Question about a married man who gets a vasectomy? Is this a sin?

beechy said:

I'm not insisting God do anything. By using contraception, I would simply be preparing myself and my life to be the best blessing I can for the blessings that will be my children. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that says that is a problem.

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No. What you are doing is deliberately taking steps to prevent God from blessing you because you think YOU are a better judge of what and when than He is. That is a lack of faith.

Well, I have that operation. At the time I wasn't a believer. I'm not shure that I would do that now. However, it seems to me that Gods will cannot be subverted. If it turned out that God wanted my seed, he would certainly be able to reverse anything I'd done to the contrary.

JunkYardDog said:

No. What you are doing is deliberately taking steps to prevent God from blessing you because you think YOU are a better judge of what and when than He is. That is a lack of faith.

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Do you think the Catholic church's Natural Family Planning method is ok?

JunkYardDog said:

No. What you are doing is deliberately taking steps to prevent God from blessing you because you think YOU are a better judge of what and when than He is. That is a lack of faith.

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Where in the Bible does it say that taking the time or steps to prepare your life to receive a child demonstrates a lack of faith in God? I just don't understand this leap you're making ... God can judge when you're ready, but why does that mean He doesn't want you to be able to have a say in when you get pregnant?

Having unprotected sex when you cannot support a baby is a very grave sin. Chance is not controlled by God, you cannot roll a dice and say, oh it rolled a 5, thats Gods will!! You are not having faith in God, you are having faith in chance, and making chance your God, that is idolism and gambling, both sins against God.
Condoms are on average 97% affective, condoms and spermacide together are about 99.7% affective. To say killing sperm is a sin, is to say wet dreams are a sin, which we have no control over. Of course theres that whole thing about many many different ways to do it, but lets just ignore all that, call kids a blessing, and get crankin! It wont matter when were out on the street with 15 kids, cas there all blessing even tho marys dieing of syfalis cas we dont have medical insurance, and there about to take the other 14 away and give them to other families. Well we could have used protection, but that would be denying a "blessing" (making a doctrine of one verse, ha!). So i guess what we should have done was not have sex, then go commit fornication with the neighbor. So we shouldnt have married yet? well, compared to have used protection, thats just not as apetizing when both arent sinful paths, is not not getting married just the same as using protection? either way your denying the blessings.

Shizzle said:

So we shouldnt have married yet? well, compared to have used protection, thats just not as apetizing when both arent sinful paths, is not not getting married just the same as using protection? either way your denying the blessings.

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Not only is it not appetizing, it's just not a good idea. A marriage doesn't get strong overnight. It doesn't become a good, solid marriage when it's consummated on the wedding night. It comes through living together, experiencing one another, going through hardships together, and all the while falling deeper and deeper in love. That's why I think you should wait to have kids.

You say:

Shizzle said:

Having unprotected sex when you cannot support a baby is a very grave sin.

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Provide biblical sources for this contention.

You say:

Chance is not controlled by God, you cannot roll a dice and say, oh it rolled a 5, thats Gods will!! You are not having faith in God, you are having faith in chance, and making chance your God, that is idolism and gambling, both sins against God.

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This is what the Bible says about that:

Proverbs 16:33
33 The lot [dice] is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

You say:

Condoms are on average 97% affective, condoms and spermacide together are about 99.7% affective.

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Provide evidence. Any claims of this kind by the industry are couched very carefully as "used properly." Most times condoms are not "used properly." The actual rate is in the high 70s.

You say:

To say killing sperm is a sin,

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Straw man. No one said anything like this.

Chajara said:

Not only is it not appetizing, it's just not a good idea. A marriage doesn't get strong overnight. It doesn't become a good, solid marriage when it's consummated on the wedding night. It comes through living together, experiencing one another, going through hardships together, and all the while falling deeper and deeper in love. That's why I think you should wait to have kids.

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That's what the people who shack before marriage up say, but their divorce rate is higher. The problem is people who are not taught BEFORE marriage about their obligations and responsibilities. For thousands of years marriages happened often between people who barely knew each other, but because of such teaching the divorce rate was WAY lower than now. An example is Tevya and his wife in "Fiddler on the Roof" where they were singing to one another about "Do you love me?" and the words come up that they married and LEARNED to love. It certainly worked better than the current system. Experiencing "going through hardships together" only works if there is an original and continuing self-discipline to keep one's vows. If you have that when you TAKE the vows, you will survive it. If not, the chances are low. Take it from one married 36 years.

You say:

Having unprotected sex when you cannot support a baby is a very grave sin.

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Provide biblical sources for this contention.

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i do provide logical support in the rest of the post, if i wait till the end to say my conclusion theres a higher chance of being ignored.

Provide evidence. Any claims of this kind by the industry are couched very carefully as "used properly." Most times condoms are not "used properly." The actual rate is in the high 70s.

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lol, u provide evidence, u did the exact same thing as me but i did provide a site 29 posts earlier that was completely ignored.
http://www.avert.org/condoms.htm

Straw man. No one said anything like this.

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yeh but they were going to, so i said it to save time.

Proverbs 16:33
33 The lot [dice] is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

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no, how do you get dice from that, read it in context. That whole chapters talking about the worth of things, and if you have this and this its still better to control yourself. More like, "the things are given to you, but in getting rid of them is the lord."

Petrarch said:

Sure, you are right. Gluttony is not of faith. However, those "mundane" taks that I described do not serve any purpose other than survival, and do not inherently glorify God.

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And the continued survival of the human race doesn't glorify God?! ALL of life is spiritual. As far as God is concerned there is no such thing as 'mundane'. God's interest is not confined to the religious or mystically spiritual. God created every aspect of life (including the tilling and keeping of the garden) and declared it all to be 'good'.

Simonline.

I think that if one partner is contemplating sterilization, it's sinful not to discuss it thoroughly with the other partner, taking his/her input into full consideration.

It's also sinful to enter into a marriage with someone without revealing that you have had a prior sterilization.

There can be valid reasons not to procreate--hereditary illness, for example. It would be better for carriers of Tay-Sachs or other fatal illnesses to adopt children rather than bring a terminally ill child into the world.

In the case of subsequent marriages, a man (or a woman) might have already procreated, and might have children for whom he/she is still responsible.

JunkYardDog said:

That's what the people who shack before marriage up say, but their divorce rate is higher. The problem is people who are not taught BEFORE marriage about their obligations and responsibilities. For thousands of years marriages happened often between people who barely knew each other, but because of such teaching the divorce rate was WAY lower than now. An example is Tevya and his wife in "Fiddler on the Roof" where they were singing to one another about "Do you love me?" and the words come up that they married and LEARNED to love. It certainly worked better than the current system. Experiencing "going through hardships together" only works if there is an original and continuing self-discipline to keep one's vows. If you have that when you TAKE the vows, you will survive it. If not, the chances are low. Take it from one married 36 years.

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Well, I can only speak from my own experience, but if I had married the first guy I'd liked or even married the guy I dated before the one I'm with now, I'd be in trouble. You have to experience things to learn. But then, I think you should "shack up" at least in some way prior to marriage. Otherwise you both might be in for nasty surprises when you're suddenly living together and dealing with bills and whatnot.

My current boyfriend and I "lived together" for a couple of months, because he's Canadian and I'm American and he had to come a long way to see me, and I had to go a long way to be with him. We basically stayed at each others' houses (both of us are still with parents while we deal with college). I learned more about relationships and being on your own and dealing with problems that can come up in a marriage with someone I've been dating for only a few months now than I did when I dated my best friend for 6 months, and that was a pretty intense relationship for a couple of kids in high school. Of course, if you're worried that you'll fall into all sorts of sin this way, don't do it, but I personally learned a lot from it. Ahem, anyway, no more derail.

I do agree about the self-discipline, but not everyone is born with self-discipline. I had to learn it, because when I first started dating I'd get mad over the stupidest things and have the most ridiculous expectations you could imagine, yet at the same time I put up with a ton of verbal abuse. However, now that I've been through several relationships, I've matured and learned how to communicate and argue in a way that solves problems instead of just creating resentment. My patience has increased exponentially (it takes a lot of patience when you're dating someone a lot different than you, let me tell you ). However, I'm still not ready for marriage yet. And when I'm married, I won't be ready for children for years.

Again, I believe that if you choose to open yourself up to the blessing of children, you'd better make sure that you're going to be a blessing of a parent. And, since I know what it's like to have sucky parents who didn't know what the heck they were doing, I'm going to make sure I can be a good parent myself. I won't have any of this "Oh, whatever happens happens. We'll get along somehow." My family is going to do better than get along, because I'm going to suck up as much knowledge and experience as I can and then when I have my kids I'm going to use every bit of it. I believe that it's a parent's responsibility and obligation when they choose to have children to know what they're doing.

Shizzle said:

i do provide logical support in the rest of the post, if i wait till the end to say my conclusion theres a higher chance of being ignored.

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If you are going to define something as sin, you must provide BIBLICAL support. If you are stating the opinion that it is merely irresponsible, logical support will do. Still waiting for Scriptures on this being sin.

lol, u provide evidence, u did the exact same thing as me but i did provide a site 29 posts earlier that was completely ignored.
http://www.avert.org/condoms.htm

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The statistics you listed are nowhere on this site. Moreover, this site is agenda-driven. They ara a sodomite site devoted to promoting condoms as the solution to AIDS.

I looked around and I found I misspoke myself. I said high 70s, but maybe my figures were older. However, it is more like between 86 and 88%. Go to Google and type in "condoms" and "actual failure rates" and you will find several sites reflecting this range. Many of these sites don't have an agenda, either.

yeh but they were going to, so i said it to save time.

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Now, oh, great swami, what will "they'" say next?

no, how do you get dice from that, read it in context. That whole chapters talking about the worth of things, and if you have this and this its still better to control yourself. More like, "the things are given to you, but in getting rid of them is the lord."

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Perhaps you don't know this but Proverbs is just that, a series of proverbs. Some are one line, others go on many verses. They are not necesarily related to one another by proximity. One may talk of one thing, the next may completely change the subject. Therfore there is no "context" in the usual sense. Here the word lot is the same for a gambling stone (a primitive dice).

1486 gowral (go-rawl'); or (shortened) goral (go-ral'); from an unused root meaning to be rough (as stone); properly, a pebble, i.e. a lot (small stones being used for that purpose); figuratively, a portion or destiny as determined by lot:
KJV-- lot.

In Psalm 22: 18 this word was used as the prophecy to describe the Roman soldiers who "cast lots" for Jesus vesture. There are a couple of other words translated "lot" on the OT (KJV) which fit more with what you said. However, this one is specific to gaming and even to obtaining God's will -- ever hear of Urim and Thummim?

JunkYardDog said:

No. What you are doing is deliberately taking steps to prevent God from blessing you because you think YOU are a better judge of what and when than He is. That is a lack of faith.

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Maybe you'll answer my question this time:

Why don't you trust God to be a better judge of when to cross the road than you? Why don't you just say a quick prayer, shut your eyes, and step out? Lack of faith?

I'll say it again, when you have sex and don't use birth control you are not putting God in control, you are choosing to have lots of children.

JunkYardDog said:

That's what the people who shack before marriage up say, but their divorce rate is higher. The problem is people who are not taught BEFORE marriage about their obligations and responsibilities. For thousands of years marriages happened often between people who barely knew each other, but because of such teaching the divorce rate was WAY lower than now. .

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Hmm.

One of the main reasons divorce rates were lower was because women couldn't divorce their husbands and the relationships were unequal in such a way that it would be the women who wanted to get out.

ebia said:

Hmm.

One of the main reasons divorce rates were lower was because women couldn't divorce their husbands and the relationships were unequal in such a way that it would be the women who wanted to get out.

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This was true in some cultures, but not nearly all. The lower divorce rate also was evident in the one where women did have these freedoms.

ebia said:

Maybe you'll answer my question this time:

Why don't you trust God to be a better judge of when to cross the road than you? Why don't you just say a quick prayer, shut your eyes, and step out? Lack of faith?

I'll say it again, when you have sex and don't use birth control you are not putting God in control, you are choosing to have lots of children.

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Once again, like beechy, your anti-child mentality betrays you. You simply cannot make an argument with comparing having a child with some kind of disaster. Why not try it this way: Why don't you trust God as a better guide than you to "coincidentally" come into the blessing of $1,000 extra? The reason you don't use those comparisons is that you DON'T BELIEVE GOD when He says children are a BLESSING, and not an accident waiting to happen.

I know a number of couples who didn't use birth control who did not have "lots of children." You are saying that having children is purely mechanistic. The Bible says otherwise.

Hmmm. You say one thing, the Bible says another. Whom will i beleive? Hmmm.

You don't think it's possible to step into a street blindfolded, per ebia's example, and make it safely across? Are you going to get hit by a car every time? Why don't you just trust in God?

JunkYardDog said:

I know a number of couples who didn't use birth control who did not have "lots of children." You are saying that having children is purely mechanistic. The Bible says otherwise.

Hmmm. You say one thing, the Bible says another. Whom will i beleive? Hmmm.

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There are people who try and try and try to get pregnant without ever succeeding, and there are people who use birth control and get pregnant anyway.

No one said having children is "purely mechanistic". Are you denying biology is involved at all? I think a couple has some God given control over whether and when they get pregnant, but the rest is up to God.

Does anyone posting here really believe that, if God has decided that I should have a baby, that I can stop that from happening?

We all know that God can make a virgin pregnant. So, if He can do that, I figure that He can make a married woman on the pill pregnant, if He so chooses.

I am not arguing for or against birth control. I'm just astonished at how much power some of you seem to think we humans have, and how little power some of you seem to think God has.

bliz said:

Does anyone posting here really believe that, if God has decided that I should have a baby, that I can stop that from happening?

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Yes. There are numerous times in the Bible where God's desire and intentions (and even blessings) were thwarted by the decisions and unbelief of men.