Quest for church unity

[BertMulder]

Dare I ask this question:

Why does Pope Benedict in his tour of Turkey seem eager to come to an understanding with the Moslem faith,

While at the same time the Council of Trent and its anathema's against the Protestants, specifically the Calvinists, still stand?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Good question.

With Vatican II the RCC seems to step back from Trent, but it can never admit this because Trent's statements are, according to the pronouncements of the First Vatican Council, without error. (I think the RCC has painted itself into a corner at this point).

Islam is an evil, heretical belief system that has swallowed whole swaths of people in this world. I can see where he would want to make an opening for the theachings the Christian faith, but I don't think he will be successful.

Islam is a militant religion bent on world domination. The Muslim needs the Gospel, but Islam has made war on the Christain world ever since it finished its conquest of then, mostly pagan, Arabia.

Islam is getting ready for it's third great attempt to conquer Western Europe. I think the now secular Europe will be no match for Islam and it will succumb if there is not a revival of the Christian Faith in the hearts and minds of Europeans.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[xapis]

Excellent question and excellent points CH.

Islam is getting ready for it's third great attempt to conquer Western Europe. I think the now secular Europe will be no match for Islam and it will succumb if there is not a revival of the Christian Faith in the hearts and minds of Europeans.

This point is especially true. The old stomping ground of the Holy Roman Empire will likely fall to Islam with little or no need for violence. It's awfully symbolic for the pope to be reaching out to the Muhammedans in Anatolia... but, of all people, he should know what a futile attempt it is.

 

[Nadiine]

Dare I ask this question:

Why does Pope Benedict in his tour of Turkey seem eager to come to an understanding with the Moslem faith,

While at the same time the Council of Trent and its anathema's against the Protestants, specifically the Calvinists, still stand?

Great question! But the world is changing (as I see it), & is going "PC" (politically correct).
Religions (other than Islam) are seeking acceptance from the world & want to unite with all people of all beliefs (1 world religion under the umbrella of love, respect & toleration of all).

The days of all the old religious creeds are over with in my opinion. Even America isn't anything like what the founding fathers originally designated. & Christianity is being redefined to becomming all inclusive [with the new definitions of "love"].

The pope is just following the leader in trying to appease & unite religions.

& possibly, he's AFRAID of the terrorism he may invoke & bring to his country? Fear can be a strong motivator.

Just my 2 cents

 

[HiredGoon]

& possibly, he's AFRAID of the terrorism he may invoke & bring to his country? Fear can be a strong motivator.

Just my 2 cents

It seems his words have provoked some terrorists to act. An Iraqi Presbyterian elder was recently murdered in Mosul, and the Muslim terrorist murderers used the Pope as an excuse for their actions.

From an article on the incident: "According to one Mosul source who described the kidnappers’ conversations, “They said, ‘We have him, and we will kill him. We will cut his throat. We will take revenge for the Pope’s words. We will take revenge on all of you. We will kill all the Christians, and we will start with him.’”

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Let's remember the words of Tertullian (who lived in the late second and early third centuries):

The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.

​

I don't think the present Pope has a good understanding about what Islam like. I do think he was doing damage control, and wants to protect Christians who are working with Muslims in thier own lands. I believe he wants to be in a place to speak and be heard by Muslims.

I have many doctrinal differences with the Pope and the RCC, but this man has called for Europe to return to its Christian heritage and turn from the soul and culture killing secularism of modern Europe.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[McWilliams]

I am only speaking for myself but I feel that this being Semper Reformanda forum, the gathering place of those who cling to the doctrines of grace and reformed doctrines, those that came from the reformation to eradicate false doctrines, idolatrous practices, man made traditions and rituals it is now important to stand for truth and say that catholicism is not considered acceptable! Nothing the pope can say would have bearing or validity as he, like us is a sinful, erring human being, in need of a Savior, and to place his faith in Christ for faith and repentance! I acknowledge that God is the only one knowing who are those in His true church, the spiritual church of believers and that there could possibly be some within the catholic church, though there from ignorance and lacking truth but with an humble repentant heart! God knows them that are His! Our bible clearly declares there is one God and ONE mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus! Not wanting to step on toes here but this is Semper Reformanda and I for one have a dislike for increasing catholic discussion here! If you have thoughts proving me wrong I am willing to hear them!

"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order....when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon." - Martin Luther

 

[BertMulder]

Have a theory of course.

What with the mainline Protestant churches, through organizations like the WCC, joining Rome in a false ecumenity.

What with many historic Reformed/Presbyterian churches returning to the doctrines of Rome, the latest being the "Federal Vision" covenant concept, which is nothing but a Works Salvation concept.

What with the Christian Reformed Church putting Q/A 80 of the Heidelberg Catechism on inactive.

Why should Rome change? We are falling all over ourselves to rejoin Rome.

 

[McWilliams]

Focus on Sola Scriptura should put an end to such facination and

falling all over ourselves to rejoin Rome

.

We are not teaching for doctrines the precepts of men but we are teaching, believing and following the very holy words of God Himself as delivered to His apostles!

No ECT, No WCC but God and His word is sufficient for all! NO syncretism, trying to ride the fence and pacify non-believers, except for teaching them Christ as the only way to God, salvation and heaven! Thats it! It isnt complicated or cluttered with all the early church fathers, traditions and such! Just believe what Christ said and the apostles who were abiding always in His words and truth! "Religion' has become a farce, one of man's own design and making and so far off track as to be unrecognizable! There is a famine of the Word and this must be corrected ASAP or our country is going down the tube with many millions of lost souls, carried on the waves of error, false doctrine, 'tolerance' and relativism!
May our holy God purify His Church and His own!!
Soli deo gloria!!

 

[kimlva]

Focus on Sola Scriptura should put an end to such facination and .

We are not teaching for doctrines the precepts of men but we are teaching, believing and following the very holy words of God Himself as delivered to His apostles!

No ECT, No WCC but God and His word is sufficient for all! NO syncretism, trying to ride the fence and pacify non-believers, except for teaching them Christ as the only way to God, salvation and heaven! Thats it! It isnt complicated or cluttered with all the early church fathers, traditions and such! Just believe what Christ said and the apostles who were abiding always in His words and truth! "Religion' has become a farce, one of man's own design and making and so far off track as to be unrecognizable! There is a famine of the Word and this must be corrected ASAP or our country is going down the tube with many millions of lost souls, carried on the waves of error, false doctrine, 'tolerance' and relativism!
May our holy God purify His Church and His own!!
Soli deo gloria!!

AMEN!!!!

 

[kimlva]

Someone else may have said this elsewhere, but I agree. As far as I am concerned, what the Pope does or doesn't do has nothing to do with Christianity one way or another. If he wants to unite with Muslims, it doesn't matter to me. It is just two false religions uniting.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Some of the things posted above are things which I agree with and others things said above are items I disagree with.

I don't think any of us should have any loyalty to the Pope or Rome (and I would be shock to find that someone here does). I believed Papal authority is not in line with Scripture, nor with the situation as it was in the early church. I also believe the Papal corruption of the Renaissance Popes was one of the chief items that God used to bring about the Protestant Reformation.

With that said, I have no problem saying what I think about the actions or words of any given pope or Roman Catholic. The present Pope has made very good comments calling Europe back to its Christians heritage and opposes the growing secular nihilistic culture of the once Christian West. I think that is a good thing.

I like some of the things that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwel say as well. I also think they're off their rocker at times as well.

I agree with BurtMulder's comments on the Mainline Protestant denominations and the WCC. They are "mostly" apostate organisations and they may very well drift toward Rome. I don't know a lot about ECT. I do know that Reformed theologian J.I Packer signed off on it, and that Reformed theologian R.C. Sproul was strongly opposed to it, but that is the limit of my knowledge on that issue.

I disagree with the comment on Federal Vision, which has been discussed here many times already. I personally think the whole debate is blown way out of proportion, and both sides have exaggerated the position of the other. I do live in Louisiana and have been around STRONG voices on both sides. I have listened and read bothsides a bit and find they are speaking past one another.

I place the current FV debate right up there with the Clark vs. VanTil (Reformed verses Reformed bloodbath of the mid 20th century) and the Reformed Reconstructionists verses Reformed non-Reconstructionists hysteria several decades later.

The Pope is a reality that has been around for a very long time and the office will be around for years to come. What he does in this world is going to impact people here and elsewhere, just as the actions of anyone who is head of a billion.

If some of you don't like this thread, I am sure our moderator can move it or close it. I am ok with it here and I am ok if it is moved or closed.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Hackett]

Focus on Sola Scriptura should put an end to such facination and .

We are not teaching for doctrines the precepts of men but we are teaching, believing and following the very holy words of God Himself as delivered to His apostles!

No ECT, No WCC but God and His word is sufficient for all! NO syncretism, trying to ride the fence and pacify non-believers, except for teaching them Christ as the only way to God, salvation and heaven! Thats it! It isnt complicated or cluttered with all the early church fathers, traditions and such! Just believe what Christ said and the apostles who were abiding always in His words and truth! "Religion' has become a farce, one of man's own design and making and so far off track as to be unrecognizable! There is a famine of the Word and this must be corrected ASAP or our country is going down the tube with many millions of lost souls, carried on the waves of error, false doctrine, 'tolerance' and relativism!
May our holy God purify His Church and His own!!
Soli deo gloria!!

Amen to that!!

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I want to make one more comment about VF. I said above, and on other threads what I think about the FV situation. I think it is a situation blown way out of proportion to the reality. I hope cooler heads will win out and it will eventually blow over as have the great Reformed feuds mentioned earlier.

If the FV controversy continues to spin out of control, then the PCA will loose a fair chunk of its members and the Reformed Churches will once again prove, to a watching world, that we are our own worst enemy. We seem to try hard every day to prove that the term "Reformed Unity" is an oxymoron.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Nadiine]

I am only speaking for myself but I feel that this being Semper Reformanda forum, the gathering place of those who cling to the doctrines of grace and reformed doctrines, those that came from the reformation to eradicate false doctrines, idolatrous practices, man made traditions and rituals it is now important to stand for truth and say that catholicism is not considered acceptable! Nothing the pope can say would have bearing or validity as he, like us is a sinful, erring human being, in need of a Savior, and to place his faith in Christ for faith and repentance! I acknowledge that God is the only one knowing who are those in His true church, the spiritual church of believers and that there could possibly be some within the catholic church, though there from ignorance and lacking truth but with an humble repentant heart! God knows them that are His! Our bible clearly declares there is one God and ONE mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus! Not wanting to step on toes here but this is Semper Reformanda and I for one have a dislike for increasing catholic discussion here! If you have thoughts proving me wrong I am willing to hear them!

"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order....when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon." - Martin Luther

I think this problem is in other threads, I know one thread I was in last month had a Catholic in the wrong area, telling us how only those of the Catholic persuasion are "God's true people"...
(it was reported, but was somehow allowed to remain).

But since I have a non denom. tag, I realize it might irritate or make people upset here even tho I respect & am in agreement with you.
If I offend anyone or you guys would rather not have me post in this area, please PM me. I would totally understand your concerns.
thank you

 

[McWilliams]

I don't know a lot about ECT. I do know that Reformed theologian J.I Packer signed off on it, and that Reformed theologian R.C. Sproul was strongly opposed to it, but that is the limit of my knowledge on that issue

There were many, many that were very upset with J.I Packer about his signing that and at that point parted company with him! I was most upset as I'd read his books and appreciated his committment to scripture for years! He was removed from my bookcase at that point as I no longer value his opinion!
I do realize you view things differently having been a catholic yourself and having much family still catholic. On this issue perhaps I feel freer to take my stand as I so strongly object to all things catholic! Yes, the pope does and can say words of truth at times; so do atheist also say words of truth at times. However, like the issue with Dr. Packer once someone clearly shows they lack committment to scriptural truth and like the pope compromise his already faulty, erroneous stance I have no need or respect for their opinion!
I know we are all imperfect, sinners all, but I also know there are a few, precious few that remain strongly committed to the truths of God's word! That is our sole guide for faith and life!
We read history to learn, so as not to perpetuate the errors and goof-ups of the past! Even David and the psalmists frequently quoted or referred to history and how people failed so often by not consulting or obeying God's word! We can clearly learn by heeding the words of Ps 105,106. We hopefully learn to not go there, not to take lightly the words of great importance! Scripture is replete with those who failed to learn that God meant what He said and by not learning they died, were swallowed up, became leprous, saw disaster in their family and worse! God said for us to follow His word! Why do we continue to take this as an insignificant suggestion, rather than a binding command whereby our very life depends on it! What is extremely important to us? Is it our day to day or our eternity? Must we continue to hassle the minutiae, agonize about trivia or can we not be those whose delight is in the law of the Lord and in this we do meditate day and night, to be as a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season, his leaf also shall not wither; whatsoever he doeth shall prosper!!
I think if we can learn what is it that is of the most value and go there, and spend our time learning more of such that is learning and growing!
For protestants to be united would be a wonderful thing but certainly difficult in this land where a slight disagreement is grounds for a new church or denomination!
To join in with catholics on anything is an abomination! They continue in error as prior to the Reformation and refuse to read God's word and seek His truth!
We read puritans devotionally, inspirationally!
We read scripture for truth and life, mercy and grace!

 

[calmcoolandelected]

I am only speaking for myself but I feel that this being Semper Reformanda forum, the gathering place of those who cling to the doctrines of grace and reformed doctrines, those that came from the reformation to eradicate false doctrines, idolatrous practices, man made traditions and rituals it is now important to stand for truth and say that catholicism is not considered acceptable! Nothing the pope can say would have bearing or validity as he, like us is a sinful, erring human being, in need of a Savior, and to place his faith in Christ for faith and repentance! I acknowledge that God is the only one knowing who are those in His true church, the spiritual church of believers and that there could possibly be some within the catholic church, though there from ignorance and lacking truth but with an humble repentant heart! God knows them that are His! Our bible clearly declares there is one God and ONE mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus! Not wanting to step on toes here but this is Semper Reformanda and I for one have a dislike for increasing catholic discussion here! If you have thoughts proving me wrong I am willing to hear them!

"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order....when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon." - Martin Luther

You must spread some reputation around before giving to McWilliams again!


CC&E

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

There were many, many that were very upset with J.I Packer about his signing that and at that point parted company with him! I was most upset as I'd read his books and appreciated his committment to scripture for years! He was removed from my bookcase at that point as I no longer value his opinion!
I do realize you view things differently having been a catholic yourself and having much family still catholic. On this issue perhaps I feel freer to take my stand as I so strongly object to all things catholic! Yes, the pope does and can say words of truth at times; so do atheist also say words of truth at times. However, like the issue with Dr. Packer once someone clearly shows they lack committment to scriptural truth and like the pope compromise his already faulty, erroneous stance I have no need or respect for their opinion!
I know we are all imperfect, sinners all, but I also know there are a few, precious few that remain strongly committed to the truths of God's word! That is our sole guide for faith and life!
We read history to learn, so as not to perpetuate the errors and goof-ups of the past! Even David and the psalmists frequently quoted or referred to history and how people failed so often by not consulting or obeying God's word! We can clearly learn by heeding the words of Ps 105,106. We hopefully learn to not go there, not to take lightly the words of great importance! Scripture is replete with those who failed to learn that God meant what He said and by not learning they died, were swallowed up, became leprous, saw disaster in their family and worse! God said for us to follow His word! Why do we continue to take this as an insignificant suggestion, rather than a binding command whereby our very life depends on it! What is extremely important to us? Is it our day to day or our eternity? Must we continue to hassle the minutiae, agonize about trivia or can we not be those whose delight is in the law of the Lord and in this we do meditate day and night, to be as a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season, his leaf also shall not wither; whatsoever he doeth shall prosper!!
I think if we can learn what is it that is of the most value and go there, and spend our time learning more of such that is learning and growing!
For protestants to be united would be a wonderful thing but certainly difficult in this land where a slight disagreement is grounds for a new church or denomination!
To join in with catholics on anything is an abomination! They continue in error as prior to the Reformation and refuse to read God's word and seek His truth!
We read puritans devotionally, inspirationally!
We read scripture for truth and life, mercy and grace!

I have read your points and agree with some and disagree with others.

I read lots of folks that I disagree with; this is how the Lord brought me to the Doctrines of Grace. I was a solid Arminian, Southern Baptist, fully convinced of those teachings. I was challenged to read a book written by a horrible heretical Calvinist named Loraine Boettner. This book shook me pretty good, but I was not through reading those evil Calvinists. Next I read A.W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God. Now I know that Calvinists are not heretics, but we are in line with the Scriptures on this issue.

I have high regard for reading the writings of others, because I came to undestand the great truths of the Reformed Faith through the reading of men who, at the time, I considered to be in gross error.

I still have high regard for the books that I've read by J.I. Packer and even now recommend his Evangelism and the Sovereinty of God very highly.

Should we read Augustine of Bernard of Clairvaux? They have some very big disagreements doctrinal differences with Reformed Christians, but John Calvin had very high regard for both even though he disagreed with much of their medieval theology.

Calvin and Luther had serious disagreements about the Lord's Supper. Luther would not even speak with Zwingli over their disagreements on this issue. Calvin and Melancthon tried to bridge the gaps and get the Reformed and Lutheran camps together on this issue, but there were men who said "its my way or the highway" and these two camps are still divided 500 years later.

McW, I have great respect for you and love you dearly. Your posts are some of the most up lifting things on SR. I always look forward to reading your posts, but on this issue we are not of one mind. I am ok with that, because I am not of one mind, on every issue, with any human being on earth (past or present).

Much of what I read is written by those withwhom I disagree on important items. I think the Lord has given me the desire to know and understand others and I believe that knowledge has been very helpful in discipling others.

If the Lord has not given you, or others here, the desire to know and understand "others" than I am OK with that too. We are not all an eyeball even a big toe in the body of Christ. Your calling is not mine and mine is not yours.

You have no conviction to read a "heretic" like A.W. Pink, like I did. At that time I did believe then that he was way out in a very unbiblical left field. By reading him and studing what he said I now know better. By reading him and weighting what he said by the Word of God I came to these great reformed truths.

I will always defend this issue. I have to because I believe it is what the Lord has laid upon my heart.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[McWilliams]

In 1654 Oviver Cromwell--with his idea of Toleration--and the Parliament called upon the divines to define what should be tolerated or indulged among those who profess the fundamentals of Christianity. In effect they said, we have all these divisions and sects and groups; what are the fundamentals of Christianity on which we can have fellowship together?
They produced 16 articles which they felt stated the fundamentals on which, and on which alone, true fellowship is possible between Protestant Evangelical people. Here they are--
1)The the Holy Scripture is that rule of knowing God and living unto Him which whoso does not believe cannot be saved.
2) That there is a God who is the Creator, Governor and Judge of the world, which is to be received by faith, and every other way of the knowledge of Him is unsufficient.
3) That this God who is the Creatory is eternally distinct from all creatures in His Being and Blessedness.
4)That this God is One in Three Persons or subsistences.
5)That Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and Man without the knowledge of whom there is no salvation.
6)That this Jesus Christ is the true God.
7) That this Jesus Christ is also true Man
8)That this Jesus Christ is God and Man in One Person.
9)That this Jesus Christ is our Redeemer, who by paying a ransom and bearing our sins has made satisfaction for them.
10)That this same Lord Jesus Christ is He that was Crucified at Jerusalem, and rose again and ascended into Heaven.
11)That this same Jesus Christ being the only God and Man in One Person remains for ever a distinct Person from all saints and angels notwithstanding their union and communion with Him.
12)That all mem by nature were dead in sins and trespasses, and no man can be saved unless he be born again, repent and believe.
13)That we are justified and saved by grace and faith in Jesus Christ and not by works.
14)That to continue in any known sin upon what pretence or principle soever is damnable.
15)That God is to be worshipped according to His own will, and whosoever shall forsake and despise all the duties of His worship connot be saved.
16)That the dead shall rise, and that there is a day of judgment wherein all shall appear, some to go into everlasting life and some into everlasting condemnation.
Dr. John Owen worded these articles, Dr. Thomas Goodwin and Mr. Nye and Mr Sydrach Simpson were his assistants. Dr. Reynolds,was the scribe and Mr Marshall, Mr Vines,Mr Manton and others being present.
These Articles were designed and intended to exclude not only Deists, Socinians and Papists but also Arians, Antinomians, Quakers and others.
Their object was to define the irreducible minimum on which evangelical people could work together. We, today, need to elaborate some of these statements in view of our peculiar circumstances, but still I suggest, we should seek the minimum definition and not the maximum. Then, united on that basis, we can as brethren work together, and meet together for discussion of the matters on which we differ, and for our mutual edification.
(excerpt, The Puritans, pg 235, D.M. Lloyd-Jones
address delivered 1969, 'Can We Learn From History')

 

[McWilliams]

You have no conviction to read a "heretic" like A.W. Pink, like I did. At that time I did believe then that he was way out in a very unbiblical left field. By reading him and studing what he said I now know better. By reading him and weighting what he said by the Word of God I came to these great reformed truths.

Ah Kenith, Those same two books brought me to the doctrines of grace! I'd read Boettner's book first and then The Sovereignty of God by Pink and it was all such a great wow awakening! I'm so thankful for that!
I know I'm rather hardlined about Packer because I was so upset with him for signing that document! Actually I do believe I still have Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God on the shelf. Not happy with him though!
I do wish to be compassionate with other protestants and hope they too will come to see God's great grace doctrines!
I also admit to having strong feelings against catholics, likely increased after reading D'Aubigne's bio of Luther! I've always had both a great desire for 'truth' and a horror of getting it mingled with 'error'! I've read some wonderful books that spell out the ways error can subtly and slowly creep into our thinking and doctrine and I so want to prevent such!
I liken this to the analogy of my baking a cake for you and you truly loving the cake, until I tell you that it does happen to have a very small but insignificant amount of poison in it! Even though a miniscule amount is in the cake do you truly want to continue eating it, taking it in and risking serious illness?
Today the word 'tolerance' is so abused and misused and we are prey to being deluded if not clinging to scriptural truth! Wolves are at large, taking in unsuspecting sheep who casually, minimally know the word or the doctrines that support truth of scripture!
In the above post my concern addressed the fact that we cannot relate to all who claim to be christian as brothers but to have true fellowship of like mind we must be in agreement of the fundamentals! Sadly, that does rule out some and at times they are within our own family!
Who do we most want to please?
'And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake; but he that endureth to the end shall be saved!' Mt.10:22