for taking the mark of the beast. The mark is the lie and it is in their foreheads, minds, to believe it.

I posted this on one of the other threads so here is the time line for the wrath of God and it comes at the end of the millennium. Not the tribulation. Satan launches His final attack on Israel and is cast into the lowest hell, never to return to trouble mankind again. Gods wrath is poured out on those who followed Satan in his lie at the white throne judgment.

Ask yourself this simple question and the answer will confound many and amaze others. Would God kill his own people as what happens in the tribulation. Many being beheaded for their witness for God. Yet the first thing that is cried is that we are not to suffer His wrath. There is no other way to see this other than the truth unless you want to add supposition and enuendo, speculation and out right unbelief. That is the only way anyone can take this lie and not see the fallacy of it's reasoning. Do all the math and be Berean. Find all the scriptures related to the end time and then compare them to the end of the tribulation. Understand that the writers are writing from what they have been shown. Some in more detail and some only touching the subject but all with a purpose for our safety.

hismessenger

 

[riverrat]

SeekingTheKingdom wrote:

Well ok, let me try to rephrase it.

Paul says the Church at Thessalonia, should not be alarmed, he says COCERNING the gathering to the Lord. He puts the gathering to the Lord, and the DAY of the Lord in the same context. And THEN says It CANT happen unless the apostasy happens.

PAul is saying that there are people saying that The Rapture happened allready and they were left behind...and paul is saying NO dont let anyone shake you, The Rapture CANT happen(Day of the gathering unto the Lord) un less the Apostasy happens FIRST.

So Apostasy CANT be talking about a departure becasue, he says the apostasy has to happen, in order for the gatheing unto Jesus to happen.

People were telling this church that the gathering unto Jesus must have happend allready, adn that was causing a stir in the church, Paul was trying to calm them down. And THEN he said the gathering CANT happen unless the falling away happens. And the man of Sin was revealed. Which they werent at that time. SO then that means the Gathering of ourselves with Jesus CANT happen yet.

He said the gathering of our selves to Jesus is the Day of the Lord in this context. Or at least thats how im seeing it. There are no changes in tone, or even swithc in context to make me think otherwise.

Paul says Concerning the gathering to Jesus, Dont let anyone decieve you that it happend...it cant happen untill the falling away.

Does that clear up my line of thinking a bit? if that line of thining is wrong. Someone explain it to me. adn also if you can cover the MYSTERY part that would be apretiated as well..but i guess first things first. Im just trying to understand.

Our difference of opinion is obviously about the "day of the Lord". I am not saying that you are wrong and i am right. It is just my opinion that the "day of the Lord" is the tribulation and not the rapture. Maybe there will be more replies that will clear this up for both of us.

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

Hopefuly my friend Yeah im not right Either. I know what i see. But what i see can be my own understadning.

but to cover "HisMessenger"s comment.

"Ask yourself this simple question and the answer will confound many and amaze others. Would God kill his own people as what happens in the tribulation. Many being beheaded for their witness for God. Yet the first thing that is cried is that we are not to suffer His wrath.'

Wait...So God will not suffer his children his wrath. But the people who will be beheaded in the tribulation...they wont be saved Gods wrath? They will be Witnesses of the Gosepl, which you cant be a witness of unless you have the spirit IN you...the scriptures say that...no one can say jesus is lord with out the spirit.

So God will save SOME children but not ALL?

 

[Hismessenger]

So God will save SOME children but not ALL?

No He saves them all no matter how we leave this earth. Either by natural death or being killed for his witness, Don't you understand that countless Christians have been killed down through the ages. Are you implying that they won't be saved?
because they weren't raptured to escape tribulation. Get real and see the light. The truth is before you.

hismessenger

 

[Tim Myers]

"the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him" ≠ "rapture"

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

@Hismessenger

"Get real and see the light, the truth is before you."

Awesome is that your catch phrase?

The Truth is IN me brother, as it is you. OBVIOUSLY we can have the truth and still "see through a mirror dimly". Either on MY side or on YOUR side. So relax.

What YOU said my friend, was, That The rapture was God saving His children from His Wrath.

Ok. But YOU said that the Saints IN the Trib are also his saints.(ie HIS CHILDREN) So he is going to Save SOME from HIS wrath and not others? He is going to save SOME spirit filled children but not the spirit filled children IN the Trib? You said he wouldnt subject his saint to HIs wrath. But ANYONE with the spirit are his saints. And the TRIBULATION saints will have the spirit. SO what you said contradicts. Think about it.

Im not saying you are wrong believing that there is a Pre trib rapture...Im saying that WHY you beleive so kinda contradicts. And Yes MANY MANY martyrs. And THEY Have salvation, becasue they have Jesus. But you say that the Trib is GODS wrath, So the dead Christians in the past 2000 years, did NOT subject GOds wrath. SO leave them out of it. They have Jesus so they have eternal life. But YOU say the church will be raptured Before. Jesus comes Before. its Imminent adn can happen at any time. I say if Jesus is going to save his followers with the spirit NOW, why do the followers with the SAME spirit have to go through wrath in the Trib. ALso, Paul says The Day of the Lord, CANT come untill the falling away happens first. and the man of sin is revealed. In my opinion Paul says the day of he Lord is when we are Gathered TO him. And US gathering TO him, IS the rapture.

@Tim Myers, Hello

""the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him" ≠ "rapture"

So our gathered together TO Jesus, is NOT the Rapture? Then what is it? and can you show me in scripture where it differentiates. This i never heard before adn might clear things up. thank you. Jesus Bless you.

 

[Hismessenger]

What I said was that the tribulation is not the wrath of God but of Satan. This is confirmed by Rev 20;4.

Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This shows saints in the tribulation and it is Satan who's wrath they suffer. Can it be any clearer than that. The church is still here during the tribulation, For those who say the church is gone and comes back with Christ to reign for the thousand years you need to go back and read 1 Thess. 4:14:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is not talking about the raptured Church for the very next four verses speaks of the rapture which is to take place. Sounds like many are trying to put the cart before the horse. It really takes some stretch of the imagination to see the truth before you and still believe the lie. Satan is laughing all the way to the end.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these word

So how do you explain those with Christ if this is talking about the rapture to come.

Let me give a simple explanation. The word says those who come with him are asleep in Him. So there is no confusion, Christ told the disciples that Lazarus was asleep but they didn't understand until He explained that Lazarus was dead according to the flesh but only sleeping in the spirit until the resurrection. So they are dead. Not raptured for as I have said the rapture is yet to come. They are the ones of the first resurrection who lost the heads in the tribulation. Thats who it is that comes with Him. They die and are immediately resurrected in the spirit but not in their glorified bodies. That comes at the very end from the last tribulation which Satan instigates once again. HE is put down and all the world is resurrected. Some to reward and others to eternal torment.

Christ doesn't touch down on the earth until the last day and here is why.

Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:18 ¶ For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

This doesn't happen at the end of the tribulation which the beast and the false prophet instigate at the behest of Satan. They are cast into the pit but Satan is locked down for His final forage into the waters of mankind. What Isa 66 describes is the end time tribulation. Don't believe it look at Rev 20.

here is the final tribulation from which occurs the rapture and just as the 16th verse says above the slain of the Lord shall be many. Now tell me you don't believe that it is Satan and not God who is responsible for the many slain.

I think I've said enough for you to search out the truth in what the scriptures say. There is no pre trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. Only a first resurrection of the dead, slain in the tribulation by Satan and his mennions The beast and the false prophet. Many accept the mark because they believe the lie that He tells. That is the mark, the lie.

hismessenger

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

AH! I gotcha. See, maybe that was my fault, "Hismessenger". I thought you were saying there WAS a pre trib rapture. You arent. And with that i agree with you on almost ALL you just said. This is a Dispensationalist forum subsection...so i guess i assumed you were also stating the same. YOu hadnt made YOURSELF clear. But now you have. Again i agree with almost ALL of that.

But could you expalin then WHat it means that "those alive" will be caught up together with them? There has to be some alive. So do the ones in the Trib, who are decapitated, immidiately go to be with Jesus(absent from the body present with the lord) And then When Jesus comes Back (those alive) Are instatnly Changed and caught up with him? so that is a rapture. And its at the LAST trumpet. So that would be the seventh right?


Annyway...This was a post about imminency. So Who agrees MANY things have to happen BEFORE Jesus comes back?

 

[Biblewriter]

There are several errors about what dispensationalists believe in this thread.

First, although some dispensationalists believe that apostasia means the rapture, only a few of them think that. I have examined the evidence, and concluded that there is a small possibility that it actually means that, but I have to agree with the majority that it means a mass defection from all profession of the faith once delivered to the saints. That is the meaning of out modern word apostasy, which is derived from this Greek word.

Second, again a few dispensationalists think that the day of the Lord is the tribulation, but that is also believed by only a few of them think that. When we review that many uses of this term in the scriptures (it occurs 20 times in scripture) it becomes obvious that this term refers to the time when the Lord comes in power and glory to render his wrath on the earth.

This day of the Lord will not come until after the great apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed. But the rapture is not the day of the Lord. Scripture describes the future coming of Christ in many places. But these descriptions contain glaringly apparent contradictions. If we conclude that the Lord is only coming one more time, we are forced to conclude that there is something wrong with the scriptures. But all of these apparent contradictions suddenly disappear when we realize that He is coming more than one more time. This is not a strange conclusion when we realize thaat no Old Testament scripture said He would come more than once. But these Old Testament prophecies also contained many apparent contradictions. Now that we have the New Testament, we see that the resolution to these apparent contradictions was that He was coming more than once.

To review a few of the more obvious of these contradictions:

Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it “A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?” Malachi 3:2 expands this by saying “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” And Amos 5:18-20 says “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him! Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” So we see that “the day of the Lord” is a “cruel” “day of vengeance,” a time so terrible that it can not be endured, that no one can stand when the Lord appears, and that there is “no brightness” in “the day of the Lord.”

This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” The questions “who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?” (Malachi 3:2) are radically different from the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” They are also radically different from the statement of Hebrews 9:28 that “To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” This contrast becomes even more stark when we compare the description of “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger” (Isaiah 13:9) with the words “Therefore comfort one another with these words” at the end of the passage describing our Lord’s coming for his own. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel12:11 the prophet was told that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.

The coming of the Lord in blessing for His own is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Here “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout” to gather his own to himself. He comes “with the voice of an archangel,” but no angels are mentioned. But in Matthew 25:31 “the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him.” Again, although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” (And as we have seen, this is after these same angels have gathered the wicked “and cast them into the furnace of fire.” - Matthew 13:50)

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that at that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

All these are indeed material differences between various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming But there is one that overshadows all the rest of them. In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading.

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) In the explanation of this parable (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

Now this is radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken from among the righteous. In Matthew 25, the righteous are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked remain, but are given no further chance to repent.

This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

Again we read in John 14:2-3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” But we also read in Jude 14-15, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15)

In the first of these, our Lord says “I will come again, and receive you to myself.” In the second, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.” In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself. In the second one He comes with them, for He “comes with ten thousands of His saints.” If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them. This is a simple matter of the meaning of words. No other interpretation is possible. These two scriptures, in and by themselves, do not indicate how long the delay between these two incidents might be, but they clearly indicate a sequence of events. Many imagine that this sequence is simply that He meets us on the way down, and then continues on down to the mount of Olives to execute judgment on the wicked. But this interpretation does not fit the scriptures we have already examined.

Looking again at John 14:2-3, we read, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
In this scripture, our Lord first refers to His Father’s house, saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” He then says that he is going there “to prepare a place for you.” From this statement it is explicitly plain that the place to which He was going “to prepare a place for you” was His “Father’s house.” But He said He was going there “to prepare a place for you” He was going to His “Father’s house,” “to prepare a place for you.” And that is the place from which he “will come again, and receive you unto myself.” But what is the purpose of this coming? “That where I am, there ye may be also.” This scripture does not present a picture of coming, picking us up along the way, and taking us with Himself to another place. It presents a picture of coming to get us and taking us back to where he came from, that is, His “Father’s house.” That is where He has gone “to prepare a place” for us. That is where He is, and that is where he will take us, for the stated purpose of this coming is “that where I am, there you may be also.”

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

"This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” The questions “who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?” (Malachi 3:2) are radically different from the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Well I agree, it IS radicaly different. However, couldnt it be rehtorical?
Like Q: "Who can stand when He appears?"

A:"those like him...his saints"

we all know that there ARE allot of rehtorical questions that in Scripture. Just a thought.

"Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

Well Couldnt the changing be in a twinkling of an eye? JESUS comming is what will be seen by ALL, Not us being changed to incorruptible. We will be standing firm becaue we will be like him.

"In the first of these, our Lord says “I will come again, and receive you to myself.” In the second, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.” In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself. In the second one He comes with them, for He “comes with ten thousands of His saints.” If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them. This is a simple matter of the meaning of words. No other interpretation is possible. These two scriptures, in and by themselves, do not indicate how long the delay between these two incidents might be, but they clearly indicate a sequence of events. Many imagine that this sequence is simply that He meets us on the way down, and then continues on down to the mount of Olives to execute judgment on the wicked. But this interpretation does not fit the scriptures we have already examined."

Are you positive "Holy ones/Hagios" means SAINTS, The elect? US? Jude is quoting Enoch(i dont trust the book of enoch as a refference...becasue it dates back to AFTER Judes time...maybe there was another book..I dont trust the one being used now) But ENOCH probably wouldnt have spoken about SAINTS of God. I take "Holy ones" to be angels. which fits with:

Deuteronomy 33:2 "He said, “The LORD came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us; he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousands of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand

And with:

2 Thesselonians 1:7 "and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels"


Well Thank You MUCH "BibleWriter" for all this. Like i have said before. Im not a Pre-trib beleiver. I think it has holes.

HOWEVER. It seems like i still see things BIBLICALY in defence of a pre trib rapture.

Like When Jesus says "One of the days of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:22) TO ME, that sems to be saying there is more then ONE. But then, in my searchings of scripture, i really cant solidly say there ACTUALLY is more then one. But this post helped a bit...to at least give me more to look into.

If you could but touch on the things i just posted though.

And also if you Could Explain to me, then if the LAST trumpet, is not the 7th trumpet in Revelation, then, where is BIblical proof for the first trumpets that precede the "LAST TRUMPET"?

Thank you again, Jesus Bless you. -STK

 

[Biblewriter]

Well I agree, it IS radicaly different. However, couldnt it be rehtorical?
Like Q: "Who can stand when He appears?"

A:"those like him...his saints"

we all know that there ARE allot of rehtorical questions that in Scripture. Just a thought.

Rhetorical questions are questions whose answer is so obvious that no answer is needed. "Woe to them that desire the day of the Lord" (Amos 5:18a) is not rhetorical. The rest of this passage contains rhetorical questions.

"To what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?" (Amos 5:18b-20)

Each of the questions in this passage has an answer considered so obvious that no answer is required. So the Holy Spirit is here saying that there would be no benefit for them in that day, and that day would be "darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it."

But between these two rhetorical questions is a non-rhetorical statement. "The day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him."

Well Couldnt the changing be in a twinkling of an eye? JESUS comming is what will be seen by ALL, Not us being changed to incorruptible. We will be standing firm becaue we will be like him.

I have to admit that there is a remote possibility that your thinking is correct here. But this interpretation seems straoned to me.

Are you positive "Holy ones/Hagios" means SAINTS, The elect? US? Jude is quoting Enoch(i dont trust the book of enoch as a refference...becasue it dates back to AFTER Judes time...maybe there was another book..I dont trust the one being used now) But ENOCH probably wouldnt have spoken about SAINTS of God. I take "Holy ones" to be angels. which fits with:

Deuteronomy 33:2 "He said, “The LORD came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us; he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousands of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand

And with:

2 Thesselonians 1:7 "and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels"

Again, I have to admit a possibility of this interpretation, but again, such an interpretation seems strained. Why would Enoch not have been speaking of those humans whom God considers holy?

Well Thank You MUCH "BibleWriter" for all this. Like i have said before. Im not a Pre-trib beleiver. I think it has holes.

HOWEVER. It seems like i still see things BIBLICALY in defence of a pre trib rapture.

Like When Jesus says "One of the days of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:22) TO ME, that sems to be saying there is more then ONE. But then, in my searchings of scripture, i really cant solidly say there ACTUALLY is more then one. But this post helped a bit...to at least give me more to look into.

If you could but touch on the things i just posted though.

And also if you Could Explain to me, then if the LAST trumpet, is not the 7th trumpet in Revelation, then, where is BIblical proof for the first trumpets that precede the "LAST TRUMPET"?

Thank you again, Jesus Bless you. -STK

I do not pretend to understand the term "at the last trump." But I feel certain that it could not refer to a scripture that was not even written until something on the order of forty years after this one was written.

The best explanation I have heard is that when the Roman armies were about to set forth on a march, three trumpets were sounded. The first one was an announcement to begin preparing to move out. The second one was an announcement to gather in their assigned marching ranks. And the third one was the command to actually begin to move.

As this was commonly known in the day this scripture was written, it seems quite plausible that this was what was being referred to. But I have never been completely satisfied with this explanation.

Although we discuss and often debate these things energetically, we need to remember that ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are interpretations. The fact of the rapture is clearly stated in scripture. But its timing is not. Anyone who says anything else is simply wresting scripture.

So we need to be tolerant of each other's views on this subject, as no one can righteously be called rebellious against the Word of God because they do not understand the meanings hidden in the explicitly stated scriptures.

I am satisfied that a clear understanding of the scriptures requires an acceptance of the fact of the pre-tribulation rapture. This is required, not only by an understanding of all the rapture statements in the Bible, but even more so by a general understanding of end time prophecy. For nearly half of the Old Testament is devoted to what will happen to Israel in the period we call the tribulation. All this is not about the church, it is very specifically about the physical land of Judea, (which is now called Israel) and what will happen to the people who will be inhabiting that land in that day. I have traced through the explicitly stated scriptures about this in the thread at the following link:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7548942-6/

But I have never called anyone evil for rejecting the viewpoint that the rapture will come before that time. Although I have, and still sometimes do, call someone's attitude about those who disagree with them on this subject an "evil" attitude.

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

Rhetorical questions are questions whose answer is so obvious that no answer is needed. "Woe to them that desire the day of the Lord" (Amos 5:18a) is not rhetorical. The rest of this passage contains rhetorical questions.

Well i didnt technically say Amos 5:18a, was a Rhetorical question. I Specificaly was talking about "who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?” (Malachi 3:2) As being rhetorical. I understand "Woe to them that desire the Day of the Lord" is NOT rhetorical.

"To what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?" (Amos 5:18b-20)

Each of the questions in this passage has an answer considered so obvious that no answer is required. So the Holy Spirit is here saying that there would be no benefit for them in that day, and that day would be "darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it."

But between these two rhetorical questions is a non-rhetorical statement. "The day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him."

"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" 1 Thessalonians 5:4

YES, Biblewriter, The Day of the Lord is Darkness. And the day will come like a thief for those in darkness. But WE have the Light, of The light that is comming, with the sword of his mouth to destroy wickedness and evil forever. PAUL, no knows what Malachi Did not. JESUS is the way to stand on the day of the LORD. Bieng IN Jesus.Abiding IN him. Jesus as the ARk, is the way to not be moved.

I have to admit that there is a remote possibility that your thinking is correct here. But this interpretation seems straoned to me.

Ok, Thats fine. But im glad you see the possiblity. I feel a pretrib rapture feels strained. So, Again...we are ALL looking through a Mirror darkly, and we ALL are made uniquely...so we will see things differently. Though The Holy spirit WILL lead al into ALL Truth. There is an appropriate time for each individual (i believe at least) to find out certain things. we ALL are not goign to know the same stuff at the same time.

Again, I have to admit a possibility of this interpretation, but again, such an interpretation seems strained. Why would Enoch not have been speaking of those humans whom God considers holy?

Well see THIS, i dont see how this can seem strained. Your not the only one who thinks so...but i couldnt see how Enoch, One who didnt know the mystery Through Christ Jesus, could have know it to be the Church. That makes no sense. Anyway, Why WOULDN'T Enoch have been talking about Angels?

I do not pretend to understand the term "at the last trump." But I feel certain that it could not refer to a scripture that was not even written until something on the order of forty years after this one was written.

The best explanation I have heard is that when the Roman armies were about to set forth on a march, three trumpets were sounded. The first one was an announcement to begin preparing to move out. The second one was an announcement to gather in their assigned marching ranks. And the third one was the command to actually begin to move.

As this was commonly known in the day this scripture was written, it seems quite plausible that this was what was being referred to. But I have never been completely satisfied with this explanation.

Haha. And you say MY therory was far fetched?(just having some fun, not meaning any offence )

Well I guess thats an answer to my question...but if thats the ONLY back up to having the last Trump, NOT be the 7th Trumpet of Revelation, i dont buy it one bit. Also thats going Extra bibical to back up the bible. The BIGGEST claim is Scripture backs up scripture. and I agree. It does. But then thats just a bit silly to start talking about the Romans.

And actually, IF it is talking about the Romans. That Last Trumpet was a call to move out for ATTACK...Not retreat. A rapture for 7 years is not a Call to Attack...if anythign the Trumpet call for a pre-trib rapture would be the FIRST trump call if we are basing it off of the Roman army.


. . .Oh, also, you said:

"But I feel certain that it could not refer to a scripture that was not even written until something on the order of forty years after this one was written."

Well ok, I see your point, but Paul, had a DEEP relationship with our LORD. He was caught up into heaven. and i am almost certain, that he never really spoke on ALL the thigns he did know. now maybe this is a bit reaching, but dont you think Paul could have known simmilar things that John Knew? Was John the ONLY Apostle who got this knowledge? Just a thought. I dont even know if I believe that fully...but its possible. God could have told Paul about his comming.

Although we discuss and often debate these things energetically, we need to remember that ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are interpretations. The fact of the rapture is clearly stated in scripture. But its timing is not. Anyone who says anything else is simply wresting scripture.

I agree with that there is DEFFINATELY a cathing up to Jesus mentione many times in Scripture. We call it the rapture. IT IS in there. Timing
, and exactly HOW that happens is the debate.

So we need to be tolerant of each other's views on this subject, as no one can righteously be called rebellious against the Word of God because they do not understand the meanings hidden in the explicitly stated scriptures.

I am satisfied that a clear understanding of the scriptures requires an acceptance of the fact of the pre-tribulation rapture. This is required, not only by an understanding of all the rapture statements in the Bible, but even more so by a general understanding of end time prophecy. For nearly half of the Old Testament is devoted to what will happen to Israel in the period we call the tribulation. All this is not about the church, it is very specifically about the physical land of Judea, (which is now called Israel) and what will happen to the people who will be inhabiting that land in that day. I have traced through the explicitly stated scriptures about this in the thread at the following link:

Well, I dissagree to a certain extent. But to go into it would change the whole topic...and might escalate into a war...umm here is a little article. I think everyone should read somethign fro mthis line of thinking. Mainly becasue its true The Bible is not a Jewish Book

But I have never called anyone evil for rejecting the viewpoint that the rapture will come before that time. Although I have, and still sometimes do, call someone's attitude about those who disagree with them on this subject an "evil" attitude.

Well Agreed. No one is Evil for rejecting a veiwpoint of another person. We are evil becasue we are BORN evil. ALL people are evil and if we aren't focusing on Jesus 24/7 abiding IN him, in his spirit, we are in the Flesh, and doing the works of the Devil. SO...Yes, thats why i cant stand Argumentative debate. We are having a dissagreement with point and counter points...but keeping it peacable. How it should ALWAYS be...to go and argue in the flesh, is well...Evil. So no one is evil for rejecting a veiw point, we are Evil allready.

Now on to this Veiw Point.

If there actually IS one, how can a pretrib rapture be imminent? Paul CLEARLY says that the gathering to Jesus(rapture) cant happen untill the man of Sin is revealed, and he exaults himself.(paraphrased) SO HOW can that be imminent? That means there needs to be a temple. Now there is argument to what the temple is...but if your going by Pauls words, and if you take pauls words to mean there is a pretrib rapture...HOW can there be one without a temple? There cant be. There needs to be a temple FIRST...so then the Rapture is NOT imminent(subject of the post) am I wrong?

 

[Biblewriter]

If there actually IS one, how can a pretrib rapture be imminent? Paul CLEARLY says that the gathering to Jesus(rapture) cant happen untill the man of Sin is revealed, and he exaults himself.(paraphrased) SO HOW can that be imminent? That means there needs to be a temple. Now there is argument to what the temple is...but if your going by Pauls words, and if you take pauls words to mean there is a pretrib rapture...HOW can there be one without a temple? There cant be. There needs to be a temple FIRST...so then the Rapture is NOT imminent(subject of the post) am I wrong?

On the rest of your post, we have basically agreed to disagree, so I will not address it further. But on this point, let's look at the passage in question.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-12)

Paul (actually, the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul) did not say that our gathering together unto him (which I agree is the rapture) would not come until after the falling away. He said that the day of the Lord would not come until after the falling away.

The day of the Lord is the day of Judgment, our gathering together unto him is not judgment, but blessing.

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

On the rest of your post, we have basically agreed to disagree, so I will not address it further.

hahah ok fair enough.

Paul (actually, the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul) did not say that our gathering together unto him (which I agree is the rapture) would not come until after the falling away. He said that the day of the Lord would not come until after the falling away.

The day of the Lord is the day of Judgment, our gathering together unto him is not judgment, but blessing.

I agree, it WILL be blessing. The day of the Lord is a day were we will escape judgment in wrath, by being gathered to Him, and never again to be seperated.

"And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming." 1 John 2:28


Why Would John have to say, "and not shrink from him in shame at his comming", If this was a secret Pre trib sort of thing? We wouldn't have to shrink from him in shame if His comming was a Pre-trib comming. According to pretrib, we will all be instantly seized unto him into the sky. SO how would John think anyone would shrink back from him? According to Pretrib, we wont have the ability to shrink back, because anyone who does not have jesus IN them at the time...wont know that he came IN the moment.

What John is saying is, to Abide in him, Stay obedient to ALL of Christs words, so that when He DOES come in all his glory with the sword of his mouth we will not go shrink back and hide under a rock for forsaking him...

"When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." Colossians 3:4

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2


"In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him." 1 John 4:17

Have confidence on the Day of Judgement and NOT SHRINK BACK In Shame at His Comming.

 

[Jazer]

Some say that, the Falling away, is not a rebellion, but a "Rapture" with out even going into the greek, Paul allready tells you that it is not the case.

WOW that is AMAZING. The falling away is the apostasy (apostasia).
Your statement that the rapture is the apostasy is coming from the apostate people.

That Day WONT come unless the falling away happens, and The anti-christ makes himself to be God IN the temple. But there IS no temple.

But there is a temple mount and all they need is a tent. The Sanhedrin is ready to go. They can start the sacrifice at any time. The Priests are trained, the vessels are prepared. They say all they need is permission from the temple mount authority.

Also there are people who say they are getting the temple ready to build. All the peices will be ready so they can build it in 3 1/2 years.

there is NO man of Lawlessness. There can be no Rapture. So the Rapture is NOT imminent. It cant be. There are still some things that need to happen, which has not, yet.

The man of lawlessness gives permission for the sacrifices to begin. This starts the Tribulation and begins WW3. The Christians are taken out in the first nuclear exchange. The true church will be gone, but the dead, harlot, apostate church will still be here and the world will not know the difference. With the true church gone they can begin a peace treaty. The world will be desperate for an end to the destruction.

the Mystery CAN"T come to pass untill the last trumpet.

No time has to take place between the "last trumpet" and the rapture. Paul said the trumpet will sound.