PWas Eden and all that was created in it created perfect?

[Assyrian]

He brings animals to young lions and ravens for food.

 

[metherion]

One of the problem in using the word perfect (or good as in Gen 1:10) is that there is no definition of it.

Yes, that a good, solid, uniformly accepted definition of perfect is rather hard to come by, I definitely agree with that.

However, I would personally not include ‘a lack of death’ in perfection.

If God makes a thing, who are we to say that it is not perfect? I was arguing that the existence of death is a sign of imperfection. Because in the sinless Garden, what could be bad except death? It is hard to argue that death is part of the good, since death means a separation from God.

Yes, but on the other hand, one must ALSO remember that God created all the angels, including the Angel of Death, an Angel SPECIFICALLY tasked to deal it out. Who are we to say that angel and its task are not perfect?
Furthermore, if God made creatures ABLE to die, who are we to say THAT is not perfect?


I would also argue that before sin, death might NOT have meant separation from God. After all, many people believe animals don’t have souls / won’t be in Heaven, et cetera. So the animals would not be separated, because there would be nothing to separate. Also, when God created EVERYTHING, God created Heaven too, no? And since God can be everywhere at once (after all, He’s GOD), He could be in Heaven AND on Earth at the same time. And since without sin, people would have nowhere to go except Heaven, there would be no separation from God.

Hell is the only REAL separation from God, and without sin, there would be no Hell, correct?

Also, without death, there would be no renewal, no new generations after space on the face of the earth ran out, no eating, and huge gooey piles of sperm, fecal bacteria, etc everywhere. And a distinct lack of odors pleasing to the Lord (again, as Numbers 29:2), and I would make an argument that a world lacking things that please the Lord would be imperfect.

Remind you that the Garden is the only place except the Heaven, where God has personally been there.

I don’t think this is correct. Even if you only count God the Father and not God the Son or God the Holy Spirit (as God the Son was all over Judea, and God the Holy Spirit in a great many places as well), God the Father came to Earth in front of Moses at least twice, once as a burning bush and once (I’m TERRIBLE with chapter and verse, so if someone could find what I’m talking about that would be awesome) where if I remember correctly, God came down and Moses had to hide his face until only God’s backside was visible, and again when He wrestled (I think it was) Jacob. Again, I’m TERRIBLE with chapter and verse, so if I’m misremembering these things happening of have them happening to the wrong people, please forgive me.

I don't think God would say that animals kill each other in the Garden is "good".

But, as you said earlier, there is no concrete definition of ‘very good’ or ‘perfect’. I personally don’t think that God would say a world where people and animals stagnate, can’t eat, can’t reproduce after space runs out, etc would be ‘very good’.

God brings animals to Adam for names. But the Bible does not say that animals also live in the Garden.

But neither does it say they were absent from the Garden. And, as you say, they would have to be brought into the Garden to be named, and either be allowed to pass freely in and out of the Garden or A&E must have been allowed out. Else how could the serpent speak to Eve, if animals could not enter? And if A&E could leave, and death was outside the Garden, then A&E COULD have died before sin. So it has to be all or nothing.

(O, and by the way, serpents don’t eat dust as God curses them to in Genesis 3.)

Metherion

 

[juvenissun]

He brings animals to young lions and ravens for food.

Hi, Assyrian. How are you?
What is this puzzle (or joke?) about this time? I don't think I could remember Bible verses as many as you do.

 

[juvenissun]

Yes, that a good, solid, uniformly accepted definition of perfect is rather hard to come by, I definitely agree with that.

However, I would personally not include ‘a lack of death’ in perfection.



Yes, but on the other hand, one must ALSO remember that God created all the angels, including the Angel of Death, an Angel SPECIFICALLY tasked to deal it out. Who are we to say that angel and its task are not perfect?
Furthermore, if God made creatures ABLE to die, who are we to say THAT is not perfect?

I am trying to confine the range of discussion. But you seems to have a habit of expanding it. So, sorry that I will only respond to the first two paragraphs.

I don't think God creates death. Death, by definition, is a separation from God. So, death does not have to be created. The only thing needed for the existence of death is a free will. It is fine for us to say that God creates free will. Then whatever decision made by the being who possessed the free will is not related to God. If they choose to go away from God, then they are "dead".

A critical symptom of death is the physical death. Our physical death does not mean the end of our life. But animal's death does mean that, the real end of a life. I don't think it could be evaluated as a good thing by any standard. So, if the Garden is good, then animals should not die in the Garden. Inside the Garden, Adam and Eve do not see death. But when they walked out of the Garden, they do see the physical death of animals. If I were Adam, I would like to walk back to the Garden and stay in there as long as I could. And I think that was exactly what Adam and Eve did.

One critical function of the Garden is not to prevent good thing in the Garden to come out, but to prevent bad thing outside the Garden to go in.

 

[gluadys]

One critical function of the Garden is not to prevent good thing in the Garden to come out, but to prevent bad thing outside the Garden to go in.

But no guard was put on the garden until after the fall, and that was to keep Adam & Eve out. Nothing says the animals were to be kept out either before or after the fall.


I disagree with you about there being no animals in heaven. There will be all sorts of plants and animals, for the new creation would be less perfect than the old if it does not include all the good things that were part of the original creation. A heaven inhabited by only angels and humans would be a poor substitute for this world overflowing with all sorts of living creatures. Besides, God loves animals too. After all, God made them and cares for them.

 

[Assyrian]

Hi, Assyrian. How are you?
What is this puzzle (or joke?) about this time? I don't think I could remember Bible verses as many as you do.

The page split between your previous post and mine.

Sorry that I was bogged down by some unworthy arguments in the other thread.

One of the problem in using the word perfect (or good as in Gen 1:10) is that there is no definition of it. If God makes a thing, who are we to say that it is not perfect? I was arguing that the existence of death is a sign of imperfection. Because in the sinless Garden, what could be bad except death? It is hard to argue that death is part of the good, since death means a separation from God.

Remind you that the Garden is the only place except the Heaven, where God has personally been there. I don't think God would say that animals kill each other in the Garden is "good". God brings animals to Adam for names. But the Bible does not say that animals also live in the Garden.

He brings animals to young lions and ravens for food.

I was referring to the creation accounts in Job 38 and Psalm 104 which describe God providing prey for young lions and ravens when they cry out to him for food. So do you think God had a do not feed the predators sign in the garden because he went there personally, while outside he was quite happy to feed other animals to hungry carnivores?

 

[metherion]

I don't think God creates death. Death, by definition, is a separation from God. So, death does not have to be created. The only thing needed for the existence of death is a free will.

Then we are apparently laboring under different definitions of ‘death’. After all, humans can die and go to Heaven and not be separated from God. I’ve been using death to mean physical death this whole time. And animals that don’t have the capacity for moral decisions don’t have free will as they don’t have a will to BE free, yet they can still die. I mean, according to your definition, animals don't actually die.

It is fine for us to say that God creates free will. Then whatever decision made by the being who possessed the free will is not related to God. If they choose to go away from God, then they are "dead".

But they are still breathing, eating, heart pumping, walking around, maintaining homeostasis, etc.

A critical symptom of death is the physical death. Our physical death does not mean the end of our life. But animal's death does mean that, the real end of a life. I don't think it could be evaluated as a good thing by any standard. So, if the Garden is good, then animals should not die in the Garden.

But now apply that EXACT same logic to plants. Yet you said earlier on in this thread you did not think plants were actually alive from God’s point of view, but with no evidence. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Also, one of the main themes of Christianity runs rather counter to your idea. We are born separated from God in our sins, we can reconnect with God while we are alive, and by the grace of God we can go to Heaven and be reunited with Him AFTER WE DIE. There is only one person who explicitly was reunited with God while still alive, Elijah. (some may say Enoch, but ‘walked with God’ is quite a vague term, and still, one vs. all humans who ever lived or two versus all who ever lived, it’s still AWFULLY small)Death is not the separation from God, SIN is. You can be physically alive and separated from God, and you can be physically dead and united with Him.

Inside the Garden, Adam and Eve do not see death. But when they walked out of the Garden, they do see the physical death of animals. If I were Adam, I would like to walk back to the Garden and stay in there as long as I could. And I think that was exactly what Adam and Eve did.

One critical function of the Garden is not to prevent good thing in the Garden to come out, but to prevent bad thing outside the Garden to go in.

And is there any Biblical support for that? And if there were physical death of animals OUTSIDE the garden, would it not still mean there was death before the Fall? Is there ever any evidence or Biblical support they left the Garden before being driven out? Or is this entire thing just ad hoc?

Metherion

 

[juvenissun]

Then we are apparently laboring under different definitions of ‘death’. After all, humans can die and go to Heaven and not be separated from God. I’ve been using death to mean physical death this whole time. And animals that don’t have the capacity for moral decisions don’t have free will as they don’t have a will to BE free, yet they can still die. I mean, according to your definition, animals don't actually die.


But they are still breathing, eating, heart pumping, walking around, maintaining homeostasis, etc.



But now apply that EXACT same logic to plants. Yet you said earlier on in this thread you did not think plants were actually alive from God’s point of view, but with no evidence. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Also, one of the main themes of Christianity runs rather counter to your idea. We are born separated from God in our sins, we can reconnect with God while we are alive, and by the grace of God we can go to Heaven and be reunited with Him AFTER WE DIE. There is only one person who explicitly was reunited with God while still alive, Elijah. (some may say Enoch, but ‘walked with God’ is quite a vague term, and still, one vs. all humans who ever lived or two versus all who ever lived, it’s still AWFULLY small)Death is not the separation from God, SIN is. You can be physically alive and separated from God, and you can be physically dead and united with Him.




And is there any Biblical support for that? And if there were physical death of animals OUTSIDE the garden, would it not still mean there was death before the Fall? Is there ever any evidence or Biblical support they left the Garden before being driven out? Or is this entire thing just ad hoc?

Metherion

Again, you have more questions than I could handle. So I pick one. This does not say that other questions are not good. In fact, I think all of them are very good questions.

Evidence? It is clear that the Garden has a boundary. And the Garden is guarded by angels. An implication here is that angels, good or not good (but still obedient), can go in and out the Garden freely. Provided that I don't think Adam and Eve should be confined to the area of the Garden.

According the system I understand, there was death before the creation of Adam.

 

[juvenissun]

The page split between your previous post and mine.

I was referring to the creation accounts in Job 38 and Psalm 104 which describe God providing prey for young lions and ravens when they cry out to him for food. So do you think God had a do not feed the predators sign in the garden because he went there personally, while outside he was quite happy to feed other animals to hungry carnivores?

Excellent point. Thanks. Psams 104 is too wonderful.

I can see one big problem for all lives is that they all need to eat. God creates lives, then God needs to feed them. So, what says in Psalms and in Jobs make perfect sense. Lions and Ravens did not ask Adam to give them food (Adam supposed to be the manager of the Garden).

Vegetation for food is good, since plants are not alive to God. But why does God tell Noah (but not Adam) that they are allowed to eat meat (as they eat vegetables) only AFTER the Flood? How is the Flood related to this matter?

 

[Assyrian]

Excellent point. Thanks. Psams 104 is too wonderful.

I can see one big problem for all lives is that they all need to eat. God creates lives, then God needs to feed them. So, what says in Psalms and in Jobs make perfect sense. Lions and Ravens did not ask Adam to give them food (Adam supposed to be the manager of the Garden).

Vegetation for food is good, since plants are not alive to God. But why does God tell Noah (but not Adam) that they are allowed to eat meat (as they eat vegetables) only AFTER the Flood? How is the Flood related to this matter?

Or is God saying he has already, in the past, given them every moving thing as food, only now he is commanding them not to eat blood?
Gen 9:3 (YLT) Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole; 4 only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat. I am no expert in Hebrew verbs, but as far as i understand 'I have given' is in the perfect tense, completed action in the past, while 'you do not eat' or 'you shall not eat' is in the imperfect tense, incomplete, ongoing and future.

 

[juvenissun]

Or is God saying he has already, in the past, given them every moving thing as food, only now he is commanding them not to eat blood?
Gen 9:3 (YLT) Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole; 4 only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat. I am no expert in Hebrew verbs, but as far as i understand 'I have given' is in the perfect tense, completed action in the past, while 'you do not eat' or 'you shall not eat' is in the imperfect tense, incomplete, ongoing and future.

Exactly. Would it then confirm that God only let people eat green herbs before the Flood?

We can not eat meat without also taking in some blood. If cooked meat (with blood in it) is acceptable, then cooked blood would also be fine. So, if pre-Flood people cooked their meat, they did not violate the order which God gives to people at later time.

 

[Assyrian]

Exactly.

How is that 'exactly'?

Would it then confirm that God only let people eat green herbs before the Flood?

No more than I have set my bow in the heavens, perfect tense again, does not mean there were no rainbows before the flood. You find the same tense in verse Gen 9:6 ...for God made man in his own image.

We can not eat meat without also taking in some blood. If cooked meat (with blood in it) is acceptable, then cooked blood would also be fine. So, if pre-Flood people cooked their meat, they did not violate the order which God gives to people at later time.

Black pudding is kosher?

 

[juvenissun]

How is that 'exactly'?

No more than I have set my bow in the heavens, perfect tense again, does not mean there were no rainbows before the flood. You find the same tense in verse Gen 9:6 ...for God made man in his own image.


Black pudding is kosher?

The verse: Gen 9:3 (YLT) Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole; 4 only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat.

God has given people green herb. That is exact what I meant. God did not give people meat before the Flood. (My guess: fallen angels might have lured people to eat animals just before the Flood)

I love black pudding (in all forms) before I became a Christian. But I was frightened by my Christian mentor that I should not eat the pudding because the Bible says so. So I gave it up ever since. However, I always keep a question mark on it because what's said in Rom 14:14. Now I really think that having black pudding is OK. Based on the same reason, I think one should eat well-done steak only.

 

[metherion]

Evidence? It is clear that the Garden has a boundary. And the Garden is guarded by angels. An implication here is that angels, good or not good (but still obedient), can go in and out the Garden freely. Provided that I don't think Adam and Eve should be confined to the area of the Garden.

According the system I understand, there was death before the creation of Adam.

However, the boundary and any crossing of it by any being (man, beast, angel, even God Himself) is not mentioned until God drives Adam and Eve from Eden.

And, just a question. You say according to the system you understand, there was death before Adam, and thus death before the Fall. However, according to what you have said in previous posts, I ALSO gather you believe said death took place outside the Garden. So, my question is: why does it matter where the death was, if it did in fact take place before the Fall?

We can not eat meat without also taking in some blood. If cooked meat (with blood in it) is acceptable, then cooked blood would also be fine. So, if pre-Flood people cooked their meat, they did not violate the order which God gives to people at later time.

I would like to point out an aspect or two of this you may not have thought of.

1) If it is impossible to eat meat without taking in any blood, ever, then how did the Jews ever eat meat without violating it? For any Jew to ever eat any meat would have meant also eating blood and violating it. (besides, this may just be my lack of culinary expertise, but I thought if you cooked all the juices out of it you’d also get rid of any blood.)
2) The logic that if you cook something that contains a little X after trying to get all X out, it’s just fine to cook and eat X really doesn’t work. Blood in meat, no, just eating the blood isn’t fine, it’s commanded against by God. But draining the blood and getting every bit possible out, fine. I mean, apply the same logic to mercury and fish (fish has a level of mercury in it that is as low as possible for it to be ‘clean’ by the FDA standards, but since there is mercury in it cooking and eating mercury is fine. Doesn’t work), or rat feces and pasta (yep, you read it right. Apparently because of how it is harvested and processed, many of the impurities that are in the fields such as rodent droppings and insects and what-have-you get put into the big grain combine harvester things as they churn up the fields, and it can’t ALL be separated out, so there is actually bits in your pasta. Delicious, huh? But you wouldn’t straight up cook and eat rat feces). It just doesn’t follow.

Now I really think that having black pudding is OK. Based on the same reason, I think one should eat well-done steak only.

The closest I ever got to black pudding was blütvurst in Berlin, which was actually pretty darn good. And the reason I like my steaks medium well or well done is coz I like them actually WARM the entire time I eat them . I thought the prohibition was pretty much against drinking blood.

Metherion

 

[juvenissun]

But no guard was put on the garden until after the fall, and that was to keep Adam & Eve out. Nothing says the animals were to be kept out either before or after the fall.


I disagree with you about there being no animals in heaven. There will be all sorts of plants and animals, for the new creation would be less perfect than the old if it does not include all the good things that were part of the original creation. A heaven inhabited by only angels and humans would be a poor substitute for this world overflowing with all sorts of living creatures. Besides, God loves animals too. After all, God made them and cares for them.

If we accepted the idea that the Garden has a boundary, then there will be differences inside and outside of the boundary (otherwise, it means no real boundary). Of course, in that case, conditions inside the Garden will certainly be better than outside the Garden. In order to maintain the better conditions, there has to be a type of fence to prevent the mixing. I do not know what is the nature of the fence. But guardian angels seems to be a good idea. All the speculations are derived from the description that the Garden has a boundary.

There is another possibility: the Garden is separated from other part of the earth by an additional dimension, such as 3D versus 2D. (what I am really speculating is 4D versus 3D. Have you seen Stephen King's Langoliers? I love that one)

-----

I wish there will be animal in the Heaven too. But animal has no spirit. They probably will not have a new body either. I feel sorry for them. However, there might be many angels up there, who will "look like" earth's animals. May be that is why God makes animals on earth so we can get used to them. Did God say that angels will "help us" to manage His Kingdom? I might have an angelic assistant who looks like a dog.

 

[Jazer]

whether God (who is perfect) can create imperfection.

Perfect in the Bible means whole, complete and mature. Like a flower in full bloom.

 

[juvenissun]

Also, what is perfection? For some reason, many YECists seem to think this perfection includes no animals killing each other, roses not having thorns, etc.

As a Christian, you should know what perfection is.
If you still don't, I can tell you.

 

[Duckybill]

Also, what is perfection? For some reason, many YECists seem to think this perfection includes no animals killing each other, roses not having thorns, etc.

Because the curse is in effect. One day soon it will be removed, for the saved.

Isaiah 55:12-13 (NKJV)
12 "For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. 13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree, And instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree; And it shall be to the Lord for a name, For an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."

Isaiah 11:6-9 (NKJV)
6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

Revelation 22:3 (NKJV)
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

 

[Duckybill]

Will we have free will when we get to heaven being that there will be no sin?

In eternity the children of God will be righteous and the children of the devil will still be "unjust" and "filthy" burning in Hell.

Revelation 22:11 (NKJV)
11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."