Q & A Why did Paul break the Old Testament in Hebrews 8:13?

[fhansen]

The flesh will continue to war against the Spirit until we die and go to be with the Lord. Sometimes we win a battle with temptation and other times we don't. There is a difference between failing to resist temptation and sin in the flesh, and to allow that sin to go to one's heart. We also have to remember that temptation can come through our own lust, but other times it can be a fiery dart of the enemy that seeks to penetrate through a chink in our armour.

The problem with failing to resist a temptation is that when we fall off the holiness wagon, it affects our faith. We lose our peace, and it gives an opportunity for the devil to put the boot in to try and convince us that God is angry with us and that there is no forgiveness unless we jump through a whole lot of religious hoops in order to become accepted by God again. Of course this is a lie, because the Scripture says, "For a righteous man, one might give his life, but while we were yet sinners, Jesus died and gave Himself for us." So Jesus didn't die for those who had the potential to become righteous. He died for helpless, hopeless sinners who are condemned and on the road to hell. But the devil doesn't want us to know that, so he comes in with "You're never going to get to heaven now!" And this puts doubt in our minds, and we can get so discouraged, that we can develop a heart of unbelief and decide to walk away from Christ altogether. It is this discouragement and giving up on Christ that causes the sin to go from the flesh and into the heart. But we are protected as long as "with the heart we believe unto righteousness", in other words, we believe that we have received the righteousness of Christ that totally covers our sinfulness and enables us to confess our sin and be totally forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

In our hearts, we want to live holy lives to glorify Christ in us, and we mourn when because of temptation we can't achieve it in the way we want. As long as we continue to trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross from our hearts in spite of the conflict we have in our flesh, then we can maintain our assurance of salvation. Problems happen when we believe the devil when he tells us that we might as well give it all up because we are never going to succeed in holiness and that Christ will not want to know us at the judgment.

One thing I'm most certain of is that the early church along with the patristics never swayed from the belief that what we do counts. And that was really all James was meaning to say in the second chapter of his letter. Faith without works is dead and perhaps to put it an even better way, faith without love is dead. Augustine put it this way,
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

Love, by its nature, works, for the good of others, and in excluding sin in our lives. That's the gift of God, the gift of righteousness. That's what it means to be under grace, to live by the Spirit.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6

Under the new covenant we're to strive towards perfection, now capable of obtaining it even while it's known that we won't achieve it, won't achieve absolute sinlessness in this life. But that's the path that sons of God are to be on, and get back on by sincere repentance if we fall away again.

The very early church actually held that there was no repentance even possible if someone were to fall back into grave or serious sin. This is what they understood and there are several scriptural verses that can be appealed to for support of this concept as well. Many of the believers had given up much to become Christian, even their lives in many cases. An early bishop of Rome countered this position and eventually it was understood throughout the church that forgiveness with a true change of heart is always available with God. Sin was taken very seriously in any case. Either way, what we do after coming to know Christ, after the free gift of justification, now reconciled and united with God, counts towards eternal life.

 

[oikonomia]

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that our salvation is earned as the result of our good works, choosing to do good works by grace through faith is nevertheless a central part of our salvation. While there are many verses like Romans 4:1-5 that deny that our justification can be earned as the result of our good works, there are many verses like Romans 2:13 that support that only doers of the law will be justified, so clearly there must be reasons why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law.

I very often get the impression from your writing that if you had been in the gathering of the council in the church in Jerusalem in Acts 15, you would have been among the sect of Pharisees there.

"But certain men from the sect of the Pharisees who had believed rose up from among them, saying, It is necessary to circumcize them and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:5)

Why do I usually get the flavor from your post speaking highly of Torah keeping that the grace of Christ is not adaquate entirely? The Grace of Christ is for initial justification and for walking in righteousness as well. It seems you are suspicious of the inadaquacy of the grace of Christ.

Paul's entire confidence to have a conscience void of offense before God and man was rooted not in his own law keeping but in Christ
being in him each and everything he needed. His total faith was in the Person of Christ living out through him.

Philippians 3:8,9 - But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith,

Does Romans 3:20 say that by works of the law SOME flesh shall be justified or NO flesh shall be justified?

Because out of the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3:20)

To be fair, I did like this and thought you should give more attention to it.

"In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that our salvation is earned as the result of our good works, choosing to do good works by grace through faith is nevertheless a central part of our salvation.

The life power to enable man do these works is only in the indwelling grace of Christ not in how highly we remember that the Torah was.

 

[fhansen]

I very often get the impression from your writing that if you had been in the gathering of the council in the church in Jerusalem in Acts 15, you would have been among the sect of Pharisees there.

"But certain men from the sect of the Pharisees who had believed rose up from among them, saying, It is necessary to circumcize them and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:5)

Why do I usually get the flavor from your post speaking highly of Torah keeping that the grace of Christ is not adaquate entirely? The Grace of Christ is for initial justification and for walking in righteousness as well. It seems you are suspicious of the inadaquacy of the grace of Christ.

Paul's entire confidence to have a conscience void of offense before God and man was rooted not in his own law keeping but in Christ
being in him each and everything he needed. His total faith was in the Person of Christ living out through him.

Philippians 3:8,9 - But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith,

Does Romans 3:20 say that by works of the law SOME flesh shall be justified or NO flesh shall be justified?

Because out of the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3:20)

To be fair, I did like this and thought you should give more attention to it.

"In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that our salvation is earned as the result of our good works, choosing to do good works by grace through faith is nevertheless a central part of our salvation.

The life power to enable man do these works is only in the indwelling grace of Christ not in how highly we remember that the Torah was.

What I appreciate in Seyong's position is that he recognizes the necessity of righteousness/holiness/justice in man resulting in right actions in order to be saved. But the law reflects and testifies to that righteousness without being able to realize it in us. Only Christ, only God, can do that by virtue of reconciliation and union with Him first of all: "I will be their God and they will be my people"-Jer 31:33.

Many, on the other hand, don't recognize the necessity of personal righteousness in man, viewing grace as a sort of freedom from that obligation, rather than the means to actually fulfilling it. Faith is not a replacement or stand-in for righteousness, but the vehicle to the grace, to the God who alone can put His law in our minds and write in on our hearts.

To the extent that we believe in, hope in, and, ultimately and most importantly, love God, obedience begins to flow of its own accord. And that's a journey, being perfected in that love, to the purpose that we were created for.

 

[oikonomia]

According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Torah, so countless people have done that.

What I appreciate in Seyong's position is that he recognizes the necessity of righteousness/holiness/justice in man resulting in right actions in order to be saved.

Yes. I do see that. Soyeng cares that righteous living must follow the receiving of the gift of eternal redemption.

But the law reflects and testifies to that righteousness without being able to realize it in us. Only Christ, only God, can do that by virtue of reconciliation and union with Him first of all: "I will be their God and they will be my people"-Jer 31:33.

Yes. Only by the Triune God living and flowing through us, which is the grace of Christ, can there also be the hope of righteousness in practicality.

Galatians 5:5 - For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness.

The believers need the grace and more grace and the abundance of grace to reign in life righteously.
Romans 5:17b - " . . . much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Many, on the other hand, don't recognize the necessity of personal righteousness in man,

This also is true. From an overdose of Reformation theology little appreciation for the purpose of God IN our salvation is not seen.
Then just receiving a "ticket" to be admitted to a happy heaven (forever) becomes all the focus.

To the extent that Soyeng sees the need for this justifying righteousness to be lived out daily, is mentioned.

viewing grace as a sort of freedom from that obligation,

Sadly, this is true with some brethren.

rather than the means to actually fulfilling it. Faith is not a replacement or stand-in for righteousness, but the vehicle to the grace, to the God who alone can put His law in our minds and write in on our hearts.

It may have been pointed out already. I would like to do so that the writing of God's law on our hearts has two mentions in the NT.

1.) The work of the law written on the hearts of the heathen in Romans 12:14,15 -

For when Gentiles, who have no law, do by nature the things of the law, these, though they have no law, are a law to themselves,
who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness with it and their reasonings, one with the other, accusing or even excusing them.)

This should be the human conscience, though having no knowledge of the Law of Moses, innately agree within with many of the right moral
nature with good and right things God commands.

2.) The law of life - or the Holy Spirit inscribing the personality of Christ into the souls of those who receive Him as the Spirit in their spirit.

Hebrews10:16 - “This is the covenant which I will covenant with them after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws upon their hearts, and upon their mind I will inscribe them,”

And this inscribing of God divine life and nature into man is according to the promise of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31:33.
We should not confuse the two. They are not the same work of God.
The first refers to the work of God the Creator in creating man in His image.
The second refers to the Triune God having passed through a process by which He can be imparted into the redeemed and justified.

To the extent that we believe in, hope in, and, ultimately and most importantly, love God, obedience begins to flow of its own accord. And that's a journey, being perfected in that love, to the purpose that we were created for.

This was very good.

 

[fhansen]

Yes. I do see that. Soyeng cares that righteous living must follow the receiving of the gift of eternal redemption.

Yes. Only by the Triune God living and flowing through us, which is the grace of Christ, can there also be the hope of righteousness in practicality.

Galatians 5:5 - For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness.

The believers need the grace and more grace and the abundance of grace to reign in life righteously.
Romans 5:17b - " . . . much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

This also is true. From an overdose of Reformation theology little appreciation for the purpose of God IN our salvation is not seen.
Then just receiving a "ticket" to be admitted to a happy heaven (forever) becomes all the focus.

To the extent that Soyeng sees the need for this justifying righteousness to be lived out daily, is mentioned.

Sadly, this is true with some brethren.

It may have been pointed out already. I would like to do so that the writing of God's law on our hearts has two mentions in the NT.

1.) The work of the law written on the hearts of the heathen in Romans 12:14,15 -

For when Gentiles, who have no law, do by nature the things of the law, these, though they have no law, are a law to themselves,
who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness with it and their reasonings, one with the other, accusing or even excusing them.)

This should be the human conscience, though having no knowledge of the Law of Moses, innately agree within with many of the right moral
nature with good and right things God commands.

2.) The law of life - or the Holy Spirit inscribing the personality of Christ into the souls of those who receive Him as the Spirit in their spirit.

Hebrews10:16 - “This is the covenant which I will covenant with them after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws upon their hearts, and upon their mind I will inscribe them,”

And this inscribing of God divine life and nature into man is according to the promise of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31:33.
We should not confuse the two. They are not the same work of God.
The first refers to the work of God the Creator in creating man in His image.
The second refers to the Triune God having passed through a process by which He can be imparted into the redeemed and justified.

This was very good.

Thank you-nice post. The law which is already written in men's hearts, has sometimes been referred to as the "natural law". It really is God's voice in us but with and due to the the fall that voice was disregarded, dismissed, compromised, dimmed, obscured, overridden as man favored his own voice instead. Augustine put it this way, "God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

With the NC man is called to recognize God as his God again. Then He does the writing- or rewriting-with the healing, transforming, making whole, the giving of a new heart,

 

[Soyeong]

Why do I usually get the flavor from your post speaking highly of Torah keeping that the grace of Christ is not adaquate entirely? It seems you are suspicious of the inadaquacy of the grace of Christ.

Those are not my views. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faithfulness by putting it on his heart, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah, and in John 17:3, knowing God is eternal life. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God twas gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way through His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith.and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so promoting Torah keeping does not diminish the grace of Christ, but rather he is gracious to us by teaching us to obey it.

I very often get the impression from your writing that if you had been in the gathering of the council in the church in Jerusalem in Acts 15, you would have been among the sect of Pharisees there.

"But certain men from the sect of the Pharisees who had believed rose up from among them, saying, It is necessary to circumcize them and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:5)

Indeed, I would likely be one of the sect of Pharisees from among the believer in Acts 15:5 who were arguing in favor of salvation by grace against the men from Judea in Acts 15:1 who were arguing in favor of salvation by circumcision.

Paul's entire confidence to have a conscience void of offense before God and man was rooted not in his own law keeping but in Christ
being in him each and everything he needed. His total faith was in the Person of Christ living out through him.

Philippians 3:8,9 - But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith,

The Torah is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so he embodied God's word by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it, so us also embodying God's word through following his example is the way to believe in Christ and be in him, which is why 1 John 2:6 says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so that combined with Exodus 33:13 means that the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which again is eternal life, so Philippians 3:8-9 should not be mistaken as saying that the Torah is refuse and we just need to know Christ instead, but rather Paul had been obeying the Torah while not having a focus on knowing Jesus, so he had been missing the whole goal of the Torah and that is what he counted as refuse.

Does Romans 3:20 say that by works of the law SOME flesh shall be justified or NO flesh shall be justified?

Because out of the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3:20)

To be fair, I did like this and thought you should give more attention to it.

"In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that our salvation is earned as the result of our good works, choosing to do good works by grace through faith is nevertheless a central part of our salvation.

The life power to enable man do these works is only in the indwelling grace of Christ not in how highly we remember that the Torah was.

We do not earn our justification as the result of obeying the Torah because it was never given as a means of doing that (Romans 4:1-5), or in other words, that was never the goal of the Torah, which is why there are many verses that speak against trying to do that. Nevertheless, Paul also said that only doers of the Torah will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be reasons that our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the Torah other than earning our justification as the result of obeying it, such as faith, which is why our faith does not abolish our need to obey it, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying the Torah, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

Yes. I do see that. Soyeng cares that righteous living must follow the receiving of the gift of eternal redemption.

It is not that righteous living needs to precede or follow the receiving the gift of eternal redemption, but that righteous living is itself the content of the gift of eternal redemption. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is neither earned as the result of having done those works nor does doing those works follow having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to have and believe in the eternal redemption that he secured for us through the cross (Acts 21:20).

 

[oikonomia]

Those are not my views. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faithfulness by putting it on his heart, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

Psalm 119 as well as all of the Hebrew Bible was God's word. God's word was and is always profitable for hearing, loving, obeying.
Sometimes in Psalm 119 David a great lover of God called it God's ordinances, testimonies, judgements, statutes, precepts, commandments or laws. Many times he just referred to it as what it was, God's word (or words). (vs.9,11,16,17,25,28,38,41,42,57,58,65,67,74,81,103,107,116, . . . etc)

Of course to muse, meditate, love as sweet as honey, and be made wise, be enlightened, comforted, exposed, by the words out of the mouth of God is always profitable. It is never to be despised. And all the overcoming patriarchs and saints of the Old Testament time loved the words out of the mouth of God.

This is the ever very positive aspect of the law of God. It was after all the speaking of God which if loved by man does him great benefit to receive. Man lives by every word out from the mouth of God says the Lord Jesus when there was only the Hebrew Bible as His word.

While David exemplified one who absolutely loved God's word, musing, meditating, following, and obeying it as best he could (usually), the end of that Psalm shows he knew he was not able to keep the law. The very last verse of that long Psalm 119 ironically arrives at his confession.

"I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek Your servant, For I have not forgotten Your commandments." (verse 176).

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah, and in John 17:3, knowing God is eternal life. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God twas gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way through His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith.and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so promoting Torah keeping does not diminish the grace of Christ, but rather he is gracious to us by teaching us to obey it.

All this is appreciated in the gradual unfolding of God's economy. But the contrast between the law and grace is stark in the Gospel.

For the law was given through Moses grace and reality came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)

The Holy Spirit did not have John write "grace came through Moses".
Grace came with the coming of Jesus. Moses gave the law which is God's profitable word. When the Person of Jesus came GRACE and REALITY came with and in Him.

It is in His fulness we can receive grace upon grace - grace in layers infinitely empowering and enabling man to live unto the Father.
For of His fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace. (v.16)

Grace is Christ being in us and to us everything we need.
In my enthusiasm to assure believers that God's word is always to be loved, mused upon, adhered to, and regarded as sweet, enlightening, profitable for instruction in righteouesness in both ages, law keeping is replaced by living Christ.

"Abide in Me and I in you." is a supernatural kind of command. If we linger, abide, and remain in the realm of this living Person Jesus, He in turn will live again on the earth through us. The commandment is reflective "Abide in Me and I in you." And apart from this abiding in the living indwelling Christ we can do nothing.

The Apostle Paul pioneered in this as a pattern to all New Testament believers. And this though ethically he was an law keeper a cut above most of his contemporaries. He was by the statutes and ordinanaces of Moses very examplarary. He had NO confidence in his flesh. Of course he had no confidence in his sinning flesh. But he also had no confidence in the will power of his ethical law keeping flesh as well. All his confidence was in the indwelling Spirit of Christ. He had ZERO confidence in his ethical will power to obey the law of Moses. Rather he DENIED himself, died to that way of living through baptism into Christ's death. This putting off of the flesh (good or bad) was the reality of circumcision.

For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil 3:3)

What is it that he counted as refuse, dog food? It was this self confidence by which he formerly lived.

Though I myself have something to be confident of in the flesh as well. If any other man thinks that he has confidence in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day; of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
As to zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness which is in the law, become blameless. (Phil. 3:4-6)

This was his pedigree and pride formerly - his zeal for law keeping all that God spoke through Moses.
He now counts all that he boasted in before as refuse on account of the excellency of knowing the living and indwelling Christ.

But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ.
But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ (vs. 7,8)

He only sought to gain Christ more and more. That is to have his very soul transformed by this one so that there was less and less of Paul and more and more of Christ living in Paul. It is our life long pursuit to GAIN Christ, encrease in Christ, and sink deeper into this union with Him.
That is where the apostle wished to be found.

I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ
And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (vs. 8b-9)

Indeed, I would likely be one of the sect of Pharisees from among the believer in Acts 15:5 who were arguing in favor of salvation by grace against the men from Judea in Acts 15:1 who were arguing in favor of salvation by circumcision.

This was the same group of people with the same attitude.

Verse 5 - But certain men from the sect of the Pharisees who had believed rose up from among them, saying, It is necessary to circumcise them and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
Verse 1 - And certain men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers, Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

It was the same attitude in both instances. They both argued the new believers needed to go back to the old covenant of law keeping.

The Torah is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so he embodied God's word by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it, so us also embodying God's word through following his example is the way to believe in Christ and be in him, which is why 1 John 2:6 says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked.

The only way to walk as He walked is to abide in Him. It is the anointing which is the Spirit "rubbing" into the soul as an ointment the life and nature of Jesus. John's teaching if walking as He walked depends upon abiding in the inward teaching of the anointing. This anointing ever teaches the believers to remain in His presence and be guided by the very index of His facial expression as it were.

First John 2:27 - And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him.

This is John echoing the Lord's words that if we abide in Him as the true vine, in turn He will abide in us. The branches can do nothing apart from abiding in the true vine. The life comes from the vine and flows into the abiding branches swallowing up sin, weakness, failure, self righteousness, and everything against God's life.

This anointing John refers to teaches us even as you pointed out the grace of God TRAINS us to deny ungodliness.
And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know. (1 John 2:20)

And John, as also Paul, would have no one lead his audience astray from this abiding.

As for you, that which you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. If that which you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise which He Himself promised us, the eternal life.
These things I have written to you concerning those who lead you astray. ( 1 John 2:24-26)

A naturally zealous ethical person must all the more learn to abide in the living anointing the Person of the Spirit.
Any imitating of Jesus as "an example" without living Jesus is like a poodle walking on its hind legs imitating a man.
Or it is like training a chimpanzee to put on human cloths and act for a moment like a human. This religious imitation is a work of the flesh and actually gets in the way. For it is self perfection and self improvement. What is needed is to DIE to the self. And the leftovers in him who dies to the self is the resurrection life of Christ.

The Christian life in absolutely only by and in the resurrection power of Christ.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so that combined with Exodus 33:13 means that the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which again is eternal life, so Philippians 3:8-9 should not be mistaken as saying that the Torah is refuse and we just need to know Christ instead, but rather Paul had been obeying the Torah while not having a focus on knowing Jesus, so he had been missing the whole goal of the Torah and that is what he counted as refuse.

The Torah is not refuse. All Scripture profitable to the man of God.

All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
That the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16,17)

What Paul counted as refuse was being found in his own law keeping righteousness as he was as a zealous Pharisee.
Such law keeping prompted him to severely persecute Christ Himself. This was his boast foremerly. He was proud of his zeal for the law of Moses. Such zeal he henceforth counted not his boast but refuse on account of knowing the living Person of Christ.

To know Christ ALL Scripture is nourishing to the hearing of faith. The word sensatizs the concience. And God ever uses all of His words to divide the soul from the spirit as a sharpt two edge sword. "This is Christ in you. And this is simply YOU."

For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature that is not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we are to give our account. ( Heb. 4:12,13)

We need the convicting of the entire word of God - both old testament and new.
We need the faith of hearing it. The hearing of faith is how we receive more of the Spirit.
And the Spirit supplies. For the Spirit is the Lord Jesus in another form capable of living and blending with our very being.

Galatians 3:2,3 - This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

The works of power done in the lives of the Galatian believers resulting in their transformation, was by the hearing of faith.

Verse 4 - He therefore who bountifully supplies to you the Spirit and does works of power among you, does He do it out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?

Paul goes on to say to continue to endevour to be a law keeper apart from Christ is to be under a curse. And this even though the word of God is tasty sweet, enlightening, feeding, precious, exposing and profitable.

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.” (v.10)

 

[oikonomia]

We do not earn our justification as the result of obeying the Torah because it was never given as a means of doing that (Romans 4:1-5), or in other words, that was never the goal of the Torah, which is why there are many verses that speak against trying to do that. Nevertheless, Paul also said that only doers of the Torah will be justified (Romans 2:13),

I think Paul was clarifying the principle. He was not saying anyone was ever so justified by this law keeping. Otherwise he would not have followed specifically to say by the works of the law no flesh would be justified. He is speaking of the principle of law keepimg, not of the success of anyone to be justified apart from the redemption of Christ.

Because out of the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3:20)

Romans 2:13 speaks of the principle of what no one can be successful.
Romans 3:20 proves no one apart from justification by faith can by law keeping be justified before a Perfect God.

The just, in fact, shall have life and live by FAITH. (Romans 1:16,17; Hebrews 10:38; comp. Habakkuk 2:4)
Not only are we initially justified by faith.
For Christ to make His home, settling down in every chamber of our psychological and spiritual heart is ALSO by faith.

That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, (Eph. 3:17)

From receiving by faith Christ as my Savior I must also go on BY the same faith to allow Him to FILL my personality.
He dwells in our innermost spiritual being, our spirit. And into THAT realm He must strengthen us for the purpose of Him moving into each and every chamber of our personality.

That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,
That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are
And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. (vs. 16-19)

By the sheer power of His operating life He is able to do far above all that we ask or even think.
So we must both ask and think expecting He is able to do superabundantly above both in us.

But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us,
To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (vs. 20,21)

For length I stop here.

so there must be reasons that our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the Torah other than earning our justification as the result of obeying it, such as faith, which is why our faith does not abolish our need to obey it, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying the Torah, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

Our salvation is not only from the BAD self. It is from the GOOD self as well.
Peter was a sinful man who asked the Lord to depart from him.
Paul was a righteous (or self righteous) religious zealot.

Both needed to die to the self whether the typical uncouth self or the pious law keeping self.
Nicodemus was a "victor of the people" needing a new birth. (John 3)
The woman at the well was a chronic adulteror. (John 4)

Both needed another life - the divine life and nature of Christ.

It is not that righteous living needs to precede or follow the receiving the gift of eternal redemption, but that righteous living is itself the content of the gift of eternal redemption.

That is good to mention.
The content in both cases is Christ Himself.
Christ is our rigtheousness. Christ HIMSELF is our righteousness.

And after being put into Christ as our righteousness objectively before a Perfect God He must become our living.
Then becomming our living He becomes our righteousness subjectively - righteous deeds or righteousnessES.

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
That as it is written, “He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord." ( 1 Cor. 1:30)

Christ, at every step and every stage is our ONLY hope and only boast. God can dispense this Christ into our being.

In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him.

Of course.
This is not imitation. This is obeying the teaching of the indwelling anointing to ever abide in Him.

According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is neither earned as the result of having done those works nor does doing those works follow having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

I am glad you refer to this TRAINING. For it is a life long training of denying the self to enjoy all that Christ is instead.

Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to have and believe in the eternal redemption that he secured for us through the cross (Acts 21:20).

Don't you just love the Lord Jesus?
We love the redeeming work.
We also love the putting to death of the good or bad self to enjoy the resurrection life of Christ which meets our every need.
Praise Him for His dispensing of Himself into our beings.

 

[Soyeong]

Psalm 119 as well as all of the Hebrew Bible was God's word. God's word was and is always profitable for hearing, loving, obeying.
Sometimes in Psalm 119 David a great lover of God called it God's ordinances, testimonies, judgements, statutes, precepts, commandments or laws. Many times he just referred to it as what it was, God's word (or words). (vs.9,11,16,17,25,28,38,41,42,57,58,65,67,74,81,103,107,116, . . . etc)

Of course to muse, meditate, love as sweet as honey, and be made wise, be enlightened, comforted, exposed, by the words out of the mouth of God is always profitable. It is never to be despised. And all the overcoming patriarchs and saints of the Old Testament time loved the words out of the mouth of God.

This is the ever very positive aspect of the law of God. It was after all the speaking of God which if loved by man does him great benefit to receive. Man lives by every word out from the mouth of God says the Lord Jesus when there was only the Hebrew Bible as His word.

While David exemplified one who absolutely loved God's word, musing, meditating, following, and obeying it as best he could (usually), the end of that Psalm shows he knew he was not able to keep the law. The very last verse of that long Psalm 119 ironically arrives at his confession.

"I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek Your servant, For I have not forgotten Your commandments." (verse 176).

All this is appreciated in the gradual unfolding of God's economy. But the contrast between the law and grace is stark in the Gospel.

For the law was given through Moses grace and reality came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)

The Holy Spirit did not have John write "grace came through Moses".
Grace came with the coming of Jesus. Moses gave the law which is God's profitable word. When the Person of Jesus came GRACE and REALITY came with and in Him.

It is in His fulness we can receive grace upon grace - grace in layers infinitely empowering and enabling man to live unto the Father.
For of His fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace. (v.16)

Grace is Christ being in us and to us everything we need.
In my enthusiasm to assure believers that God's word is always to be loved, mused upon, adhered to, and regarded as sweet, enlightening, profitable for instruction in righteouesness in both ages, law keeping is replaced by living Christ.

"Abide in Me and I in you." is a supernatural kind of command. If we linger, abide, and remain in the realm of this living Person Jesus, He in turn will live again on the earth through us. The commandment is reflective "Abide in Me and I in you." And apart from this abiding in the living indwelling Christ we can do nothing.

I'm not sure how what you said about Psalms 119:29-30 interacted with my point that it is showing that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example. In John 1:16-17, it speaks about grace upon grace, so it is speaking about one example of grace being added upon another, which is in accordance with the verses that I cited, not making a contrast between law and grace, but rather righteousness and graciousness have always been compatible attributes of God that He expressed throughout both the OT and the NT. God's law is His instructions for how to abide in Christ, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so living in Christ does not replace law keeping, but rather rejecting law keeping is rejecting being in Christ.

The Apostle Paul pioneered in this as a pattern to all New Testament believers. And this though ethically he was an law keeper a cut above most of his contemporaries. He was by the statutes and ordinanaces of Moses very examplarary. He had NO confidence in his flesh. Of course he had no confidence in his sinning flesh. But he also had no confidence in the will power of his ethical law keeping flesh as well. All his confidence was in the indwelling Spirit of Christ. He had ZERO confidence in his ethical will power to obey the law of Moses. Rather he DENIED himself, died to that way of living through baptism into Christ's death. This putting off of the flesh (good or bad) was the reality of circumcision.

For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil 3:3)

What is it that he counted as refuse, dog food? It was this self confidence by which he formerly lived.

Though I myself have something to be confident of in the flesh as well. If any other man thinks that he has confidence in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day; of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
As to zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness which is in the law, become blameless. (Phil. 3:4-6)

This was his pedigree and pride formerly - his zeal for law keeping all that God spoke through Moses.
He now counts all that he boasted in before as refuse on account of the excellency of knowing the living and indwelling Christ.

But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ.
But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ (vs. 7,8)

He only sought to gain Christ more and more. That is to have his very soul transformed by this one so that there was less and less of Paul and more and more of Christ living in Paul. It is our life long pursuit to GAIN Christ, encrease in Christ, and sink deeper into this union with Him.
That is where the apostle wished to be found.

I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ
And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (vs. 8b-9)

Please interact with what I said about Philippians 3:

"In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so that combined with Exodus 33:13 means that the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which again is eternal life, so Philippians 3:8-9 should not be mistaken as saying that the Torah is refuse and we just need to know Christ instead, but rather Paul had been obeying the Torah while not having a focus on knowing Jesus, so he had been missing the whole goal of the Torah and that is what he counted as refuse."

This was the same group of people with the same attitude.

Verse 5 - But certain men from the sect of the Pharisees who had believed rose up from among them, saying, It is necessary to circumcise them and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
Verse 1 - And certain men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers, Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

It was the same attitude in both instances. They both argued the new believers needed to go back to the old covenant of law keeping.

In Act 15:1, there was a group of men who came down from Judea who were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised according to the custom of Moses in order to become saved. In Acts 15:5, they were opposed by believers from among the Pharisees who agreed that Gentiles should become circumcised and obey the Torah, but not in order to result in become saved. In Acts 15:6-7, Peter said that God made a choice among them that by his mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Gentiles repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of them hearing and believing the Gospel. In Acts 15:8-9, Peter said that God who knows the heart bore witness to them by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did us. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Torah. In Acts 15:10-11, he ruled in favor of salvation by grace while considering salvation by circumcision to be a burden that no one could bear, so everything that Peter argued was in favor of the believers from among the Pharisees in Acts 15:5 and against the men from Judea in Acts 15:1. Furthermore, in Acts 15:11-21, they saw the inclusion of Gentiles as being part of the restoration of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy and expected Gentiles to continue to learn about how to obey the Torah by haring Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

The only way to walk as He walked is to abide in Him. It is the anointing which is the Spirit "rubbing" into the soul as an ointment the life and nature of Jesus. John's teaching if walking as He walked depends upon abiding in the inward teaching of the anointing. This anointing ever teaches the believers to remain in His presence and be guided by the very index of His facial expression as it were.

First John 2:27 - And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him.

This is John echoing the Lord's words that if we abide in Him as the true vine, in turn He will abide in us. The branches can do nothing apart from abiding in the true vine. The life comes from the vine and flows into the abiding branches swallowing up sin, weakness, failure, self righteousness, and everything against God's life.

This anointing John refers to teaches us even as you pointed out the grace of God TRAINS us to deny ungodliness.
And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know. (1 John 2:20)

And John, as also Paul, would have no one lead his audience astray from this abiding.

As for you, that which you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. If that which you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise which He Himself promised us, the eternal life.
These things I have written to you concerning those who lead you astray. ( 1 John 2:24-26)

A naturally zealous ethical person must all the more learn to abide in the living anointing the Person of the Spirit.
Any imitating of Jesus as "an example" without living Jesus is like a poodle walking on its hind legs imitating a man.
Or it is like training a chimpanzee to put on human cloths and act for a moment like a human. This religious imitation is a work of the flesh and actually gets in the way. For it is self perfection and self improvement. What is needed is to DIE to the self. And the leftovers in him who dies to the self is the resurrection life of Christ.

The Christian life in absolutely only by and in the resurrection power of Christ.

Walking in the same way that Christ walked in obedience to the Torah is synonymous with abiding in him, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6) and why those who continue to practice sin in disobedience to it do not abide in him (1 John 3:4-10). Imitating Jesus without living according to the Spirit is not imitating Jesus. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are all against the Torah, not in accordance with it, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

The Torah is not refuse. All Scripture profitable to the man of God.

All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
That the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16,17)

What Paul counted as refuse was being found in his own law keeping righteousness as he was as a zealous Pharisee.
Such law keeping prompted him to severely persecute Christ Himself. This was his boast foremerly. He was proud of his zeal for the law of Moses. Such zeal he henceforth counted not his boast but refuse on account of knowing the living Person of Christ.

To know Christ ALL Scripture is nourishing to the hearing of faith. The word sensatizs the concience. And God ever uses all of His words to divide the soul from the spirit as a sharpt two edge sword. "This is Christ in you. And this is simply YOU."

For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature that is not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we are to give our account. ( Heb. 4:12,13)

We need the convicting of the entire word of God - both old testament and new.
We need the faith of hearing it. The hearing of faith is how we receive more of the Spirit.
And the Spirit supplies. For the Spirit is the Lord Jesus in another form capable of living and blending with our very being.

Galatians 3:2,3 - This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

The works of power done in the lives of the Galatian believers resulting in their transformation, was by the hearing of faith.

Verse 4 - He therefore who bountifully supplies to you the Spirit and does works of power among you, does He do it out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?

Paul goes on to say to continue to endevour to be a law keeper apart from Christ is to be under a curse. And this even though the word of God is tasty sweet, enlightening, feeding, precious, exposing and profitable.

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.” (v.10)

Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and he gave himself in order to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works in obedience to it (Titus 2:14).

In Romans 9:30-10, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the Torah by pursuing it as those righteousness were the result go their works in order to establish their own instead of pursuing the Torah as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the Torah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. Paul was in a similar situation in regard to Philippians 3 where he had been missing the whole goal of the Torah, which is what he counted as rubbish.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to the Torah. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11. According to Deuteronomy 27-28, the way to be blesses is by relying on the Torah while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as quoting from Deuteronomy 27-28 in order to support a point that is arguing against it by saying that relying on the Torah is the way to be cursed while not relying on it is the way to avoid being cursed. Rather, not relying on the Torah is the way to be cursed, so the reason why all of those who rely on works of the law are under a curse is because they are doing that instead of relying on the Torah. Furthermore, in Galatians 3:11-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 saying that the one who obeys the Torah will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Torah while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike the Torah. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore the Torah is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by trusting in what He has instructed, while to say that what God has instructed is not of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

 

[Soyeong]

I think Paul was clarifying the principle. He was not saying anyone was ever so justified by this law keeping. Otherwise he would not have followed specifically to say by the works of the law no flesh would be justified. He is speaking of the principle of law keepimg, not of the success of anyone to be justified apart from the redemption of Christ.

Because out of the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3:20)

Romans 2:13 speaks of the principle of what no one can be successful.
Romans 3:20 proves no one apart from justification by faith can by law keeping be justified before a Perfect God.

The just, in fact, shall have life and live by FAITH. (Romans 1:16,17; Hebrews 10:38; comp. Habakkuk 2:4)
Not only are we initially justified by faith.
For Christ to make His home, settling down in every chamber of our psychological and spiritual heart is ALSO by faith.

That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, (Eph. 3:17)

From receiving by faith Christ as my Savior I must also go on BY the same faith to allow Him to FILL my personality.
He dwells in our innermost spiritual being, our spirit. And into THAT realm He must strengthen us for the purpose of Him moving into each and every chamber of our personality.

That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,
That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are
And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. (vs. 16-19)

By the sheer power of His operating life He is able to do far above all that we ask or even think.
So we must both ask and think expecting He is able to do superabundantly above both in us.

But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us,
To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (vs. 20,21)

For length I stop here.

1 can lead 2 to and 1 can lead to 3 while 2 does not lead to 3, so the same faith by which we are justified can also uphold God's law (Romans 3:31), but we do not earn our justification as a wage as the result of obeying it. In other words, only those who have faith will both be justified and are doer of the Torah, only those who will be justified both have faith and are doer of the Torah, only those who are doers of the Torah both have faith and will be justified, but we do not earn our justification by being a doers of the Torah.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to obey Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the ones who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said i Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept Gd's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to the Torah is referred to as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, disobedience is equated with unbelief. So the Torah is God's instructions for how to have faith in Him.

Our salvation is not only from the BAD self. It is from the GOOD self as well.
Peter was a sinful man who asked the Lord to depart from him.
Paul was a righteous (or self righteous) religious zealot.

Both needed to die to the self whether the typical uncouth self or the pious law keeping self.
Nicodemus was a "victor of the people" needing a new birth. (John 3)
The woman at the well was a chronic adulteror. (John 4)

Both needed another life - the divine life and nature of Christ.

Nowhere does the Bible say that our salvation is from our Good self. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah, but in order to free us from all lawlessness. The problem with Paul was not that he needed to be saved from keeping the Torah, but that he was missing the whole goal of keeping it. The correct solution to incorrectly obeying the Torah is to start obeying it correctly not to stop obeying it.

That is good to mention.
The content in both cases is Christ Himself.
Christ is our rigtheousness. Christ HIMSELF is our righteousness.

And after being put into Christ as our righteousness objectively before a Perfect God He must become our living.
Then becomming our living He becomes our righteousness subjectively - righteous deeds or righteousnessES.

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
That as it is written, “He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord." ( 1 Cor. 1:30)

Christ, at every step and every stage is our ONLY hope and only boast. God can dispense this Christ into our being.

Christ is God's word made flesh, so he embodied God's word by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it, so saying that the content of gift is Christ is the same as saying that the content of the gift is us also embodying God's word through following his example of obedience to the Torah, which is essentially the same as saying that righteous living is the content of the gift.

In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of God's nature, so among other aspects of God's nature, the Son is the personification of righteousness, so there is not righteousness about from the nature of who he is, and all righteous actions in obedience to the Torah are testifying about his righteousness, which has nothing to do with trying to establish our own.

Of course.
This is not imitation. This is obeying the teaching of the indwelling anointing to ever abide in Him.

I am glad you refer to this TRAINING. For it is a life long training of denying the self to enjoy all that Christ is instead.

Don't you just love the Lord Jesus?
We love the redeeming work.
We also love the putting to death of the good or bad self to enjoy the resurrection life of Christ which meets our every need.
Praise Him for His dispensing of Himself into our beings.

Yes love the Lord Jesus, which is why I obey the Torah (John 14:23-24).

 

[fhansen]

1 can lead 2 to and 1 can lead to 3 while 2 does not lead to 3, so the same faith by which we are justified can also uphold God's law (Romans 3:31), but we do not earn our justification as a wage as the result of obeying it. In other words, only those who have faith will both be justified and are doer of the Torah, only those who will be justified both have faith and are doer of the Torah, only those who are doers of the Torah both have faith and will be justified, but we do not earn our justification by being a doers of the Torah.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to obey Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the ones who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said i Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept Gd's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to the Torah is referred to as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, disobedience is equated with unbelief. So the Torah is God's instructions for how to have faith in Him.


Nowhere does the Bible say that our salvation is from our Good self. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah, but in order to free us from all lawlessness. The problem with Paul was not that he needed to be saved from keeping the Torah, but that he was missing the whole goal of keeping it. The correct solution to incorrectly obeying the Torah is to start obeying it correctly not to stop obeying it.


Christ is God's word made flesh, so he embodied God's word by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it, so saying that the content of gift is Christ is the same as saying that the content of the gift is us also embodying God's word through following his example of obedience to the Torah, which is essentially the same as saying that righteous living is the content of the gift.

In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of God's nature, so among other aspects of God's nature, the Son is the personification of righteousness, so there is not righteousness about from the nature of who he is, and all righteous actions in obedience to the Torah are testifying about his righteousness, which has nothing to do with trying to establish our own.


Yes love the Lord Jesus, which is why I obey the Torah (John 14:23-24).

Personally I think we retain our state of justice, and therefore our salvation, by our obedience, our grace-driven obedience, grace that we can nonetheless always resist. If we live unjustly, we won't see the Lord.

And aside from myself I think that's what James was getting at in chap 2, along with the continual position of the church in the east and west as well as the ECFs from the beginning.

 

[oikonomia]

I'm not sure how what you said about Psalms 119:29-30 interacted with my point that it is showing that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

I don't see where I referred verses 29-30 at all.

In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example.

According to your attitude the Aposle John could have just as well said grace and truth came through Ezra, or Hezekiah.
A number of Old Testament people loved the law and taught the Israelites about it. We cannot reduce the ministry of the Son of God to merely being ANOTHER good example of Torah adherance. You reduce the Son of God to bringing grace and truth no different from how Nehemiah or Aaron "brought grace and truth."

The subtle tendency of trying to exalt the Torah to the same level of the Son of God is to reduce the need for the Son to come.

In John 1:16-17, it speaks about grace upon grace, so it is speaking about one example of grace being added upon another, which is in accordance with the verses that I cited, not making a contrast between law and grace, but rather righteousness and graciousness have always been compatible attributes of God that He expressed throughout both the OT and the NT. God's law is His instructions for how to abide in Christ, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so living in Christ does not replace law keeping, but rather rejecting law keeping is rejecting being in Christ.

John writing his gospel is speaking from experience of years of Christ indwelling him. The grace upon grace he speaks of receiving is that indwelling power of life, Christ's divine life that has been dispensed into the believers. This is the grace which multiplies as the multiplication of living cells. And enjoyment upon enjoyment of another life, the life of the Spirit, is the meaning of John 1:16-17.

Of course God was "gracious" to the disciples to call them to follow Jesus. God can be gracious to many people without dispensing His divine life into them. So I have a problem with you wanting to reduce New Testament grace to simply mean God is gracious to someone. God was gracious to Abimelech in Genesis 20, not allowing him to sin against Abraham's wife. God was gracious to Hagar and Ishmael. God was gracious to Nebuchadnessor awakening him from his acting like an ox for seven years. God can be gracious to many people without dispensing His life into them.

Though imparting His Spirit of life into man certainly is a gracious act, not every instance of God being gracious involves this.
God can be gracious to someone on a merely outward way without flowing His Spirit into them as grace. So I would not use God graciously showing Moses all His goodness as He walked before Moses hidden in the cleft of a rock as a definition of New Testament grace.

This grace in the New Testament is not merely outward finding favor with God. It is a living Person who is joined in an "organic" blending with the spirit of man.

Ga 6:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.
Pp 4:23 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
2Ti 4:22 The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

The grace of Christ is Christ Himself living in the innermost spiritual being of the believer.
The Lord with his spirit is the Grace with him. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
The aged Apostle John writing his gospel spoke from the standpoint of years now of experiencing Christ as Another Comforter, the Spirit, living in his spirit. And he spoke for many others too.

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:16,17)

This was the grace of a Perfect Person in the form of the Spirit of life living in him.
This of course includes God being gracious to men. But it includes much more of the Triune God LIVING in men.

Please interact with what I said about Philippians 3:

"In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so that combined with Exodus 33:13 means that the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which again is eternal life, so Philippians 3:8-9 should not be mistaken as saying that the Torah is refuse and we just need to know Christ instead, but rather Paul had been obeying the Torah while not having a focus on knowing Jesus, so he had been missing the whole goal of the Torah and that is what he counted as refuse."

Right now I don't want to a long post about Matthew 7:23. Suffice it at this time to say Matthew's gospel of the kingdom of the heavens is a warning that this grace is not a cheap thing. It is for His kingdom, His government, His administration on the earth. There are consequences for regarding His grace cheaply as only "outward favor" which has no effect on subjective living.

Unless our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees we shall not enjoy the reward of the millennial kingdom.
Some who presumptious did things apparently related to Jesus but without the nature of the Father's life will be disciplined.
They will be rebuked and told that He never allowed them. He never acknolwedged what they did because it was of the wrong nature.
It did not surpass the hypocritical facade acting of the religious scribes and Pharisees.

Some people will depart from the Lord forever.
Saved Christians may depart from His presence in the millennial kingdom temporarily.
I have pointed out many times on this forum, some who are saved forever will nonetheless "suffer loss."

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

For right now let me leave it there.
Also important is the Exodus 33:13 DOES show God was gracious to Moses.
But we should not reduce NT grace to merely mean God being gracious to someone.
NT grace is not only God's attitude over someone from the outside.
It is God dispensing Christ as the Spirit of life into them to be everything they need for His plan, kingdom, and eternal purpose.

In Act 15:1, there was a group of men who came down from Judea who were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised according to the custom of Moses in order to become saved. In Acts 15:5, they were opposed by believers from among the Pharisees who agreed that Gentiles should become circumcised and obey the Torah, but not in order to result in become saved.

I appreciate that there are two groups there. But both were trouble makers to the churching people.
And though we may say the group in verse 1 is distinct from the group in verse 15 the solution seems to be aimed at BOTH.
For both groups were pushing the keeping of the law's rituals in destraction to the grace of Christ.

James makes a not perfect but close decision that these legalists should stop troubling the disciples from the Gentiles.

Therefore I judge that we do not harass those from the Gentiles who are turning to God, (Acts 15:19)

I believe both those referred to in verse 1 as well as in verse 15 were troubling the believers.
I can't see how the decision of James addressed only those in one group. Both were troubling to the advancement of the gospel of grace.
The two groups reinforced each other. Both were harassers of the Gentile who received the Lord Jesus.

In Acts 15:6-7, Peter said that God made a choice among them that by his mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Gentiles repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of them hearing and believing the Gospel.

Notice that Jesus did not say the kingdom of the heavens had COME yet. But it has only drawn near.

The people sitting in darkness have seen a great light; and to those sitting in the region and shadow of death, to them light has risen.”
From that time Jesus began to proclaim and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near. (Matt. 4:16,17)

The great light they saw was Jesus Himself. He is the light of the world.
It is only when He uses Peter to open the doors of the church that men can enter into this kingdom.

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
I will give to you the keys [plural] of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in the heavens, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in the heavens. (Matt. 16:18,19)

At Pentacost Peter used a key to open the kingdom that the Jews could enter.
And at the house of Cornelius he used the other key to let the Gentiles in.

Of course to see Jesus and hear Him was a great light prompting men to repent.
To even see this Son of God caused men to change their thinking - to repent.

In Acts 15:8-9, Peter said that God who knows the heart bore witness to them by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did us. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Torah. In Acts 15:10-11, he ruled in favor of salvation by grace while considering salvation by circumcision to be a burden that no one could bear, so everything that Peter argued was in favor of the believers from among the Pharisees in Acts 15:5 and against the men from Judea in Acts 15:1. Furthermore, in Acts 15:11-21, they saw the inclusion of Gentiles as being part of the restoration of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy and expected Gentiles to continue to learn about how to obey the Torah by haring Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

We must consider other portions of the New Testament as well.
Whether we like it or not the Apostle Paul said the commandments of the law could not give life - period.

Galatians 3:21 - Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law.

No law of Moses was able to give divine life to man.
If the commandments of the law of Moses had been able to give life then righteousness would have indeed been by the law.

Do not rebel against this revelation.
Furthermore, though the law is spiritual, holy, and good, it was "weak through the flesh" - the fallen sin filled flesh of Adam's descendents.

For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, (Romans 8:3)

Of course the law itself Paul affirms is good, pure, spiritual, and righteous.
So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

Though the law of Moses was given that men may live it became something unto death because of the sin infested fallen body - the flesh.
Did then that which is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin did, that it might be shown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. (Rom. 7:13)

The Old Testament ministry then Paul calls the ministry of condemnation.
And the New Testament ministry he calls the more glorious ministry of righteousness.

For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory. (2 Cor. 3:9)

This ministry of righteousness is also the ministry of the Spirit.

Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (v.6)
How shall the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory? (v.8)

The NT ministry is about the Lord Spirit being inscribed into people. This is God dispensing His life and nature in Christ into man.
The Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17)

Though the commandments of the law of Moses could not give life the Lord Jesus BECAME a life giving Spirit.
So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

Walking in the same way that Christ walked in obedience to the Torah is synonymous with abiding in him,

Do not put the cart before the horse.
Walking by the Spirit, the life giving Spirit who is the Lord Himself, causes the just requirement of the law to be fulfilled in us.

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom. 8:4)

Do not place the law keeping cart before the cart drawing horse of the Lord Jesus.
This betrays a desire to exult the law to the level of Christ.
I fear that if you mention of Torah more than of Christ it tends to betray a desire to exalt the Torah even above the Lord Jesus.

This empowering grace is the Lord Jesus in resurrection living in the spirit of the believers.
The grace is with our spirit who are regenerated. The Lord is with our spirit who are regenerated.

The Lord Jesus is not just another fine example of a law keeping Israelite like Ezra, Hezekiah, or Nehemiah.
Do not try ot reduce the Son of God to just another example of a law keeping Jew to imitate.
No. We must receive Him into our being. We must be one with Him in death and in resurrection.

He concludes Adam being - "the last Adam".
He initiates a divinized new humanity of God-men, sons of God, by being the indwelling life giving Spirit which He became.

The new testament ministers must be competent to minister not the letter but the living Spirit into men.

[God] Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Cor. 3:6)

I must suspend further thoughts until latter.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

 

[oikonomia]

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit,

This should not be hard. Those who formerly condemned Jesus must now turn and obey the Gospel. Jesus is the resurrected Lord and Savior. By obeying to believe Peter's messaage they will receive the Spirit.

This One God has exalted to His right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him. (Acts 5:21,32)

The apostles received the Spirit because they obeyed to believe Jesus God had made Leader and Savior the Messiah of Israel.
Peter urges the audience there to do the same - obey the Gospel accepting Jesus as the exalted Leader and Savior for forgiveness of sins through His redeeming death.

however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to the Torah.

Why would not "works of law" in Gal. 3:1-2 refer to the Torah? In 3:23 Paul shows that the Law was the basic term for the relationship between man and God.

But before faith came we were guarded under law, being shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed. (v.23)
This Law served as a guardian or child conductor leading men to faith.
So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith. (v.24)
Now in the new covenant justification by faith has come and we are no longer under the Mosiac law as a child conductor.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor. (v.25)
Faith has now caused the regenerated receivers of Jesus to be "organically" related to the Father as SONS with His life.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (v.26)
They have been baptized into this Person and actually put Him on.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (v.27)

Back in verses 1 and 2 "works of law" refers to none other than works of law of this same child-conductor Mosiac law.

The Person the Galatians received is the same crucified Christ who in His form as the Spirit came into them.
Christ in His pneumatic form entered into them after His crucifxion and resurrection as the life giving Spirit.

O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed crucified?
This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith? (vs. 1,2)

The Galatians heard about Jesus being crucified. They received the Spirit by the hearing of faith.
They believed in Jesus and they received the Spirit. The Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). The last Adam [Christ]
became a life giving Spirit that can be received by believers. (1 Cor. 15:45)

The unique way to receive Jesus as the Spirit and continue to be SUPPLIED by Jesus as the Spirit is by the believing hearing of faith.
He therefore who bountifully supplies to you the Spirit and does works of power among you, does He do it out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?(v.5)

They had been bewitched by the Judiazers to think they could continue the Christian life by reverting back to law keeping by the power of the flesh.
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (v.3)

Of course "works of law" in verse 2 refers to the same law as in verse 23.
It refers to the works of the Torah which you seem to mention more times than Christ.
Are you wanting to exalt the Torah above Christ?

In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith,

And in Galatians 3:1,2 and verse 23 he makes a similar contrast.

so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11.

I feel that you are working too hard to rationalize exalting the Torah at or above the Son of God.
Critics of the Apostle Paul ( the Judiazers ) slandered him as being anti Moses. In a number of places Paul establishes the link and progression of how God used the law of Moses leading to faith in Christ. He takes away their ground to slander the new covenant as denigrading the law.

He says the law is good, spiritual, righteous, not dung.
He also says it served as a child-conductor to lead men to faith.
Paul leaves no ground for the slander that he denigrated the Law of Moses.
Yet he is still forceful to defend the gospel of grace against those who would bewitch the churches to return to Torah observance.

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, the way to be blesses is by relying on the Torah while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it

I don't know why you are inclined to spend so much time in Deutoronomy more than in the epistles of the NT like Colossians, Hebrews, Galatians, Philippians, and Ephesians. This seems consistent with you ever looking back towards the Old Testament to uplift the Torah above the Son of God. Paul said some desired to be teachers of the law. They troubled the new covenant believers. They were misaiming. They were not callibrated to the new testament. Their focus and aim was to exalt the Torah. In this they undercut new testament healthy teaching.

From which things some, having misaimed, have turned aside to vain talking,
Desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither the things that they say, nor concerning what they confidently affirm (1 Tim. 1:7)

Aren't you concerned that you could misaim? Look how much you mention the Torah. Look how frequently you talk more about the Torah than about Christ. I await to see a long post from you in which your focus is less on the Torah and more on the life giving Spirit - the indwelling Christ of grace.

, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as quoting from Deuteronomy 27-28 in order to support a point that is arguing against it by saying that relying on the Torah is the way to be cursed while not relying on it is the way to avoid being cursed.

What OTHER law could Paul be speaking of ??

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.” (Gal. 3:10)

He says "the book of the law" Soyeng. How can he NOT be meaning the Torah?

“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in THE BOOK OF THE LAW to do them.” (Gal. 3:10)

You should accept the progressive nature of the revelation of the Bible. The time CAME when it was exposed that though the law was meant to be a blessing, because of sin in the flesh, it was weak and worked out death in those ultimately needed a new covenant.

Look at Romans 7:7-11 in light of Galatians 3:10.

Rm. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions for sins, which acted through the law, operated in our members to bear fruit to death.
Rm 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter.
Rm 7:7 What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
Rm 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind; for without the law sin is dead.
Rm 7:9 And I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
Rm 7:10 And the commandment, which was unto life, this very commandment was found to me to be unto death.
Rm 7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Paul concludes his delimma with a cry that he needs to be delivered from the curse of the sin filled body of death. The law keeping of the book of the Torah has thoroughly exposed his need for another life. He needs Christ Himself as Spirit as his new life.

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin. (Rom. 7:24,25)

Whether we speak of curse or of wretched self condemnation, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the freeing element and answer.
There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death.
For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, (Rom 8:1-3)

 

[oikonomia]

Rather, not relying on the Torah is the way to be cursed, so the reason why all of those who rely on works of the law are under a curse is because they are doing that instead of relying on the Torah.

Yes, in Deuteronomy you have the blessings for obedience and the curses for disobedience.
No one can possibly deny that. But the revelation of the Bible is PROGRESSIVE and UNFOLDING.
Coming now to the new testament age we see emphatically that what was intended to be good for blessing eventually became a source
of wretched condemnation.

And as before I pointed out Paul called the whole old covenant the ministry of condemnation.
For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, . . . ( 2 Cor. 3:9a)

You cling to this ministry of condemnation and want to exalt its glory.
But the New Testament says it was a FADING glory and it is surpassed by the new covenant ministry of righteousness.

much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory.
For also that which has been glorified in this respect has not been glorified on account of the surpassing glory. (vs. 9b,10)

Are you in rebellion against the revelation given to the Apostle Paul?
He speaks of the fading glory being surpassed by the lasting glory. Why do you want him NOT to speak of the surpassing lasting glory of the ministry of the new covenant - the ministry of the Spirit? This ministry of the Spirit is the ministry of righteousness not of death and condemnation. The new covenant ministry is exalted by the apostles over the old covenant "ministry of death" regardless of the blessings enumerated in Deuteronomy.

Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, came about in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory which was being done away with, (2 Cor. 3:7)

Whether you like it or do not like it - this ministry promising blessings eventually is a ministry of fading not lasting glory.

Furthermore, in Galatians 3:11-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 saying that the one who obeys the Torah will live by it,

No commandment of the Torah was able to dispense the life of God INTO the people. If it had been able then righteousness would have been by keeping the Torah.

For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21b)

Who COULD give life? The Son of God came accomplishing eternal redemption and transfiguring Himself into the life giving Spirit to GIVE divine life into man. The last Adam became a LIFE GIVING Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45). He is the Spirit of life which frees from wretched condemnation.
In Christ was divine life. And He came that we might have divine life and have it abundantly. (John 1:4; 10:10)

so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Torah while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike the Torah. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore the Torah is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by trusting in what He has instructed, while to say that what God has instructed is not of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

I fear that your heart is with exalting the Torah above the Son of God. Here you mention the Torah three times but Christ is not mentioned.
In too many of your posts we read Torah, law, Torah, law very much. We do not see as much exaltation of Christ.

You muster all the energy you can find to aim at the dignity of the Torah and keeping of it.
Do you really think your tone is in harmony with the New Testament, especially he who authored some 13 of its 27 books - Paul?
I don't think you would have gotten along with the Apostle Paul.
I think you would have gotten along more with James, who, bless his heart, still BOASTED that there were thousands of believers of the new testament that were zealous to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 21:20-21)

But God used the godly saint to author one epistle in the NT canon. But He used Paul to author twelve or thirteen.
I believe Paul is the author of Hebrews.

At any rate, in this difficult historic transition between the Old Testament age and the New Testament age, James is significant. And his speaking is significant. But he does not carry as much a burden to explain the NT as the Apostle Paul. I love both the speech of James in the council in Jerusalem as well as the epistle of James. It both speakings have their righteful place in the NT canon of inspired teaching.

But the Apostle Paul was CLEARER. And the greater bulk of New Testament teaching is assigned to Paul.
I find it hard to shake the feeling that you do not like Paul's explanations very much.
You seem to turn some of them on their head to say things you wish to say about exaltation of the Torah over the Lord Jesus.
How about letting go of your aversion to Pauline exalting Christ OVER the law keeping? He pioneered wonderfully in living by the all-inclusive grace to show us the way.

 

[Soyeong]

I don't see where I referred verses 29-30 at all.

I spoke about Psalms 119:29-30, but you responded to what I said about those verses while neglecting to interact with what I said.

According to your attitude the Aposle John could have just as well said grace and truth came through Ezra, or Hezekiah.
A number of Old Testament people loved the law and taught the Israelites about it. We cannot reduce the ministry of the Son of God to merely being ANOTHER good example of Torah adherance. You reduce the Son of God to bringing grace and truth no different from how Nehemiah or Aaron "brought grace and truth."

The subtle tendency of trying to exalt the Torah to the same level of the Son of God is to reduce the need for the Son to come.

John writing his gospel is speaking from experience of years of Christ indwelling him. The grace upon grace he speaks of receiving is that indwelling power of life, Christ's divine life that has been dispensed into the believers. This is the grace which multiplies as the multiplication of living cells. And enjoyment upon enjoyment of another life, the life of the Spirit, is the meaning of John 1:16-17.

Of course God was "gracious" to the disciples to call them to follow Jesus. God can be gracious to many people without dispensing His divine life into them. So I have a problem with you wanting to reduce New Testament grace to simply mean God is gracious to someone. God was gracious to Abimelech in Genesis 20, not allowing him to sin against Abraham's wife. God was gracious to Hagar and Ishmael. God was gracious to Nebuchadnessor awakening him from his acting like an ox for seven years. God can be gracious to many people without dispensing His life into them.

Though imparting His Spirit of life into man certainly is a gracious act, not every instance of God being gracious involves this.
God can be gracious to someone on a merely outward way without flowing His Spirit into them as grace. So I would not use God graciously showing Moses all His goodness as He walked before Moses hidden in the cleft of a rock as a definition of New Testament grace.

This grace in the New Testament is not merely outward finding favor with God. It is a living Person who is joined in an "organic" blending with the spirit of man.

Ga 6:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.
Pp 4:23 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
2Ti 4:22 The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

The grace of Christ is Christ Himself living in the innermost spiritual being of the believer.
The Lord with his spirit is the Grace with him. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
The aged Apostle John writing his gospel spoke from the standpoint of years now of experiencing Christ as Another Comforter, the Spirit, living in his spirit. And he spoke for many others too.

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:16,17)

This was the grace of a Perfect Person in the form of the Spirit of life living in him.
This of course includes God being gracious to men. But it includes much more of the Triune God LIVING in men.

The Torah's God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, which means that he is the embodiment of the Torah because he expressed the nature of God through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it, so while he was much more than just another good example, he was nevertheless still an example that we are told to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22). So the sum of everything that Jesus spent his ministry doing was teaching others to also embody God's word, which is how grace and truth came through him and comes through everyone who teaches others to embody God's word. The view that we have of God is the same that we have of God's word and God's word made flesh, for example, God is trustworthy, therefore so is God's word and God's word made flesh, and this does not reduce the need for the embodiment of God's word to come to show us the way to embody God's word. God's graciousness is eternal, so it did not change between the OT and the NT, but rather God is gracious to us throughout the Bible by teaching us to embody His word, which is how the embodiment of God's word is dispensed into believers. Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 and Luke 10:25-28 that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so again that is the way that life is dispensed into believers.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life,

In John 1:16-17, it speaks about grace upon grace, so once example of grace coming through Moses is being added upon another example of grace coming through Jesus.

In Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is the exact image of God's nature, so he is also the embodiment of God's nature expressed through setting a sinless example of obedience to God's word, so God's word is His instructions for how to embody His nature and aspects of God's nature are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to embody God's word, and which is why God was gracious to Moses by teaching him aspects of His nature (Exodus 34:6-7), so God is not ever gracious to someone in merely an outward way without following His flowing His Spirit into them as grace.

Right now I don't want to a long post about Matthew 7:23. Suffice it at this time to say Matthew's gospel of the kingdom of the heavens is a warning that this grace is not a cheap thing. It is for His kingdom, His government, His administration on the earth. There are consequences for regarding His grace cheaply as only "outward favor" which has no effect on subjective living.

Also important is the Exodus 33:13 DOES show God was gracious to Moses.

It is God dispensing Christ as the Spirit of life into them to be everything they need for His plan, kingdom, and eternal purpose.

God's way is the way in which he expresses aspects of His nature, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19) and there are many verses that show that God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:3, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Psalms 107:3, Psalms 119:1-3, and many others, so God was gracious to Moses and to the Israelites by teaching them to walk in His way by giving them the gift of the Torah.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, and the citizens of the Kingdom are all those who have been taught to turn from their wickedness and obey the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom. So Jesus spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom is in accordance with him being sent as the fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5), so the citizens of the Kingdom are the children of Abraham. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied in accordance with the promise is not through having physical descendants, but through teaching people to do the same works as him through spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.

I appreciate that there are two groups there. But both were trouble makers to the churching people.
And though we may say the group in verse 1 is distinct from the group in verse 15 the solution seems to be aimed at BOTH.
For both groups were pushing the keeping of the law's rituals in destraction to the grace of Christ.

James makes a not perfect but close decision that these legalists should stop troubling the disciples from the Gentiles.

In Acts 15:1, they wanted Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, and in Acts 15:5, they wanted Gentiles to become circumcised and obey the Law of Moses, but did not add that it was in order to become saved, so they disagreed about the means of become saved. In Acts 15:10-11, the Jerusalem Council settled the disagreement between the two groups by ruling that the means of salvation is by grace, which was in favor of those in Acts 15:5, so no one there took the position that Gentiles shouldn't follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah. Christ was gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah, so teaching Gentiles to obey it does not distract from the grace of Christ, but just the opposite. If God is a legalist for commanding His people to obey the Torah and Jesus was a legalist for spending his ministry teaching it, then we should all be legalists.

There is no point in someone wanting to join a new religion while wanting nothing to do with learning how to practice it. The issue in Acts 15:19-21 is that new believers who were unfamiliar with the Torah would have been overwhelmed by people trying to teach them what to do, so they wanted to get on the same page about which things should be taught to Gentiles right away and which things can be taught over time as they continue to hear Moses taught each Sabbath in the synagogues. We can't receive the Lord Jesus by rejecting what he taught, so the problem with those in Acts 15:1 and 15:5 was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow what Jesus taught, but rather the issue that they were discussing was the means of salvation by grace or by circumcision.

Notice that Jesus did not say the kingdom of the heavens had COME yet. But it has only drawn near.

At Pentacost Peter used a key to open the kingdom that the Jews could enter.
And at the house of Cornelius he used the other key to let the Gentiles in.

Revelation 3:20 Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me.

Saying that the Kingdom of God is at hand is essentially saying that the King is standing at the and knocking and that he is poised to enter and eat with those who hear his voice and let him in. The Kingdom of God is immediately available to all those who repent and return to obedience to the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom. Likewise, in Acts 2:38, Peter called for his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

God] Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Cor. 3:6)

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Torah, and in Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the Torah leads to life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! There are other many verses that say similar things, so 2 Corinthians 3:6 needs to be understood in a manner that is in accordance with these to her verses and not in a way that contradicts them. If obeying the letter refer to correctly doing what God has instructed and that leads to death, then that would mean that God is misleading us and should not be trusted, but the reality is that God can be trusted to give good gifts that lead to life.

We must consider other portions of the New Testament as well.
Whether we like it or not the Apostle Paul said the commandments of the law could not give life - period.

Galatians 3:21 - Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law.

In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, the Torah is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Romans 2:6-7, eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so the content of God's gift of eternal life is living in obedience to the Mosaic Law. So it is abundantly clear that the Mosaic Law is the way to enter eternal life, though our obedience to it does not result in having eternal life or righteousness as though they were earned as a wage, but rather obedience to it means that we have faith and it is by that faith that we have eternal life and righteousness.

Furthermore, though the law is spiritual, holy, and good, it was "weak through the flesh" - the fallen sin filled flesh of Adam's descendents.

For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, (Romans 8:3)

Of course the law itself Paul affirms is good, pure, spiritual, and righteous.
So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

Though the law of Moses was given that men may live it became something unto death because of the sin infested fallen body - the flesh.
Did then that which is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin did, that it might be shown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. (Rom. 7:13)

In Romans 7, Paul spoke about the Law of God as being the good that he wanted to do, but he contrasted that with the law of sin that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to. For example, in Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrast that with the law of sin that held him captive, he said that he served the Law of God with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that he served with his flesh, and he contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death. So the law of sin was hindering us from embodying the Law of God, which is why God sent Jesus to free us from the law of sin so that we could be free to embody the Law of God and meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). Furthermore, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Torah is good and that it was not that which is good that brought death to him, which is the opposite of you saying that it was given that men by live it became something unto death.

The Old Testament ministry then Paul calls the ministry of condemnation.
And the New Testament ministry he calls the more glorious ministry of righteousness.

According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Torah is a ministry of life for those who choose to obey it and a ministry of death for those who refuse to obey it, so the fact that it is a ministry if death for those who refuse to obey it is not a very good reason to refuse to obey it. There was a way that led to death before the law was given, so the Torah just teaches us how to avoid that way and choose the way that leads to life. It it like if I warned someone that they are doing something dangerous that could lead to their death, then I would not be the source of the danger and I would not be threatening them, but rather I would be helping them find the way that leads to life.

Do not put the cart before the horse.
Walking by the Spirit, the life giving Spirit who is the Lord Himself, causes the just requirement of the law to be fulfilled in us.

Do not place the law keeping cart before the cart drawing horse the Lord Jesus.
This betrays a desire to exult the law to the level of Christ.
I fear that if you mention of Torah more than of Christ it tends to betray a desire to exalt the Torah even above the Lord Jesus.

Us embodying God's word is the way to abide in the one who is the embodiment of God's word, so this is not placing one before the other, but rather that is what it means to abide in him. Me speaking about us embodying God's word is speaking about the one who is the embodiment of God's word, not exalting God's word above him.

 

[Soyeong]

This should not be hard. Those who formerly condemned Jesus must now turn and obey the Gospel. Jesus is the resurrected Lord and Savior. By obeying to believe Peter's messaage they will receive the Spirit.

This One God has exalted to His right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him. (Acts 5:21,32)

The apostles received the Spirit because they obeyed to believe Jesus God had made Leader and Savior the Messiah of Israel.
Peter urges the audience there to do the same - obey the Gospel accepting Jesus as the exalted Leader and Savior for forgiveness of sins through His redeeming death.

Why would not "works of law" in Gal. 3:1-2 refer to the Torah? In 3:23 Paul shows that the Law was the basic term for the relationship between man and God.

But before faith came we were guarded under law, being shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed. (v.23)
This Law served as a guardian or child conductor leading men to faith.
So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith. (v.24)
Now in the new covenant justification by faith has come and we are no longer under the Mosiac law as a child conductor.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor. (v.25)
Faith has now caused the regenerated receivers of Jesus to be "organically" related to the Father as SONS with His life.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (v.26)
They have been baptized into this Person and actually put Him on.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (v.27)

Back in verses 1 and 2 "works of law" refers to none other than works of law of this same child-conductor Mosiac law.

The Person the Galatians received is the same crucified Christ who in His form as the Spirit came into them.
Christ in His pneumatic form entered into them after His crucifxion and resurrection as the life giving Spirit.

O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed crucified?
This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith? (vs. 1,2)

The Galatians heard about Jesus being crucified. They received the Spirit by the hearing of faith.
They believed in Jesus and they received the Spirit. The Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). The last Adam [Christ]
became a life giving Spirit that can be received by believers. (1 Cor. 15:45)

The unique way to receive Jesus as the Spirit and continue to be SUPPLIED by Jesus as the Spirit is by the believing hearing of faith.
He therefore who bountifully supplies to you the Spirit and does works of power among you, does He do it out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?(v.5)

They had been bewitched by the Judiazers to think they could continue the Christian life by reverting back to law keeping by the power of the flesh.
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (v.3)

Of course "works of law" in verse 2 refers to the same law as in verse 23.
It refers to the works of the Torah which you seem to mention more times than Christ.
Are you wanting to exalt the Torah above Christ?

And in Galatians 3:1,2 and verse 23 he makes a similar contrast.

I feel that you are working too hard to rationalize exalting the Torah at or above the Son of God.
Critics of the Apostle Paul ( the Judiazers ) slandered him as being anti Moses. In a number of places Paul establishes the link and progression of how God used the law of Moses leading to faith in Christ. He takes away their ground to slander the new covenant as denigrading the law.

He says the law is good, spiritual, righteous, not dung.
He also says it served as a child-conductor to lead men to faith.
Paul leaves no ground for the slander that he denigrated the Law of Moses.
Yet he is still forceful to defend the gospel of grace against those who would bewitch the churches to return to Torah observance.

I don't know why you are inclined to spend so much time in Deutoronomy more than in the epistles of the NT like Colossians, Hebrews, Galatians, Philippians, and Ephesians. This seems consistent with you ever looking back towards the Old Testament to uplift the Torah above the Son of God. Paul said some desired to be teachers of the law. They troubled the new covenant believers. They were misaiming. They were not callibrated to the new testament. Their focus and aim was to exalt the Torah. In this they undercut new testament healthy teaching.

From which things some, having misaimed, have turned aside to vain talking,
Desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither the things that they say, nor concerning what they confidently affirm (1 Tim. 1:7)

Aren't you concerned that you could misaim? Look how much you mention the Torah. Look how frequently you talk more about the Torah than about Christ. I await to see a long post from you in which your focus is less on the Torah and more on the life giving Spirit - the indwelling Christ of grace.

What OTHER law could Paul be speaking of ??

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.” (Gal. 3:10)

He says "the book of the law" Soyeng. How can he NOT be meaning the Torah?

“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in THE BOOK OF THE LAW to do them.” (Gal. 3:10)

You should accept the progressive nature of the revelation of the Bible. The time CAME when it was exposed that though the law was meant to be a blessing, because of sin in the flesh, it was weak and worked out death in those ultimately needed a new covenant.

Again, if obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit and obeying works of the law is not part of the way to receive the Spirit, then "works of the law" can't refer to obedience to God, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as works of the law that are not of faith.

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example, so Galatians should not be interpreted as speaking against following Christ. The Torah leads us to have faith in Jesus because it was given in order to teach us how to do that, but it was not given to lead us to Jesus so that we could then reject everything that he taught and go back to living in sin. The problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow what Christ taught, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. In the 1st century there was a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences that were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become justified, so Paul used "works of the law" to refer to this body of law, which is also supported by how the phrase is used in Qumran Text 4QMMT.

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God even within the same verse, such works of the law and the law of sin, such as in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, so there is no rule that if Paul referred to the Law of God in Galatians 3:23, then that means that he must also be referring to it in Galatians 3:1-2. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul contrasted works of the law with the Book of the Law, so yes, the Book of the Law does refer to the Torah while works of the law does not.

I have said nothing to exalt God's word over God's word made flesh. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faithfulness by putting it on his heart, so that is the Gospel of grace, not contrary to it. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so promoting obedience to it is not misaiming, but rather doing anything other than promoting obedience to it is misaiming. It is bizarre to interpret the NT as speaking against obeying what God has commanded as if its authors were not servants of God. The Torah is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh, so speaking about the Torah is speaking about Christ.

About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT and the NT authors did this thousands of times in order to support what they were saying and to show that they hadn't depart from it, so they certainly saw the OT as still being authoritative, and they had no problem with spending a lot of time in it. For example, Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, so he affirmed its authority. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against the OT to see if what he said was true, so according to that precedent the OT is the standard by which we should accept that what is written in the NT is true. God does make any mistakes, so everything that the Bible progressively reveals is in accordance with what has already been revealed is in accordance with what has already been revealed, and again disagreement with what has already been revealed is the standard by which it should be rejected. Jesus and Paul were teachers of the law, so 1 Timothy 1:7 is not speaking against all teachers of the law, just the ones who didn't understand the things that they were saying.

Look at Romans 7:7-11 in light of Galatians 3:10.

Rm. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions for sins, which acted through the law, operated in our members to bear fruit to death.
Rm 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter.
Rm 7:7 What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
Rm 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind; for without the law sin is dead.
Rm 7:9 And I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
Rm 7:10 And the commandment, which was unto life, this very commandment was found to me to be unto death.
Rm 7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Paul concludes his delimma with a cry that he needs to be delivered from the curse of the sin filled body of death. The law keeping of the book of the Torah has thoroughly exposed his need for another life. He needs Christ Himself as Spirit as his new life.

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin. (Rom. 7:24,25)

Whether we speak of curse or of wretched self condemnation, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the freeing element and answer.
There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death.
For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, (Rom 8:1-3)

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, so verses that refer to the Law of God should make sense for it to be something that Paul delighted in doing. For example, Romans 7:5 can't be referring to the Law of God because it would be absurd to think that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. Likewise, Romans 7:6 speaks about being release from a law that held him captive and there is no reason why Paul would want or need to be released from a law that he delighted in obeying, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. A law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, so Romans 7:5 can't be referring to the same law as Romans 7:7, which says that the Law of God is to sinful, but is how we know what sin is. We need to be released from captivity to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.

Are you in rebellion against the revelation given to the Apostle Paul?

No, I fully accept the truth of what Paul said, I just interpret what he said as through he were a servant of God held the same view of the Torah as expressed in the Psalms. The view that we have of the law matches our view of the Law given, so God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), and a law that is holy, righteous, and good can't come from a God who is not holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Torah, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, which certainly matched his view of the Lawgiver, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Torah, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:12), and we will also interpret the NT as thought they also delighted in obeying it. For example, according to Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Torah of the Lord and who mediate on it day and night, so we can't believe in the truth of these words while not allowing the to shape our view of the Torah.

 

[oikonomia]

I spoke about Psalms 119:29-30, but you responded to what I said about those verses while neglecting to interact with what I said.

I have though interacted plenty with plenty of what you have argued. Like myself you tend to be verbose.
Some response to your many points I will offer for the sake of those who are curious how one might respond.

The Torah's God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, which means that he is the embodiment of the Torah because he expressed the nature of God through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it,

Certainly we share that Christ expresses God - No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son has declared Him.

so while he was much more than just another good example, he was nevertheless still an example that we are told to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Sure. But you love to exalt the Torah, the law, the Old Testament at the level of or above the Son of God. It seems in your view the Son of God only serves us for you to kindle affection for the Torah.

So the sum of everything that Jesus spent his ministry doing was teaching others to also embody God's word, which is how grace and truth came through him and comes through everyone who teaches others to embody God's word.

In John 14 - 17 He makes abundantly clear that it is He Himself that must live in His lovers. He comes and with Him His Father comes.
He and His Father can come only because the Spirit contains them both and imparts this Triune God into man.

The view that we have of God is the same that we have of God's word

This is not necesarily true. Jesus rebuked some religionists because they searched the Scriptures but would not come to Him.

You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that testify concerning Me.
Yet you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (John 5:39,40)

The same error is entirely possible today. Men can search the words of the Scripture (the word of God) and refuse to come to the Lord Jesus.
So we need to be warned. When we come to the Bible we must come also to touch the presence of the Lord Jesus.

and God's word made flesh, for example, God is trustworthy, therefore so is God's word and God's word made flesh, and this does not reduce the need for the embodiment of God's word to come to show us the way to embody God's word.

As mentioned, He says His lovers He and His Father as the divine "We" will come to and make an abode with them. As they keep His word which He constantly is speaking within us, He more will settle down in that abode filling all of its rooms of our hearts.

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 4:23)

God's graciousness is eternal, so it did not change between the OT and the NT,

The Old Testament saints had His profitable word.
The New Testament believers have God Himself come to live in them.
Basically that is a great difference.

Of all the patriarchs, Jesus said no one was greater than John the Baptist. But as great as John the Baptist was whoever was LEAST in the kingdom of the heavens was greater than he. Right here - Matthew 11:11:

Truly I say to you, Among those born of women there has not arisen one greater than John the Baptist, yet he who is least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.

Now what makes a human being "great"? The great One is Jesus the Son of God. All other humans are great only in the degree they are close to the Son of God. We are only "great" because of our relationship to the great One, Christ. The closer to Christ the greater we are.

Of all men born of women no one was closer to Christ then His forerunner John the Bapstist.
Yet those in the church are closer because Christ has come to live IN them.
So the least in the kingdom in the heavens has a closer relationship with the Great One than John the Bapstist.

I must skip some.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life,

I say Amen to this. Do you have a similar enthusiam for the triune God coming Himself to make an abode within His lovers ?

In John 1:16-17, it speaks about grace upon grace, so once example of grace coming through Moses is being added upon another example of grace coming through Jesus.

I did respond to this above. The more you talk about Jesus the EXAMPLE the more I will talk about Jesus the indwelling One living in His believers.

In Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is the exact image of God's nature, so he is also the embodiment of God's nature expressed through setting a sinless example of obedience to God's word, so God's word is His instructions for how to embody His nature and aspects of God's nature are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to embody God's word, and which is why God was gracious to Moses by teaching him aspects of His nature (Exodus 34:6-7), so God is not ever gracious to someone in merely an outward way without following His flowing His Spirit into them as grace.

 

[oikonomia]

God can be gracious to anyone He wishes to be. He is gracious by letting His sun rise on the evil as well as the good. He sends His rain graciously upon the just as well as the unjust. Jesus made that point to us about His gracious Father.

So that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, because He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the just and the unjust. (Matt. 5:45)

All grace is surely graciousness of God. All God being gracious is not imparting His life to man as the grace of Christ.

God's way is the way in which he expresses aspects of His nature, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19) and there are many verses that show that God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:3, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Psalms 107:3, Psalms 119:1-3, and many others, so God was gracious to Moses and to the Israelites by teaching them to walk in His way by giving them the gift of the Torah.

God is gracious though to some who will not regard this mercy. It is trying to lead them to repentance.
His graciousness is taken for granted by many and they do not receive Him.

Romans 2:4-6 -
Or do you despise the riches of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, not knowing that God’s kindness is leading you to repentance? But, according to your hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, Who will render to each according to his works:

These are recipients of His gracious mercy. But they refuse to repent, believe, and be saved.
Though God was gracious to them to lead them to the gospel of grace, they would not come to the Christ.

I skip some more which I previously wrote some response to.

So Jesus spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom is in accordance with him being sent as the fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5), so the citizens of the Kingdom are the children of Abraham.

Okay. We thank Him for that.

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied in accordance with the promise is not through having physical descendants, but through teaching people to do the same works as him through spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Even more to the point I think is that receiving Him that we might be sons of God in life makes us Abraham's heirs.

Galatians 3:25-27, 29
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ . . .
And if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise.

Only those who have the Spirit of Christ are of Christ.

Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. (Rom. 8:9c)

There is no point in someone wanting to join a new religion while wanting nothing to do with learning how to practice it.

I think you should see that Christ is not "a new religion." Christ is a living Person.
I would encourage you not to think of Jesus CHrist as "a new religion".

In my vocabulary even the word "Christianity" is not that positive. The Christ IS. The "anity" may mean lots of things which have little to do with the living Person of Christ.

 

[oikonomia]

By the way, the word of Christ in John 14:23 is so much more than just the things one finds written in the Hebrew Bible.
It is more than the things written in the New Testament.
His word may be so intimate, so personal, so particular and tailored to our deepest parts, it is hard to even write or utter.
His word that we are to keep is touching our being on a microsopic level of motive, intention, inclination.

His word to us may be on so minute matters of how we THINK, how we sit, how we talk, how we imagine, how we remember, our tone of voice, our look in the eyes, the speed with which we move our hand, etc. etc. His word may be so on a quantom level of life that it is impossible to write down exactly what His word to us is.

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23)

This instant word of the Christ living in us may be so expressly personal and intimate that human utterance cannot utter it in human words.
This along with the word of Scripture is what the lover of Jesus must keep expressing his love for the Lord.

Do you agree?

This extememly intimate way of God speaking to us is called also the teaching of the anointing in First John.
To follow the teaching of the anointing leads to greater life and peace.

This is the mind set on the spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is.
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:6)

Those who are Christians (let alone unbelievers) who set their mind on the flesh (the old fallen nature) CANNOT please God.
And those who do not learn by habit to set the mind on the mingled spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is are not subject to the law of God.

Romans 8:7,8 -
Because the mind set on the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither can it be.
And those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

It would not matter how much one stives in his natural being to obey commandments read in the Torah.
The mind set on the evil doing flesh is death.
The mind set on the religious flesh is also death.
The mind set on the old nature and not on the mingled spirit is death and cannot please God.

Such a mind not set on the regenerated spirit is at emnity with God.
A Torah keeping mind which will not be set on the spirit where the living Spirit of Jesus is, is enmity against God.

So we need to ask the Lord's mercy - "Lord Jesus, ever and always help me to set my mind on the Spirit in my spirit. There Lord Jesus is life and peace. And there I can be led by the Spirit."

The new testament ministry is the ministry of the living Person of the Spirit.
The new testament minister (all believers without exception) must release thier spirit and touch the spirit of others.
Thy new testament ministers must ever lead people to touch their spirit where the Lord is one with thier spirit.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

Paul served God in his spirit excusively.
Romans 1:9a - For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Son,

The final word written by this new testament minister was that the Lord Jesus was with our spirit. And THERE the grace was.
Pauls' final word written in the New Testament - 2 Tim. 4:22 -
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

Ie. Whatever happens Timothy, never forget, never cease to remember - the Lord Jesus Christ is with your spirit. There the empowering grace of Christ lives.

We can't receive the Lord Jesus by rejecting what he taught, so the problem with those in Acts 15:1 and 15:5 was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow what Jesus taught, but rather the issue that they were discussing was the means of salvation by grace or by circumcision.

The problem was some desired to exalt the Torah and the Old Covenant above the Son of God.

The old covenant ministry Paul says was FADING in glory. Some did not like this and did not WANT the old covenant ministery to be of a FADING glory. But it was and is compared to the new covenant ministry.

I would encourage you Soyeng to read this with all of your heart and even aloud.


Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, came about in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory which was being done away with,

How shall the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory?
For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory.
For also that which has been glorified in this respect has not been glorified on account of the surpassing glory.
For if that which was being done away with was through glory, much more that which remains is in glory. (2 Cor. 3:8-11)

The old testament ministry is a fading glory. Do you resent that God has caused the old testmant ministry to FADE in glory?
You need to solve that contraversy with God.

The new testament ministry of the Spirit abounds in a lasting and surpassing glory.
We ought not rebel against this.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts,

The new covenant involves God putting GOD Himself into our being. Do you believe this?
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23 yet again)

The more you talk about "the Torah, the Torah, the Torah" the more I will point out that God Himself comes to live in the disciples of Jesus.

The more you talk about "Keep the Law, do the Law, follow the Law" the more I will point that God puts Himself into His redeemed and His redeemed into Him.

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20)

 

[oikonomia]

in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Torah,

The new covenant absolutely is the Christ Himself living in us.

Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5)

and in Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the Torah leads to life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

If a law had been given that had been able to give life then righteousness would have been by the Law.
Galatians 3:21c - For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law.

So in the new covenant Christ the Righteous One became a life giving Spirit.
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b)

We must be brought to the point where we can say with Paul it is no longer we who live but Christ who lives in us.
He not only lives in us. He must be our life as we live Christ. Or Christ Himself lives in our living.

I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Gal 2:20)

Paul learned well this secret. Paul did not nullify the indwelling grace of God. He did not circumvent its benefit.
He allowed this grace the full range of influence over his entire being.

I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing. (v. 21)