Queen of Heaven?

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 13, 2023

myst33 said:
<SNIP>

I am not familiar with LCMS and WELS. Anyway, I think that protestants are not even welcome to visit the RCC service or communities, not to say to participate in the Lord's Supper, so from my point of view, the RCC is the most closed denomination.

Not very familiar with the Catholic Church either, judging by the above. Do know why the Catholic, Orthodox, and Confessional Lutheran (LCMS, LCC, WELS, and a whole bunch more) Churches practice "closed communion"? The Bible lists a bunch of cautions and admonitions regarding "worthy" reception and "discerning" Christ's body and blood. The Bible states that if it is received in the wrong manner, one can be subject to both physical and spiritual harm; even eating and drinking judgement upon themselves.

Closed communion is not a mean spirited act of exclusivity, but an practice born out of love, and charitable concern for our Christian brothers and sisters.

I hope this helps you understand.

trophy33 · Aug 13, 2023

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Not very familiar with the Catholic Church either, judging by the above. Do know why the Catholic, Orthodox, and Confessional Lutheran (LCMS, LCC, WELS, and a whole bunch more) Churches practice "closed communion"? The Bible lists a bunch of cautions and admonitions regarding "worthy" reception and "discerning" Christ's body and blood. The Bible states that if it is received in the wrong manner, one can be subject to both physical and spiritual harm; even eating and drinking judgement upon themselves.

Closed communion is not a mean spirited act of exclusivity, but an practice born out of love, and charitable concern for our Christian brothers and sisters.

I hope this helps you understand.

You are not even welcome to come to mass, not just in communion. I have never experienced this about Lutherans or other protestants.

The only thing protestants usually say before the Lord's Supper is that its for those who truly believe in Christ. Nobody asks that you must be a member of their specific church.

P.S. We are not discussing "why", the context of the conversation you jumped into was the number of denominations, which was called "a tragedy" and I claimed that the number of protestant denominations is more a technicality and all protestant churches I have been to are open and without conflict. Not so with traditional churches, who act in pride and separate themselves from others with various barriers.

trophy33 · Aug 13, 2023

PeterDona said:
With respect to RCC, my experience is much different.

Maybe my question should be, do you dislike the teachings of the RCC because you consider it to be a cultish society?

Not sure about experience, I did not even try to attend, because its officially said on various catholic websites. Sure, in reality, they cannot really know you are a protestant, if one wants to go anyway and its not some small town or a village.

No, its just another extreme practice/doctrine of theirs I dislike. It does not precede other dislikes.

boughtwithaprice · Aug 13, 2023

myst33 said:
Why do you think this text was meant to be repeated as a prayer? There is nothing in the context indicating that.

Where did you get the idea that Mary is closer to God than any human ever will be? Where does the Bible says so? If somebody, John is depicted as someone specially close to Jesus and Abraham as specially close to God.

Also, praying to departed people to pray for us is nowhere in the New Testament. Jesus taught to pray to Father, directly. What apostle prayed to Mary or wrote we should do so?

Has God the Son, creator of the universe ever suckled at your breasts and spent 30 years subject to you as an obedient child? Think of how close was the relationship of Mary and Jesus.
Where did Mary come from? Was she just a random girl that God chose to fulfill His purposes? Are we creatures to be used for mere pleasure or does He love us and give Himself for us?
Are God’s ways not so far above ours? Consider proverbs chapter 8 where wisdom is a woman that plays before God.

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. 23 I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. 24 The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: 25 The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

26 He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: 28 When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: 29 When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when he balanced the foundations of the earth; 30 I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

31 Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men. 32 Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, and that watcheth daily at my gates, and waiteth at the posts of my doors. 35 He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord:

36 But he that shall sin against me, shall hurt his own soul. All that hate me love death.

You may say that does not apply to Mary, well then who is she? Wisdom. Ok, then how do you think about God? Is God some Stoner that thinks about abstract concepts and muses the phrase, far out? If you say wisdom is a woman that is not Mary, then do you think that God is more of a Hugh Hefner type that needs multiple women around him to validate his greatness? Or is it more likely that God is faithful and true, and the women described in the Bible as with God are one and the same woman, Mary? Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is WITH you.

trophy33 · Aug 13, 2023

boughtwithaprice said:
Has God the Son, creator of the universe ever suckled at your breasts and spent 30 years subject to you as an obedient child? Think of how close was the relationship of Mary and Jesus.
Where did Mary come from? Was she just a random girl that God chose to fulfill His purposes? Are we creatures to be used for mere pleasure or does He love us and give Himself for us?
Are God’s ways not so far above ours? Consider proverbs chapter 8 where wisdom is a woman that plays before God.

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. 23 I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. 24 The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: 25 The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

26 He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: 28 When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: 29 When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when he balanced the foundations of the earth; 30 I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

31 Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men. 32 Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, and that watcheth daily at my gates, and waiteth at the posts of my doors. 35 He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord:

36 But he that shall sin against me, shall hurt his own soul. All that hate me love death.

You may say that does not apply to Mary, well then who is she? Wisdom. Ok, then how do you think about God? Is God some Stoner that thinks about abstract concepts and muses the phrase, far out? If you say wisdom is a woman that is not Mary, then do you think that God is more of a Hugh Hefner type that needs multiple women around him to validate his greatness? Or is it more likely that God is faithful and true, and the women described in the Bible as with God are one and the same woman, Mary? Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is WITH you.

There is like a dozen of questions in your post. I suppose those are rhetorical and you do not expect answers.

Regarding your reasoning, I am kind of lost. The passage is about wisdom or about Jesus. Nothing leads us to think its about Mary or about a woman.

I do not even believe that what you present is a catholic teaching - Mary creating with God or existing before heavens. Sounds like an absurd heresy, totally unbiblical. The New Testament explicitly says that everything was created through Christ, you instead put Mary there, which is blasphemy.

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 13, 2023

myst33 said:
You are not even welcome to come to mass, not just in communion. I have never experienced this about Lutherans or other protestants.

The only thing protestants usually say before the Lord's Supper is that its for those who truly believe in Christ. Nobody asks that you must be a member of their specific church.

P.S. We are not discussing "why", the context of the conversation you jumped into was the number of denominations, which was called "a tragedy" and I claimed that the number of protestant denominations is more a technicality and all protestant churches I have been to are open and without conflict. Not so with traditional churches, who act in pride and separate themselves from others with various barriers.

Where in the world are you located; the Catholic community here in Canada is very welcoming and friendly to non Catholics and certainly all are welcome to attend their services, even if they can't commune.

Not all Lutherans are the same, while you would be welcome to come to our services, it would be expected that you would respect your theology enough to not commune.

Well, you need to discuss the why, as that is the context for what you are wrongly interpreting as hostility towards your personal sense of self righteous "entitlement".

It is you who are being disrespectful of other Christians and their theologies.

If you don't like the way Catholics, Confessional Lutherans, Eastern and Oriental orthodox practice their faith, then go elsewhere and stop being a whiney suck. I'm guessing you are a millennial.

The Liturgist · Aug 13, 2023

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Not very familiar with the Catholic Church either, judging by the above. Do know why the Catholic, Orthodox, and Confessional Lutheran (LCMS, LCC, WELS, and a whole bunch more) Churches practice "closed communion"? The Bible lists a bunch of cautions and admonitions regarding "worthy" reception and "discerning" Christ's body and blood. The Bible states that if it is received in the wrong manner, one can be subject to both physical and spiritual harm; even eating and drinking judgement upon themselves.

Closed communion is not a mean spirited act of exclusivity, but an practice born out of love, and charitable concern for our Christian brothers and sisters.

I hope this helps you understand.

Furthermore @myst33 Protestants are positively welcome to attend Roman Catholic, Orthodox and confessional Lutheran services - it is just that one must join the church before partaking, with some exceptions. For example, the Roman Catholics will under some limited circumstances, if someone is in extremely poor health, provide communion to Protestants. Also, Roman Catholics will commune Orthodox, and some Orthodox churches, primarily in the Middle East, where persecution can be a real problem, limiting access to churches, have, I have heard, communed Catholics, for example, the Syriac Orthodox parish in Istanbul I have heard gives communion to Catholics.

It is my dream to in my lifetime see full communion between the Evangelical Catholic components of the LCMS, the RCC and the Orthodox on the basis of our shared faith, since we all reject Nestorianism and affirm the Nicene Creed, venerate the sacred icons, and venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary. That said, I have visited an LCMS parish where one person present commented on me having made the sign of the cross, which I would note would have never happened at an Episcopal Church, given that Anglo-Catholics do this routinely, so clearly within the LCMS members like my beloved friend @MarkRohfrietsch will I believe be leaders in promoting traditional orthodox Lutheran doctrine in line with the actual beliefs of Martin Luther and the early church, which are already widespread in the LCMS and LCC and which soon, God willing, might be universal therein, which will be a spectacular achievement, considering that the Prussian monarchy tried to suppress Lutheranism in Prussia, and the LCMS was founded by the Lutheran-leaning members of what could be called the Prussian Church in America. Indeed I think the reason why we see such immense liturgical beauty in the LCC and LCMS is because these were Lutherans who had to struggle to remain Lutheran under the reign of various Kaisers whose great preference was that they simply converted to Calvinism.

The Liturgist · Aug 13, 2023

myst33 said:
Not sure about experience, I did not even try to attend, because its officially said on various catholic websites. Sure, in reality, they cannot really know you are a protestant, if one wants to go anyway and its not some small town or a village.

No, its just another extreme practice/doctrine of theirs I dislike. It does not precede other dislikes.

There is no Catholic Church in the world or Orthodox Church that prohibits Protestants from attending. Some Orthodox churches - a very few, will have those who have not yet been received into the Orthodox CHurch view the service from the Narthex rather than the Nave, but the only one of these I am aware of is that at the Monastery of St. Anthony in Florence, Arizona.

PeterDona · Aug 13, 2023

boughtwithaprice said:
Where did Mary come from? ... Consider proverbs chapter 8 where wisdom is a woman that plays before God.
...
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was present:
...
You may say that does not apply to Mary, well then who is she? Wisdom. Ok, then how do you think about God? Is God some Stoner that thinks about abstract concepts and muses the phrase, far out? If you say wisdom is a woman that is not Mary, then do you think that God is more of a Hugh Hefner type that needs multiple women around him to validate his greatness? Or is it more likely that God is faithful and true, and the women described in the Bible as with God are one and the same woman, Mary? Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is WITH you.

My brother in the catholic faith,
I think you are stretching the bliblical text beyond reason. Mary was not present at creation.
I am not sure if there is a standard of what it means. Here is a resource for some meditation click

trophy33 · Aug 13, 2023

MarkRohfrietsch said:
If you don't like the way Catholics, Confessional Lutherans, Eastern and Oriental orthodox practice their faith, then go elsewhere and stop being a whiney suck. I'm guessing you are a millennial.

I am not interested in such kind of conversations. So I will ignore you from now on.

The Liturgist · Aug 13, 2023

PeterDona said:
My brother in the catholic faith,
I think you are stretching the bliblical text beyond reason. Mary was not present at creation.
I am not sure if there is a standard of what it means. Here is a resource for some meditation click

No one is claiming the Mother of God was present at creation. What makes her mother of God is that Jesus Christ is God, and thus St. Mary gave birth to God in the person of the incarnate Logos in Bethlehem in 33 AD.

trophy33 · Aug 13, 2023

The Liturgist said:
There is no Catholic Church in the world or Orthodox Church that prohibits Protestants from attending.

Can you quote an official RCC source, maybe catechism or some RCC laws about this topic?

We may get stuck on definitions of "prohibited" vs "must fulfill requirements" etc. So its best to check some authoritative source.

The Liturgist · Aug 13, 2023

myst33 said:
Can you quote an official RCC source, maybe catechism or some RCC laws about this topic?

We may get stuck on definitions of "prohibited" vs "must fulfill requirements" etc. So its best to check some authoritative source.

There is nothing in the Code of Canon Law which prevents non-Catholics from attending services. Since you’re the one making the extraordinary claim, that Catholics somehow check the membership status to make sure everyone going in the door is a member of the 1/6th of the world’s population that is a member of their church, as if Catholic Churches were Mormon temples, the burden of proof falls on you in this instance to give a source. Otherwise you’ll have to take my word for it and that also I suppose of all Roman Catholic members of this site, such as my dear friends @Michie @chevyontheriver @concretecamper @Valletta and others.

trophy33 · Aug 13, 2023

The Liturgist said:
There is nothing in the Code of Canon Law which prevents non-Catholics from attending services. Since you’re the one making the extraordinary claim, that Catholics somehow check the membership status to make sure everyone going in the door is a member of the 1/6th of the world’s population that is a member of their church, as if Catholic Churches were Mormon temples, the burden of proof falls on you in this instance to give a source. Otherwise you’ll have to take my word for it and that also I suppose of all Roman Catholic members of this site, such as my dear friends @Michie @chevyontheriver @valetta and others.

I did not burden you with proof, I was asking if you have official sources about this topic. You do not have to call out other people for their opinions, its not what I am looking for. Its not even a topic I joined this conversation for. The topic was Mary.

The last time I searched for this, I found what I say. I do not have links now.

I have never made a claim that Catholics somehow check the membership status at the door, thats your pure invention out of the blue.

The Liturgist · Aug 13, 2023

myst33 said:
I did not burden you with proof, I was asking if you have official sources about this topic. You do not have to call out other people for their opinions, its not what I am looking for. Its not even a topic I joined this conversation for. The topic was Mary.

The last time I searched for this, I found what I say. I do not have links now.

I have never made a claim that Catholics somehow check the membership status at the door, thats your pure invention out of the blue.

Well I can assure you that no Catholic or Orthodox or Lutheran parishes prohibit non-members from attending. How would they convert Protestants to Catholicism if Protestants couldn’t attend?

trophy33 · Aug 13, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Well I can assure you that no Catholic or Orthodox or Lutheran parishes prohibit non-members from attending. How would they convert Protestants to Catholicism if Protestants couldn’t attend?

I tam talking about RCC only. I have never searched this info about Orthodox and I have never claimed this about Lutherans or any other protestants.

Anyway, if it turns just to personal assurances and nobody of us have some official sources ready, we can leave the topic and return to Mary.

PeterDona · Aug 13, 2023

hm, the most official I could find by a quick search.
I do not know who runs catholic answers, but I have always thought they were pretty official

Can Non-Catholics Participate in the Gestures at Mass?

As a congregant, a non-Catholic is allowed to do as much as do Catholics in the pews with the exception of receiving Communion. You can make the sign of the cro...

www.catholic.com

chevyontheriver · Aug 13, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Well I can assure you that no Catholic or Orthodox or Lutheran parishes prohibit non-members from attending. How would they convert Protestants to Catholicism if Protestants couldn’t attend?

I have been to Catholic churches on three continents and have never been questioned as to whether I was a Catholic or not. Your claim that non-Catholics are not welcome in Catholic churches is hollow. I have brought many Protestant guests with me. Nobody ever told them they were unwelcome. I have never heard of such a thing. I have never read of such a thing. I think you have imagined it. If you can prove otherwise, please go ahead. Even the rabid pro-abortion fanatics are welcome. They get ushered out when and only when they become disruptive.

The relevant Catholic document for a rule against non-Catholics would be the Code of Canon Law. I have read every word of the CCL and there is nothing at all forbidding you from entering a Catholic church or participating in the Mass.

You should not be presenting yourself at the Eucharist if you are in disagreement with us, as you clearly are. If you do present yourself for the Eucharist you are telling the watching world you are in communion with us, which would clearly not be something you would say. You are welcome for everything else. Just don’t disagree with us and then pretend you agree by getting in line for communion.

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 13, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Furthermore @myst33 Protestants are positively welcome to attend Roman Catholic, Orthodox and confessional Lutheran services - it is just that one must join the church before partaking, with some exceptions. For example, the Roman Catholics will under some limited circumstances, if someone is in extremely poor health, provide communion to Protestants. Also, Roman Catholics will commune Orthodox, and some Orthodox churches, primarily in the Middle East, where persecution can be a real problem, limiting access to churches, have, I have heard, communed Catholics, for example, the Syriac Orthodox parish in Istanbul I have heard gives communion to Catholics.

It is my dream to in my lifetime see full communion between the Evangelical Catholic components of the LCMS, the RCC and the Orthodox on the basis of our shared faith, since we all reject Nestorianism and affirm the Nicene Creed, venerate the sacred icons, and venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary. That said, I have visited an LCMS parish where one person present commented on me having made the sign of the cross, which I would note would have never happened at an Episcopal Church, given that Anglo-Catholics do this routinely, so clearly within the LCMS members like my beloved friend @MarkRohfrietsch will I believe be leaders in promoting traditional orthodox Lutheran doctrine in line with the actual beliefs of Martin Luther and the early church, which are already widespread in the LCMS and LCC and which soon, God willing, might be universal therein, which will be a spectacular achievement, considering that the Prussian monarchy tried to suppress Lutheranism in Prussia, and the LCMS was founded by the Lutheran-leaning members of what could be called the Prussian Church in America. Indeed I think the reason why we see such immense liturgical beauty in the LCC and LCMS is because these were Lutherans who had to struggle to remain Lutheran under the reign of various Kaisers whose great preference was that they simply converted to Calvinism.

Certainly, they and Lutherans give their clergy latitude to exercise "Pastoral Discretion" in the administration of the Sacraments regarding extenuating circumstances.

RileyG · Aug 13, 2023

In the Davidic Monarchy, the Queen was never the wife of the King- she was his mother. Jesus is the new David, the King of Kings, and Mary is the Queen- the Queen Mother.

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