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Putin's lapdog

Eryk

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Of course.
And you're free to start threads on the topics you've raised here. The topic of this one is Trump's connections to Putin. Changing the subject is a logical fallacy.
 
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Albion

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In this thread we are talking about Trump's connections with Putin.
Are we? What I read are allegations of unidentified connections and, of course, some doctored, photoshopped pictures that are supposed to bolster the claim. The DNC decides on its next ploy and all the devotees pick it up within hours.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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It is indeed ironic that Hillary is the one who made the first overt (and embarrassingly gushy) overtures to Putin as being our good friend...and now the Democrats are desperate to have everyone think that he's the Devil and Donald Trump is at fault for it all. :doh: If there ever was any question but that the Democratic Party's campaigning rests primarily upon the concept of "They'll believe anything" this is a topnotch example of it.
It's the typical hypocrisy and deflection we can expect from the corrupt DNC.

Here are a couple of photos showing Hillary being chummy with Putin:

Hillary and Putin 1.jpg
Hillary and Putin 2.jpg


And:
 
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LivingWordUnity

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And do we actually know that DNC to be corrupt? Oh, that's right.......... ;) There's that little matter of the evidence which we're supposed to put aside while we chase some fantasies about Russia.
It's an inconvenient truth to Democrats that the Hillary Clinton campaign is corrupt.
 
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Oafman

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I was aware they had met. When world leaders meet, they try to be outwardly civil, even when they don't get along. Diplomacy etc.

I'm no fan of Hillary, but these are just some pics of her, as Sec of State, meeting Putin. I don't understand what you're hoping we'll conclude from them.
In 2012, Obama (not knowing there's an open mic) said to Medvedev: "After my election I have more flexibility"
Every elected politician in the world has less flexibility on policy when they're running for re-election.
Obama criticized Romney for saying that Russia is a threat during US presidential election debates
Got a link? What was the context? Russia is clearly a threat, though it may not be hugely diplomatic for a president to put it in those terms.
Left-wing political pundits on MSNBC derided Romney for calling Russia a threat
Who cares?

This all just seems to be innuendo. And also, none of this suggests that the links between Putin and Trump, as outlined in the OP, are not strong. You can point out all you like that Obama and Hillary have had dealings with Russia, but it doesn't change the fact that Putin clearly wants Trump to win.
 
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Oafman

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The bullet points are linked.
Sorry, I missed the links. I think Obama's comments were dumb. Al Qaeda a bigger threat than Russia?! Where are AQ now?

But what of the rest of what I wrote? And what of the fact that none of this distances Trump from Putin?
 
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Oafman

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Decent writeup on this topic in Foreign Policy today:

Why Putin’s DNC Hack Will Backfire
The Kremlin has a track record of ineptitude when it comes to meddling in foreign elections. And this gambit against Hillary may not play out the way Moscow thinks it will.
It's probably paywalled, so you can read the whole thing underneath the spoiler button....

Why Putin’s DNC Hack Will Backfire
The Kremlin has a track record of ineptitude when it comes to meddling in foreign elections. And this gambit against Hillary may not play out the way Moscow thinks it will.

The hack of the Democratic National Committee’s email servers and the subsequent leak of embarrassing internal documents appear almost certainly to have been carried out by Russian intelligence agencies, making it the most serious case yet of Kremlin interference in U.S. politics.

That it is a serious interference is clear. The confirmation — long suspected by many in the Bernie Sanders camp — that at least some DNC officials were on Team Hillary over the course of the Democratic primary has divided the party on the verge of its nominating convention and alienated Sanders’s base. If it hasn’t convinced them to back Donald Trump, it’s at least given them second thoughts about voting for Clinton.

The move has also helped cement Russian President Vladimir Putin in the minds of many U.S. observers as not only a strategic mastermind, but also the Trump campaign’s secret weapon. Clinton, the thinking goes, is regarded in Moscow as a classic, hawkish “Russophobe.” (Putin even blamed her for instigating the protests against his alleged rigging of elections in 2011.) Whereas Trump — with his focus on business, his apparent willingness to put realpolitik over moral considerations, his admiration for Putin, and his disdain for institutions like NATO — has thoroughly won over the Kremlin, even spurring some to refer to him as Putin’s “de facto agent.”

With the DNC hack, according to this version of the story, Putin was just throwing a bone to his (soon-to-be) man in Washington.

It’s a good story — and many elements of it are true. There is much for the Kremlin to enjoy in sitting back and watching Trump’s continued, seemingly unstoppable rise to power.

But it’s also a little too tidy. Plenty of Russian foreign-policy insiders also appreciate that Trump’s volatility — currently wreaking havoc in U.S. presidential politics — could mean he’d make for an unpredictable and potentially problematic interlocutor for Moscow, too. As one told me, “Trump is good for Russia so long as he’s in America. God knows what would happen if he were in the U.N. or the Situation Room.”

In addition, when subjected to scrutiny, the Kremlin’s track record when it comes to staging interventions in foreign democracies doesn’t exactly scream “mastermind” so much as “bumbling meddler.” Russia is notoriously inept when it comes to predicting how the aftereffects of its interventions will play out; the chance that the DNC hack will backfire, as other attempts to interfere have in the past, is very real.

It’s worth keeping in mind that what the Kremlin really wants is not so much a Trump victory as a United States that is less united and less able to play a powerful global role. Thus, although the DNC hack may wind up helping out the Republican nominee, that may not have been its primary aim. Rather, the simple goal was likely generalized chaos.

A leitmotif of Russian political and information operations in Europe, including so-called “active measures” — that is, those, like the hack, carried out by the intelligence services — has been to spread division and disarray. Having realized it is unlikely to make any real or lasting friends, Moscow has instead turned its efforts into paralyzing and demoralizing its enemies. From secessionist movements to anti-globalization radicals, from ecological activists to social conservatives, every potentially divisive force is worth an approving interview on the government-funded television network RT or an invitation to a glitzy conference in Moscow. In more extreme cases, the Kremlin’s support may extend to open or covert funding.

There have been some such efforts in the United States, from support for the “Occupy” movement (ironic, for a government run by kleptocrats and embezzling .01 percenters) to more surreal efforts to back Texas secessionists.

However, with the DNC breach, Russia has distinctly upped its disarray game. The hack looks likely to make the U.S. presidential election even more of a mudslinging contest. Clinton has already begun charging that Trump is “Putin’s man”; this seems likely to push Republicans toward questioning Clinton’s honesty and patriotism all the more shrilly. The Trump camp, meanwhile, now revels in the confirmation that the Democratic primary actually appears to have been “rigged” in favor of Clinton — as they’ve been claiming all along. Even if Clinton becomes president, she’ll start with a reputation that is that much more problematic as a result of the leaks and a base that is that much more divided. Would such a White House be able to take bold steps to deter or resist Russian adventurism?

Finally, there is also the wider propaganda dimension to leaks that show a DNC leadership actively maneuvering to support “their” chosen candidate. One of the key aims of the Kremlin’s propaganda in general is not so much to convince people that the Russian government is in the right, but to persuade them that everyone else’s government is just as bad. Moscow must hope it can use this scandal and the ensuing fallout to convey the message that the Washington political elite are hypocrites and that U.S. democracy is every bit as “managed” as Russia’s.

So far, so good. But the Kremlin’s professional meddlers shouldn’t pat themselves on the back just yet.

Time and again, Putin has failed to appreciate the innate strengths and checks and balances of democratic societies and even the basic notions of how these countries work. Putin tends to assume, for example, that the people in democratic societies are easy to scare and easier to fool. In January, for example, pro-Moscow media outlets and social media tried their best to whip up ethnic tensions in Germany over the alleged rape by “Arab-looking” men of 13-year-old “Lisa F.,” a Russian-German girl from Berlin — at a time when anxieties over the influx of refugees from Syria and Iraq into Germany were running high. Russia’s main TV channel showed Lisa saying that she had been raped by “southern-looking” men; another report claimed that in Germany “residents are regularly raped by refugees.” It soon became clear that this was a false story: Lisa F. was simply seeking to hide activities from her parents. But Russian media and officials did not back down, accusing German authorities of trying to conceal what happened to her out of political correctness. Not only did this personally anger Chancellor Angela Merkel, but it also embarrassed the so-called “Putinversteher,” or “Putin Understanders,” in Berlin, who seek to advocate for better relations with Moscow.

The Kremlin has also made efforts to cow the Baltic states with an array of tools. Some have been heavy-handed: Moscow threatened military repercussions, for instance — up to and including the use of nuclear force— if any of the Baltics invited NATO troops onto their soil. And two days after U.S. President Barack Obama visited Tallinn to show solidarity, an Estonian security officer was kidnapped across the border by Russian commandos. That’s not exactly subtle. At the same time, Moscow has also backed Russian-speaking political parties in the region and engaged in other, more understated forms of manipulation. None of it has worked. It has only made the Baltics more alarmed about their eastern neighbor and more insistent about the need for allied protection. NATO battalions are now being deployed in every country in the region.

But perhaps most striking of all were Moscow’s efforts to create a pro-Russian insurrection in the Donbass in 2014 with money, men, and military support, based on the assumption that the Ukrainian government would quickly buckle and accept Russian suzerainty. Not only did Putin not anticipate the popular enthusiasm that saw volunteers rushing to do what the Ukrainian army could not; he also didn’t realize the dynamics were such that even if Kiev wanted to make a deal, it wouldn’t be able to. It could never survive the public backlash. Moscow’s efforts to keep Ukraine in its own backyard have since led to it being stuck in a war and slapped with economic sanctions.

The Kremlin’s efforts to influence the U.S. election and sow divisions may, in the short term, make a bad-tempered election year even more divisive. But moves like the DNC hack could well wind up hurting Trump if the label of “Putin’s man” can be made to stick. And, if so, that may cause the next White House to regard Putin’s government as even more of a danger than the present one already does and ensure that the sanctions regime will not only stay in place, but even be expanded.

Or Moscow might succeed in what many seem to believe is its aim: helping Trump all the way to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. In that case, Putin, the geopolitical gambler who has relied on being able to break the rules with impunity and on the restraint of the West, might suddenly find himself dealing with an American president every bit as willing to bluff and operate beyond the traditional limits — and with the economic, political, and military muscle of the world’s leading power behind him. Maybe the Kremlin ought to be careful what it wishes for.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Sorry, I missed the links. I think Obama's comments were dumb. Al Qaeda a bigger threat than Russia?! Where are AQ now?

But what of the rest of what I wrote? And what of the fact that none of this distances Trump from Putin?
Just because Trump said that Putin isn't so bad doesn't mean that there's a conspiracy going on between them. The Hillary campaign is desperately pointing the finger somewhere else instead of admitting that they did wrong. The DNC is trying to deflect, and it reinforces what the leaked emails revealed about the Hillary campaign.
 
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Eryk

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Just because Trump said that Putin isn't so bad doesn't mean that there's a conspiracy going on between them.

This isn't merely about remarks that Trump has made about Putin. Trump relies on Russian investors to buy his properties, and he says he will not sell anything if he is elected president. This is a massive conflict of interest.

Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager and top advisor, spent most of the last decade as top campaign and communications advisor to Viktor Yanukovych, the pro-Russian Ukrainian Prime Minister and then President whose ouster in 2014 led to the on-going crisis and proxy war in Ukraine. Yanukovych was and remains a close ally of Putin.

Trump's foreign policy advisor on Russia and Europe is Carter Page, a man whose entire professional career has revolved around investments in Russia and who has deep and continuing financial and employment ties to Gazprom, which, in turn, is part of Putin’s financial empire.

The Trump Camp was totally indifferent to the Republican Party platform, with one exception: They changed the party platform to eliminate assistance to Ukraine against Russian military operations in eastern Ukraine. Not incidentally, this is the single most important issue to Putin.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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I'd say it matters quite a bit if an unfriendly and expansionistic force is getting involved in our elections and clearly favoring a candidate. Particularly if they're doing so largely because they think the other candidate will be a patsie. Particularly if they're doing so in ways that are actually quite illegal. Like with Climategate, this is less about whistleblowing and more about muckraking - releasing not a handful of damning, powerful emails, but thousands of personal communiques in order to smear and slander those making them as much as possible.

Slander? As far as I'm aware, the authenticity of those emails in not in dispute. Let me also point out that the Russian did not release these emails, Wikileaks did. They originate from hackers who appear to be based in Russia. That hackers do illegal things is hardly news, nor should it be surprising that there are hackers active in Russia. Whether the e-mails were obtained illegally would absolutely matter if the question were whether to admit them as evidence in court. As far as what it tells us about the DNC, it matters not one whit - the emails are what they are, whether they were obtained legally or not.

Even if the Russian government was behind this,which as far as I've heard there's no evidence for - are we going to put Putin in for a Pulitzer Prize?
 
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Oafman

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Oafman

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Even if the Russian government was behind this,which as far as I've heard there's no evidence for - are we going to put Putin in for a Pulitzer Prize?
No, but we are going to wonder why he released this information to Wikileaks, and especially, why he released it now.
 
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Trump then addressed the rogue nation directly, saying “Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing.”

By actively hoping that American servers were hacked by another nation, Trump broke an unwritten but cardinal rule of American public office: You don’t root against the United States, even when your political opponent is in power.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-russia-hack_us_5798d1c8e4b02d5d5ed3b51a

Trump hates America.
 
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KCfromNC

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I was aware they had met.

I guess there has to be some way to spin Trump's complete lack of foreign policy experience as a plus. "He's never even met a foreign leader in an official capacity, that's how you know he'll be on America's side". Or something.
 
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Eryk

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