Quaker silence

[Pethesedzao]

Any one who does not preach Christ Jesus crucified has strayed from the truth

 

[DamianWarS]

We waited about 10 minutes one time, and then someone spoke.

who decides when to break the silence, and how do they know? it feels like anti-worship worship. the problem with this is everything becomes a system over time and eventually, quietness itself turns into a measure for spirituality. But pessimism aside it also sounds like a refreshing focus.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Everyone in a silent room is agreeing with everyone else, except because it is silent, they are just agreeing it feels nice to be together in a room, as if there is something significant going on.

Everyone travels to work in trains every day, together, but it is not significant.

We are exorted to lift sing praises and psalms to God.
Part of being a jew was singing the psalms at all the festivals.
Peter, Paul and all the apostles sang and made joy to the Lord with their hearts.

So I love times of contemplation, alone, when the Lord leads me through many things in my life and others lives, but as a group, we need the encouragement of words, praise and testimony.

So I cannot agree with the Quaker approach.
But if they find blessing in it, and follow Jesus, Amen.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

"Quaker -- a member of the Religious Society of Friends, a Christian movement founded by George Fox c. 1650 and devoted to peaceful principles. Central to the Quakers' belief is the doctrine of the “Inner Light,” or sense of Christ's direct working in the soul. This has led them to reject both formal ministry and all set forms of worship."


" Around 11% of Friends practice waiting worship, or unprogrammed worship(more commonly known today as Meeting for Worship), where the order of service is not planned in advance, is predominantly silent, and may include unprepared vocal ministry from those present. " Quakers - Wikipedia


"Wisdom from an Early Quaker
Isaac Penington
"After the mind is in some measure turned to the Lord – his quickenings felt, his seed beginning to arise and spring up in the heart – then the flesh is to be silent before him, and the soul to wait upon him (and for his further appearings) in that measure of life which is already revealed.

"Now, this is a great thing: to know flesh silenced, to feel the reasoning thoughts and discourses of the fleshly mind stilled, and the wisdom, light, and guidance of God’s spirit waited for. For we are to come into the poverty of self, into the abasedness, into the nothingness, into the silence of our spirit before the Lord; into the putting off of all our knowledge, wisdom, understanding, abilities, all that we are, have done, or can do, out of this measure of life, into which we are to travel, that we may be clothed and filled with the nature, Spirit, and power of the Lord.

"God is to be worshipped in spirit, in his own power and life, and this is at his own disposal.
...
Waiting in Silence


Isaiah 40:31 But those who wait upon the LORD will renew their strength; they will mount up with wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary; they will walk and not faint.


Back after I prayed to God to bring me to Him, and then slid backwards off a 2nd story roof above large rocks, prayed "Help!" in 1/2 of a second, and woke up without bruises perfectly balanced on a porch rail below with only a superficial cut (and scar) to show for it past my own testimony....

For a time I pursued a wonderful person who wanted to attend some Quaker services, the old kind, where they wait for the Spirit.

So we did.

Altogether I've been to 3 of the services where we sat together, in a circle, and waited, in silence.

It was very very good.

There's something wonderful about tamping down the ego, and having others tamp down their ego, especially for me back in that time, when I'd not yet found a church home, and it was all new again, and all unknown....

We waited about 10 minutes one time, and then someone spoke.

It's such a relief to wait, to be silent!

I kept waiting for someone to destroy it, to speak up, because of fear or ego. But they did not. Minute after minute.

The assumption here is who ever speaks is speaking on behalf of the Holy Spirit. So that would count me out on attending as this is considered prophetic utterance, a gift given by the Holy Spirit and doubtful all members have this gift.
"Spoken messages may occur many times during a meeting, or there may be none at all. Such a message is delivered by an individual, but is understood to be coming through that person from God."

 

[timothyu]

The assumption here is who ever speaks is speaking on behalf of the Holy Spirit. So that would count me out on attending as this is considered prophetic utterance, a gift given by the Holy Spirit and doubtful all members have this gift.

Does not God work through all who have given permission, be it deed or speech?

 

[timothyu]

So I love times of contemplation, alone, when the Lord leads me through many things in my life and others lives, but as a group, we need the encouragement of words, praise and testimony.

I don't know anything about Quakers but from what I have read since taking interest in this topic, they purposely stay away from organized religion just for that reason, to avoid the brainwashing of group 'encouragement' of a particular denomination which locks them into that particular mindset. It seems Quakers are more like a group intent on social justice and are made up of those of varying denominational backgrounds. A Quaker here would be nice to verify or deny.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Does not God work through all who have given permission, be it deed or speech?

I am not sure how to answer your question. It is well known that Quakers are not a a group that follows the tradition of the Apostles where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the chief cornerstone. They do not believe in repentance set forth by power of the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit Baptism, water baptism, regeneration through the born again experience, the Lords supper (Eucharist) church structure laid out by Paul the Apostle and probably much more than that. I do not see how sitting quiet and allowing "a spirit" work randomly among people in a room has anything to do with the Kingdom of God. Do they even read the Bible? From a Quaker blog:

"The best part of growing up Quaker?
For Charlie Brooker it was the lack of religion: "No one tried to hammer the God nail into my forehead at an impressionable age. In fact the best thing about being a Quaker was the lack of God in my life. As a Quaker I got to duck out of religious education lessons at my Church of England primary school."

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I am not sure how to answer your question. It is well known that Quakers are not a a group that follows the tradition of the Apostles where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the chief cornerstone. They do not believe in repentance set forth by power of the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit Baptism, water baptism, regeneration through the born again experience, the Lords supper (Eucharist) church structure laid out by Paul the Apostle and probably much more than that. I do not see how sitting quiet and allowing "a spirit" work randomly among people in a room has anything to do with the Kingdom of God. Do they even read the Bible? From a Quaker blog:

"The best part of growing up Quaker?
For Charlie Brooker it was the lack of religion: "No one tried to hammer the God nail into my forehead at an impressionable age. In fact the best thing about being a Quaker was the lack of God in my life. As a Quaker I got to duck out of religious education lessons at my Church of England primary school."

 

[timothyu]

That quote sounds like he was not avoiding God but avoiding having doctrine pounded into his head. I wonder which is more beneficial, living life as Jesus taught us or living under the rule of the church? The governance of God requires no middle man, yet the governance of man requires institutions to bow before.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That quote sounds like he was not avoiding God but avoiding having doctrine pounded into his head. I wonder which is more beneficial, living life as Jesus taught us or living under the rule of the church? The governance of God requires no middle man, yet the governance of man requires institutions to bow before.

The Church is the "Body of Christ" not a denomination. Quakerism is a denomination.

 

[timothyu]

The Church is the "Body of Christ" not a denomination. Quakerism is a denomination.

Yes but body of Christ and Church need not be an institution, but as in the pre-gentile beginning, an assembly of followers.

 

[PloverWing]

It is well known that Quakers are not a a group that follows the tradition of the Apostles where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the chief cornerstone. They do not believe in repentance set forth by power of the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit Baptism, water baptism, regeneration through the born again experience, the Lords supper (Eucharist) church structure laid out by Paul the Apostle and probably much more than that. I do not see how sitting quiet and allowing "a spirit" work randomly among people in a room has anything to do with the Kingdom of God. Do they even read the Bible?

Disclaimer: My experience of the Friends (Quakers) comes from some unprogrammed meetings in South Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania, together with reading of some writings by Quakers. This does not necessarily reflect the Quakers in other parts of the country, or in other countries. In particular, I have no experience with programmed meetings. With that said:

The Society of Friends, as I have experienced it, is an interesting combination of belief and practice that lies at the extreme end of Protestantism. There is no Magisterium, and no Creed. There is very little authority of one human being over another at all. God is present in each one of us.

One result of this is that there is a wide diversity of beliefs among Friends. With no Magisterium, no Creed, no authority within the community to impose discipline upon those who dissent, diversity has developed. Some Friends would affirm most of what's in the Nicene Creed. Others aren't sure that they want to use the word "God" to describe the Sacred. And lots of variations in between. That's more diversity of belief than many Christian churches are comfortable with. It's also something that the extreme-Protestant members of CF may want to think about.

So you're correct that modern Friends (at least, in the unprogrammed meetings) do not necessarily hold all the doctrinal beliefs of Nicene Christianity.

The irony is that they also follow the teachings of Jesus more closely than any other Christian group I have experienced. Nonviolence, simplicity of life, respect for all people, a really deep concern to see God's presence in the other person, and simultaneously to see God's presence in one's own self also -- these are deeply woven into the style of life that Friends practice. We're all flawed human beings, Friends included, but as far as humanly possible, they really do live the Sermon on the Mount on a daily basis.

I'm still trying to figure out what this means, that such scattered doctrinal beliefs coexist with such excellence of Christian practice.

So, do they follow "the tradition of the Apostles where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the chief cornerstone"? Not necessarily. And, at the same time, resoundingly yes.

 

[Halbhh]

Any one who does not preach Christ Jesus crucified has strayed from the truth

That's right. If you wanted to only diagnose how some go wrong, that's very good to do. It's when they listen to *some* select words they want to hear, and ignore the rest. For instance, to listen to some things Christ said, isolated verses, and not the rest of what He said. That ignoring is a step on a path to hell.

Now, here, we all believe in Him, as in the Apostle's creed --

"I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen."
-----
Now, as we learn from Christ, it's not enough to only believe. James helps us to point out that the demons believe, and tremble. More is required, that we repent of sins, falling on God's forgiveness through Christ Jesus of our sins, and that if we actually do believe (not merely believe in our own stuff we like, but all He says) then we will keep his words, remain in Him, and bear fruit ( John chapter 15).

Of course any Quakers in the past or present that haven't are not going to the narrow gate (Matthew chapter 7).

But, with the understanding of the only thing that saves, shouldn't we also listen to Christ in Matthew 7 also in the verses 7-11 (or 7-12)? Yes, of course we should. While this is about prayer, it's also about faith, and about silencing our own flesh (as Paul wrote in another wording in Romans chapter 8), and instead aiming to walk in the spirit. Today, in America, there is a lot of noise, and silencing all the noise from the world and the flesh is a part of walking in the spirit. Though there are so many ways, this is one of them -- silence (see more in post #14).

Thus, the interesting side of silence, or candle lighting, or silent moments in prayer (groanings too deep for words, Romans chapter 8), that instead of just our own voices, we listen to Him. Instead of wanting to hear ourselves, we want to be led by the spirit. You can see how silence would be a part of that, listening instead of talking.

 

[timothyu]

So, do they follow "the tradition of the Apostles where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the chief cornerstone"? Not necessarily. And, at the same time, resoundingly yes.

You mean living the Kingdom without the religion? Interesting concept.. no religion in the Kingdom.

 

[Halbhh]

who decides when to break the silence, and how do they know? it feels like anti-worship worship. the problem with this is everything becomes a system over time and eventually, quietness itself turns into a measure for spirituality. But pessimism aside it also sounds like a refreshing focus.

While when I went I was already someone that was reading Christ's words in the gospels, so that...I already was hearing what we definitely need to hear in some way...it was good in a certain way: instead of people talking from ego, or entertainment, or a fixed sermon without enough openness to the spirit (which happens of course at times in churches), instead of those, it was more like prayer, but together. We were "waiting on the Lord" at best. I know I was.

I would not go to a Quaker Meeting for Worship instead of a church with communion and preaching from the gospel!

Wouldn't even consider it.

But, I'd want to bring the one thing very good they are doing, and which many churches do -- seeking the Lord in some way, such as candle lighting, or moments of silence, or other ways, the waiting on the Lord. Seeking Him. Matthew ch 7, v 7-11

Of course, any believer can definitely do this on their own, alone, and many of us can, and being able to, should.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Yes but body of Christ and Church need not be an institution, but as in the pre-gentile beginning, an assembly of followers.

I did not say it was an institution. You will need to do deeper research on Quakerism.
Blessings

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Disclaimer: My experience of the Friends (Quakers) comes from some unprogrammed meetings in South Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania, together with reading of some writings by Quakers. This does not necessarily reflect the Quakers in other parts of the country, or in other countries. In particular, I have no experience with programmed meetings. With that said:

The Society of Friends, as I have experienced it, is an interesting combination of belief and practice that lies at the extreme end of Protestantism. There is no Magisterium, and no Creed. There is very little authority of one human being over another at all. God is present in each one of us.

One result of this is that there is a wide diversity of beliefs among Friends. With no Magisterium, no Creed, no authority within the community to impose discipline upon those who dissent, diversity has developed. Some Friends would affirm most of what's in the Nicene Creed. Others aren't sure that they want to use the word "God" to describe the Sacred. And lots of variations in between. That's more diversity of belief than many Christian churches are comfortable with. It's also something that the extreme-Protestant members of CF may want to think about.

So you're correct that modern Friends (at least, in the unprogrammed meetings) do not necessarily hold all the doctrinal beliefs of Nicene Christianity.

The irony is that they also follow the teachings of Jesus more closely than any other Christian group I have experienced. Nonviolence, simplicity of life, respect for all people, a really deep concern to see God's presence in the other person, and simultaneously to see God's presence in one's own self also -- these are deeply woven into the style of life that Friends practice. We're all flawed human beings, Friends included, but as far as humanly possible, they really do live the Sermon on the Mount on a daily basis.

I'm still trying to figure out what this means, that such scattered doctrinal beliefs coexist with such excellence of Christian practice.

So, do they follow "the tradition of the Apostles where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the chief cornerstone"? Not necessarily. And, at the same time, resoundingly yes.

Understood however at some point the spirit should be identified. Is it THE HOLY SPIRIT or a spirit that Jesus warned us about who masquerades among those who are not regenerated in Christ. This is the unsettling part of Quakerism.
Blessings

 

[timothyu]

I did not say it was an institution. You will need to do deeper research on Quakerism.
Blessings

I asked that a Quaker post here to clear things up. Thank you for doing so.

 

[Halbhh]

The assumption here is who ever speaks is speaking on behalf of the Holy Spirit. So that would count me out on attending as this is considered prophetic utterance, a gift given by the Holy Spirit and doubtful all members have this gift.
"Spoken messages may occur many times during a meeting, or there may be none at all. Such a message is delivered by an individual, but is understood to be coming through that person from God."

That's right. Without generally the people being converted Christians that really are following Christ, the format would not be a good thing. To me what is interesting though is how it could help converted Christians that follow Christ better learn how to silence the noise of the world, of the flesh, and instead seek the Lord. So, perhaps it would be better if my OP had pointed that out! If you think about it, you can see how that silence can be a form of prayer, and truly is for some, that make it so (Romans chapter 8).

 

[Halbhh]

I don't know anything about Quakers but from what I have read since taking interest in this topic, they purposely stay away from organized religion just for that reason, to avoid the brainwashing of group 'encouragement' of a particular denomination which locks them into that particular mindset. It seems Quakers are more like a group intent on social justice and are made up of those of varying denominational backgrounds. A Quaker here would be nice to verify or deny.

The Meeting to Worship are not numerous is my guess, based on what I noticed back then, more than 15 years ago. Not to say you couldn't find one around a region, but they'd be a very small percentage of church attenders of all kinds for sure.
(I'm looking over this site atm: Traditional Quaker Worship | Quaker Information Center)