Question About Calvinism & False Converts

[BlackSheepBaptist]

Hello, I have, as the title says, a question for Calvinists about false converts and, specifically, how they relate to the fifth point of Calvinism: Perseverance of the Saints. Okay, here it is, Reformed theology says that you must "persevere to the end to be saved", right? So, if you're saved, you won't "fall away from the faith" by becoming an atheist/agnostic or joining a different religion, etc., right? You also cannot lose your salvation, because God has already chosen you to be saved before he even created the world, right? So what do you do with people who "seemingly" (in the Reformed mindset) have faith, but then stop believing? These people are classified as "false converts", correct? And don't you guys always go to 1 John 2:19 to explain this phenomenon? "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." So you take this verse to mean that everyone who says they have faith, and seems to believe and be saved, who then falls away are people who God decreed would do that in order for it to be manifested that they were never really saved in the first place (unless it's someone who falls away, but then comes back later, like one of John Piper's sons? Does he have more than one son? I don't know), true? Assuming that I understand your position and have characterized it correctly, this is my question: Do you believe that it's impossible for someone who's a false convert to die before they fall away, and thereby have their false conversion manifested? Do you think that everyone who has died having persevered in the faith is definitely saved, or that some (or maybe many) of them could have actually been false converts who just died before their false conversion was made manifest? Has God decreed that every false convert will be made manifest before they die, or not? I hope my question makes sense, and I appreciate whatever response you have. Thank you.

 

[Hammster]

Do you believe that it's impossible for someone who's a false convert to die before they fall away, and thereby have their false conversion manifested?

No. False converts die all of the time, I suppose.

Do you think that everyone who has died having persevered in the faith is definitely saved, or that some (or maybe many) of them could have actually been false converts who just died before their false conversion was made manifest?

False converts don't persevere in the faith. They have no faith to persevere in.

Has God decreed that every false convert will be made manifest before they die, or not?

I would not know exactly. But I'm sure false converts die all of the time.

I hope my question makes sense, and I appreciate whatever response you have. Thank you.

 

[Avid]

..., this is my question: Do you believe that it's impossible for someone who's a false convert to die before they fall away, and thereby have their false conversion manifested? ...

They snatch at consolation, not waiting till it be given them; and foolishly draw their comfort from the law that wounded them...
...they are never shaken out of themselves and their own righteousness, nor brought forward to Jesus Christ.
Thomas Boston (1676−1732)

You shall have them boast of their Faith and Hope in God's Mercy, when they lie upon their death−bed; yea, you shall have them speak as confidently of their salvation, as if they had served God all their days: when the truth is, the bottom of this their boasting is, because they have no bands in their death.
John Bunyan (1628−1688)

Psalm 73
3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. ​

.

 

[twin1954]

Perseverance of the saints is fine but a better way to put it would be preservation of the saints. The Lord keeps those whom He has saved in faith, Jude 1, 1Pet. 1:5. We no more keep ourselves than we save ourselves. Many false converts die with a profession of faith on their lips. They are deceived unto the end. Saving faith isn't looking back at something that happened or to an experience but simply resting wholly in Christ right now.

 

[Avid]

Perseverance of the saints is fine but a better way to put it would be preservation of the saints...

This has been a source of confusion to me about the Calvinist points, because every time I hear anyone who says they believe that, they will talk about Preservation, and not Perseverance. This is not a new thing, and these points have been espoused for a long time. I had heard this said before, and don't understand why anyone thinks those who are preserved would not persevere.

In one of these discussion threads, a member repeatedly referenced the "overcome" and "endure to the end" aspects mention by the LORD and His Apostles in the scriptures. If we are Christians, if we have God's grace, if we are preserved by God, the scriptures show that we will, also, PERSEVERE to the end. That means we do not return to sin, to the world, and the pursuit of the things that we had as former lusts.

That, also, means we don't throw off our profession, as warned by the writer of Hebrews. I have heard people who were afraid to "admit" they had not been made a new creation, because they thought that was not holding fast to their profession. This is not what it meant.

Hebrews 4
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 10
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
​

It meant to turn back to the world because it was too much to continue and endure to the end as commanded. We are warned about that, and, if we are made a new creation in Christ, we are empowered against that.

The greatest thing we can do in this life is to suffer for the LORD, and to be martyred for the LORD. It is too much for those who do NOT have the LORD in their heart, have NOT God's grace, and have NO hope or experience in these matters.

Romans 3
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Matthew 10
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

II Corinthians 1
13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

Hebrews 6
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

I Peter 1
13 ¶ Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
​

So, if Jesus Christ is with us to the end, and the Holy Spirit of God is dwelling in our hearts (Matthew 28:20, II Corinthians 1:22,) we should have the leading and ability to stay away from the things that would draw us back into the the life of the flesh, and pursuit of things of the world.

I John 2
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
​

That is the significance of the crucifixion of the flesh being an ongoing thing for one committed to living for the LORD.

I Corinthians 9
24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
​

Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Colossians 3
5 ¶ Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

I Corinthians 15
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
​

What sort of person does this create?

I Corinthians 15
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

I John 2
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I John 3
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I John 5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
​

May God bless His word, and the use of it to direct the the hearts of men.

 

[Skala]

Hello, I have, as the title says, a question for Calvinists about false converts and, specifically, how they relate to the fifth point of Calvinism: Perseverance of the Saints. Okay, here it is, Reformed theology says that you must "persevere to the end to be saved", right? So, if you're saved, you won't "fall away from the faith" by becoming an atheist/agnostic or joining a different religion, etc., right? You also cannot lose your salvation, because God has already chosen you to be saved before he even created the world, right? So what do you do with people who "seemingly" (in the Reformed mindset) have faith, but then stop believing? These people are classified as "false converts", correct? And don't you guys always go to 1 John 2:19 to explain this phenomenon? "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." So you take this verse to mean that everyone who says they have faith, and seems to believe and be saved, who then falls away are people who God decreed would do that in order for it to be manifested that they were never really saved in the first place (unless it's someone who falls away, but then comes back later, like one of John Piper's sons? Does he have more than one son? I don't know), true? Assuming that I understand your position and have characterized it correctly, this is my question: Do you believe that it's impossible for someone who's a false convert to die before they fall away, and thereby have their false conversion manifested? Do you think that everyone who has died having persevered in the faith is definitely saved, or that some (or maybe many) of them could have actually been false converts who just died before their false conversion was made manifest? Has God decreed that every false convert will be made manifest before they die, or not? I hope my question makes sense, and I appreciate whatever response you have. Thank you.

False converts never have true, actual saving faith to begin with, thus they are never, at any time, truly justified/saved. Thus, it is impossible to "die before falling away, and thus be saved", because the faith they claim to have has been a false faith the entire time.

In other words, they are false converts, not temporary true converts.

 

[Winman]

Perseverance and Preservation are very different things. Perseverance is nothing but works salvation, a person only feels assured when they are obedient to God's commandments. Of course, this leads to the question, How obedient must you be to be saved? No one has ever been able to answer this. This is the house built on the sand that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7;

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

This is the famous passage where Jesus says not everyone who calls him "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven. So much for Lordship Salvation.

What did these false converts boast of to prove they were believers? WORKS. They believed they were saved because they called Jesus "Lord, Lord" and did many wonderful works in his name, yet they were as lost as a turkey on Thanksgiving Day.

Note how Jesus then describes two kinds of persons, one who builds a house on a rock, and another the sand. When the storm comes, those who depend on Jesus alone to save them will stand, but those who stand on their works will fall.

Preservation is altogether different. I am not saved because I am always faithful to Jesus (I'm not), I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me. HUGE difference. Jesus said, "and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jhn 6:37). I am depending on the ROCK, I am depending on the direct promise of Jesus Christ himself that if I come to him, completely depending on him alone to save me, that he will in no wise cast me out.

Build your house on the rock, not those shifting sands of works.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Perserverance of the saints is uber scriptural. No, we don't work our way to heaven. But, whenever the roaring lion assails us, Christ helps us to overcome him. We perservere because He fights our battles for us.

 

[Avid]

Perserverance of the saints is uber scriptural. No, we don't work our way to heaven. But, whenever the roaring lion assails us, Christ helps us to overcome him. We perservere because He fights our battles for us.

Also, we persevere because to give-in to the enemy is to abandon the LORD, and to abandon the grace He has afforded for our continuance in His right paths.

To persevere includes overcoming the temptation to turn back to the weak elements of flesh, self, the world, and desire to have something good in this life at the cost of what we sought to have in the next life.
.