Question about EO understanding of Heaven/Hell both being God's presence

[Aeyamar]

Hello TAW.

A couple years ago, I read that a common EO interpretation of the afterlife is not a matter of going to one of two different places, but instead, everyone experiences the presence of God. The differences in individual souls will determine if God's presence is an eternally blissful or tormenting experience. I wanted to ask if anyone could provide writings of early church fathers discussing or defining this belief? Additionally, is there any source that provides a history of this theology?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know St Isaac of Syria taught that. that the fires of hell is the scourge of God's love.

and when we say it's not two separate places, we don't mean that the saints will be all happy standing next to sinners writhing in agony. what makes heaven and hell what they are is the same, and that is God's Love, but certainly corrupt sinners would not be in heaven because their corruption would cause it to cease being heaven and because if the love of God is torment to them, imagine that with the love of all of the saints as well! so they are distinct places, they should just be thought of as spiritual conditions.

hope that helps at least a little.

 

[Aeyamar]

I know St Isaac of Syria taught that. that the fires of hell is the scourge of God's love.

and when we say it's not two separate places, we don't mean that the saints will be all happy standing next to sinners writhing in agony. what makes heaven and hell what they are is the same, and that is God's Love, but certainly corrupt sinners would not be in heaven because their corruption would cause it to cease being heaven and because if the love of God is torment to them, imagine that with the love of all of the saints as well! so they are distinct places, they should just be thought of as spiritual conditions.

hope that helps at least a little.

Thanks, that was quite helpful. I've been having a devil of a time looking them up, reverse searching saints by teaching is difficult.

If anyone knows of any other church fathers, keep replying.

 

[ArmyMatt]

this isn't a church father quote or anything, just something to think about. in Scripture, God's loving presence and glory have always been symbolized and shown by fire (Burning Bush, eyes of flame, tongues of fire, pillar of fire, etc) so why would hell, the lake of fire, be any different?

food for thought

 

[michaeldimmickjr]

Hello TAW.

A couple years ago, I read that a common EO interpretation of the afterlife is not a matter of going to one of two different places, but instead, everyone experiences the presence of God. The differences in individual souls will determine if God's presence is an eternally blissful or tormenting experience. I wanted to ask if anyone could provide writings of early church fathers discussing or defining this belief? Additionally, is there any source that provides a history of this theology?

Nothing exists outside of God. Whether in "Heaven" or "Hell" it will be in His presence.

In Christ,

Michael

 

[michaeldimmickjr]

Hello TAW.

A couple years ago, I read that a common EO interpretation of the afterlife is not a matter of going to one of two different places, but instead, everyone experiences the presence of God. The differences in individual souls will determine if God's presence is an eternally blissful or tormenting experience. I wanted to ask if anyone could provide writings of early church fathers discussing or defining this belief? Additionally, is there any source that provides a history of this theology?

I also read an article a few years ago and I think this is it. I am about to leave work and I don't have time to read it again, but skimming through, I think this was it. Hope it helps.

In Christ,

Michael

 

[orthocajun]

ArmyMatt is right about scripture describing God as a consuming fire.

First let me remind that our Lord Jesus said in St. John 6:51-59 ..."Most assuredly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Verse 35 of this same chapter the Lord explains how one must come in faith.

This is why Orthodox Christians pray for the departed.

Here are a couple fathers with some things to consider.

St Hiliary of Poitiers , "What we say concerning the reality of Christ's nature within us would be foolish and impious were we not taught by His very words. There is no room left for doubt about the reality of His flesh and blood, because we have both the witness of His words and our won faith. Thus, when we eat and drink these elements we are in Christ and Christ is in us." (On the Trinity, Book VIII, 14)

St John Chrysostom (Homily 47:2) teaches we must not understand the sacrament carnally as according to laws of physical nature, but spiritually (St John 6:63) perceiving a true but mystical presence of Christ.

Then my question would be, what happens to those who don't even get resurrected because they have no life?
Of course God raises the dead (no life). But what do they have if no life?

 

[Aeyamar]

I also read an article a few years ago and I think this is it. I am about to leave work and I don't have time to read it again, but skimming through, I think this was it. Hope it helps.

In Christ,

Michael

Thanks, the article was quite helpful.

 

[Protomartyr Alban]

"Christ assures that:
- all men are saved from DEATH (at Second Coming)
- all men are granted to see Him in Glory (at Second Coming)
But this identical Salvation will not benefit those who have desired and practiced Death and Shame. It will harm them, like Sunlight harms diseased eyes (St Gregory the Theologian). Not the sun that intends ill, but the man who willfully refused healing, and repeatedly poked at his eye (nous) through repeated acts of freedom (will) and would not heed God's voice of love (conscience).
We may deny him.
But he will not deny us.
Meaning, all WILL be raised and see God's Glory. For some, it will be eros and delight. For others, it will be mourning and darkness.
But all is of Divine Love.
There is no malice in God."
~ This was said by a monk I know.

Hell is God's love - those who are "burning" in hell are "burning" because they do not want God's love.

Think of the Eucharist - it unites us to Christ, but if we partake unworthily, it harms us. How can what is good harm us? We are not good, and our souls need to be loosed from our sins, lest the goodness of God, the love of God, harms us.

I hope this helps.

 

[ArmyMatt]

welcome to TAW Alban!

 

[Protomartyr Alban]

Thank you very much Glad to be here.