Quest for church unity

[Cajun Huguenot]

McW,

Thanks for the list. It is a very good one.

I hold the Puritans in high regard, but I do find them to be overly narrow on many points. They strongly disagreed with John Calvin's view of the Sabbath, and I have moved closer to Calvin and farther from them, though I remain somewhere inbetween the two.

The Puritans tended to over react at times. They made marriage a secular act, because the Roman Catholics considered it a sacrament. The Puritans did not allow for wedding bands, Christmas celebrations, Musical instruments in worship, and the made the Lord's Day (IMHO) more of a burdon than a blessing.

We are 400 years removed from their times and we still are blessed by many of the things they did and taught. I could easily write a number of pages praising the Puritans as well, but those above areas where I think they went astray.

I do believe that they were too narrow in their limitations. I prefer to make the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed as the drop dead minimal standards by which I am willing to associate and call another "brother" or "sister."

I do believe this is in the spirit of Paul's epistles. Many of those epistles were written to "brethren" who had very serious doctrinal and moral issues. Paul uses his letters to correct those errors, but he still regards the erring members in those erring churches as brethren.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

McW,

Thanks for you last post. I can understand your feelings for Packer, we have strongest feelings when we feel betrayed by someone close and dear to us. That is quite normal.

I agree that it is most important for new Christians to spend most of their time in the Scriptures and reading and studing under sound teachers. I would never argue with that point.

I have been a believer in Christ since I turned seven (39 years) and I've been a Calvinist for 21 years. During those years I have read and studied a good deal, and I still do so today. I know what I believe and in whom I believe, and I am comfortable reading "other" systems.

I do not recommend that to everyone, but it has been useful for, my ability to speak to others who are not Reformed or Christian. Lately my chief (non-bible) reading has been in John Calvin and in the Church Fathers, but I still read other things too.

I would never read only non-Christian or heretical stuff. hat would be a mistake. we have to stay close to the light of truth so that we can more easily see the lies of the devil.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[McWilliams]

Well, we cannot get overconfident and think for a minute that we have arrived! Here I am still learning daily and seeing new truths as I continue my trips through the scriptures in lengthy daily readings! Everytime I read I seem to find new and amazing things to impact my thinking or life! It is a continually changing process! I do try to limit my extrabiblical reading but some are so rich with His truths!
I believe the bible is as true and applicable today as when written! We cannot think, Oh well, that was true for them but not for me in these times! That is error!
As long as we seek Him He is willing to teach us and increase our light and opportunities to share His truth!
I thought I became a christian when 8 yo, recommitted my life at 40 but then when coming to the doctrines of grace when almost 70, I now realize it was all so limited as compared to the doctrines of grace!
Blessings to you Kenith!
Soli deo gloria!
'For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect! Mt 24:24
'

 

[Hackett]

CH & McW I have been reading your exchange this afternoon and it has given me much to consider. Very good discussion. I am blessed to be part of a reformed church and am still learning about the doctrines of Grace. It seems TOO big for my head at times.... but not for my heart. I may not have the eloquence of speech you both display but can certainly follow and agree with your line of discussion.

Thanks for taking the time to verbalize your thoughts on this topic.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Well, we cannot get overconfident and think for a minute that we have arrived! Here I am still learning daily and seeing new truths as I continue my trips through the scriptures in lengthy daily readings! Everytime I read I seem to find new and amazing things to impact my thinking or life! It is a continually changing process! I do try to limit my extrabiblical reading but some are so rich with His truths!
I believe the bible is as true and applicable today as when written! We cannot think, Oh well, that was true for them but not for me in these times! That is error!
As long as we seek Him He is willing to teach us and increase our light and opportunities to share His truth!
I thought I became a christian when 8 yo, recommitted my life at 40 but then when coming to the doctrines of grace when almost 70, I now realize it was all so limited as compared to the doctrines of grace!
Blessings to you Kenith!
Soli deo gloria!
'For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect! Mt 24:24
'

Dear McW,

Amen and amen!!!!

Our Thrice Holy God and His Holy Word is more than we can fathom in a hunded life times.

I have throughly enjoyed this discussion. I know that SR is a refuge for those of us that hold to Reformed doctrine. We disagree on a number of things, but having come to an understanding of the DOctrines of Grace, we know how great a salvation we have in Christ Jesus.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Nadiine]

CH & McW I have been reading your exchange this afternoon and it has given me much to consider. Very good discussion. I am blessed to be part of a reformed church and am still learning about the doctrines of Grace. It seems TOO big for my head at times.... but not for my heart. I may not have the eloquence of speech you both display but can certainly follow and agree with your line of discussion.

Thanks for taking the time to verbalize your thoughts on this topic.

I agree with you here - and I agree with McW in mentioning that none of us have arrived - & I agree with Cajun that we have room for disagreement in non essentials.
If we think we've finally learned all there is to know & have all the answers to everything, then what could we possibly learn anymore?

I like how Paul puts it:

1Cr 8:1-2
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.​

 

[Hackett]

Amen.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I don't know a lot about ECT. I do know that Reformed theologian J.I Packer signed off on it, and that Reformed theologian R.C. Sproul was strongly opposed to it, but that is the limit of my knowledge on that issue.

Being quite the literate guy, you're probably already aware that Sproul has two books on this topic: Faith Alone and a sequel Getting the Gospel Right. I found both of those books valuable not only for their commentary on ECT (of which I was blissfully unaware until reading these books!), but also to shape my understanding of the doctrines of Grace. I read these right around the time I was realizing that Reformed theology was correct.

 

[Nadiine]

Being quite the literate guy, you're probably already aware that Sproul has two books on this topic: Faith Alone and a sequel Getting the Gospel Right. I found both of those books valuable not only for their commentary on ECT (of which I was blissfully unaware until reading these books!), but also to shape my understanding of the doctrines of Grace. I read these right around the time I was realizing that Reformed theology was correct.

I LOVE RC... I hadn't even heard of Reformed Theology until I heard him on Christian radio in 1999. It wasn't until I got interested in it that I found out my brother was a Reformed Calvanist. (who knew!).

I do have some Q's - hopefully on topic? (please bear with me, my history knowledge is about as bad as my math - it ain't pretty!! lol )
But, since the Cath. church was brought up here, WAS the Catholic church the main & ONLY church for a long span of time until Luther came along (or was it Augustine)?
& if so, is this why the Cath. church claims IT is the only true Church of God to bring God's light to man?

**removed Q. about Luther - it may seem a negative question towards reformed**

Please forgive my ignorance in these Q's & maybe they're best suited in a new Thread dedicated to the subject if this draws away from the OP.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I LOVE RC...

HE is a great teacher and I have learned a great deal from him.

I do have some Q's - hopefully on topic? (please bear with me, my history knowledge is about as bad as my math - it ain't pretty!! lol )
But, since the Cath. church was brought up here, WAS the Catholic church the main & ONLY church for a long span of time until Luther came along (or was it Augustine)?
& if so, is this why the Cath. church claims IT is the only true Church of God to bring God's light to man?

THe Roman Catholic CHurch does claim to be the one true Church and the can trace back a line back to the very earliest days of the Church. With that said, Rome as was not, from the beginning, what it is today.

When reading the Church Fathers it becocmes clear that an episcopal (rule by Bishops) developes (evolves) very early. RJ Rushdoony suggests that early, post-apostolic church structure was a cross between Presbyterian and Episcopal forms, but rapidly became more episcopal.

Early on the Roman church was a very important, because it was in the capitol of the Empire.Other very important centers for Church authority developed in the East as well. Over time the bishops of these Eastern cities (Alexandria, Egypt; Antioch; Jerusalem; Constantinople) became the chief bishops in their regions also.

With the rise of Islam, there of the four of these Patriarchal cities fell under the control of Islam and only Constantinople Remained as a seat of political and Spiritual power.

Rome's claims of being chief Bishop, had been growing for centuries and in 1054, after centuries of going in this direction the Eastern and Western Churches divided (and still are today). In 1302 Pope Boniface VIII issued the Bull Unum Sanctum, which declared any "Christian" not under diect Papal authority to be outside the means of salvation.

In the meantime in Western Europe, during the Medieval period, there was much going on. There were many religious movements both within and without the Church. Some were very good and some were heretical.

Church corruption became rampant and for centuries there were calls, from within the church, for Reformation. The Popes of the High Renaissance were some of the worst and most corrupt in Church history (See -- Lorenzo de’ Medici and the Reformation ) THis lead to a political and Spritiual backlash that we see in the Protestant Reformation.

Main Q: I've read excerpts of Luther being openly anti-semite, is this true? If so, how does that fit in with God's love of His people (ie. bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you)?
Does that at all concern you that he was (if he is) when he's the main proponent of Reformation.?

Luther has many faults and he gave his enemies a lot of amunition to use against him. His position on the Jews is not the best thing we can point. It is not pretty, still you have to know Luther.

R.C. Sproul once said that the theologians of that day were not afraid to call "a spade a spade" and he said Luther was one who would refer to it as a "damned shovel."

Without going into detail, let me say that Luther did write some horrible things on a number of occassions, about Jews and others as well. This type of vehemence was common in the writings of that day, but Luther was one of the worst (from my view) at it.

With that said, Luther was greatly used of God. He also did damage that we have still not recovered from. We can use what he did right, and learn from his errors, but we should not ignore him.

Please forgive my ignorance in these Q's & maybe they're best suited in a new Thread dedicated to the subject if this draws away from the OP.

I hope the short response above helps. I can try to fill in more blanks if needed..

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[McWilliams]

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/luther.html

Some articles here may be of help.

 

[McWilliams]

Actually I see Luther as an extremely brave and courageous man and feel the only reason he wasnt killed by the Catholic Church is that he was God's man for the time, with a rare willingness to stand alone against the whole of a corupt church to clearly expose their corruptions. So many other valiant men were also used of God to bring us to truth and to deliniate the errors of the catholic church, including Tyndale, Calvin and so many more! Luther was at the beginning of his departure from the horrors of the catholic heresies and it took time for him to see and come to terms with leaving them. There is no man in history who is/was perfect, save One so lets not pick on Luther's sins here, or Calvins but lets continue to seek the truth they loved and were committed to, knowing full well that we too continue in some error as we pray, read scripture and desire only God's truth! These imperfect but God fearing men showed us what it takes to pursue the way of Truth and all the great risks inherent to such pursuit!
All they learned doesnt make the Roman Catholic Church a church of truth today, as they continue to reject the doctrines of truth, continue to partake of idolatry, syncretism and such and refuse to correct their ways now as they did then; no pursuit of the five solas of the reformation; thats for sure!!
Soli deo gloria!!!

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

McW,

Luther was very brave and courages. He expected to be burnt at the Diet of Worms and would have had Elector Frederic not protected him.

His warts, while very real, do not take away from what he did right for the Gospel of Christ.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[BertMulder]

Plus the fact that the Lord put a conscience into the emperor, Charles V, that he did not want troubled like his ancestor vs John Huss.

 

[Nadiine]

Just want to thank you guys for taking the time to make detailed posts on the Luther issue, I know it takes alot to type that much & its very appreciated.

Thanks so much to each of you