Purveyor of Confusion

[cvanwey]

Ok now I see you are referring to @thomas_t 's reactions.

False. You took a pot-shot towards me, when @thomas_t was responding to @John Helpher . You were both confused, as well as delivering an unwarranted insult. But I forgive you

I also told you I was only here for 2 points, one of them is about your comment on Muslims and can't remember what the other is.

This is also incorrect. You interacted and made plenty of other assertions. Post #98 you stated:

"No work is required, all you need to do is Faith in God, however your Faith in God is provided by God's grace."

But you would need to ignore Matthew 25:31-46, where Jesus separates by their works - (helping others).

You dismissed this, as a 'parable' and not a Commandment. Nice try there

*************

You also stated, in the very same post:

"You truely believe in the word of God and you will be saved"

Well, aside from Jesus, in other verse, pointing to being judged by how much one helps others, it is all revoked if blasphemy is performed anyways. See below...

To answer your question, you need to put it in context, as you can clearly see when Jesus say that blasphemy to him or the Father is forgivable, but to Holy spirit is not. So there is a clear difference between Holy Spirit and God the father.

It is like saying that if you insult my hand or my foot, it can be forgiven, but if you insult my head, it is not forgivable.

Even if I were to grant you all of this, if a Christian blasphemes the "Holy Spirit", then they are not ever forgiven. But yet, your statements above then conflict, via post #98 ("No work is required, all you need to do is Faith in God, however your Faith in God is provided by God's grace.") Or, ("You truely believe in the word of God and you will be saved").

Belief in God, committing to God, committing faith to God, repenting to god, performing works in God's honor, all NOT ENOUGH. Why? As soon as you slip, commit blasphemy, all revoked. This contradicts your claims that all you need is faith. Welp, looks like this is not all you need. Looks like you need to watch your tongue, or instead be forever punished; even if it is an accident.

 

[dcalling]

Please understand @thomas_t , I would guess all three of us agree about one key point - (you, @dcalling , and myself)... "You are either saved or unsaved". Whatever this criteria may be... In your presented case, you state Romans 10:9-10 is enough. Okay, an individual has either committed to Christ/Jesus/God/Lord/Holy Spirit/etc, in accordance with this verse; or not. Hence, if they fall short, they are still not saved. Hence, what I meant by having twelve groups, in that many varying groups could commit to varying degrees of Romans 10:9-10, but maybe not all of it... But if a human commits to the verse entire, saved. Right? Assuming the answer is yes, we can move forward.

My point is that 'blasphemy' overturns Romans 10:9-10. You stated, many posts back, that Romans 10:9-10 is enough. Well, if you adhere to Scripture, to blaspheme God/Lord/Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/what-ever-flavor or Pronoun you wish to invoke, all bets are off! Meaning, your statement of "Romans 10:9-10 being enough", is instead NOT enough. Blasphemy revokes, not only this verse, but all other claims to salvation.

I see this as a conflict (or) contradiction. See Below

Seems there does exist an unforgivable sin, prior to natural death -- (even as a professed Christian prior to natural death) ---> blasphemy.

Please reconcile/acknowledge that your prior statement, that "Romans 10:9-10 being enough", is not the case. Please acknowledge/reconcile, that if a true-blue Christian were to commit such an act; either by accident or a slip of the tongue, getting caught up in the heat of a moment, or other, that God's forgiveness has it's hard limits. And His hard limits are as follows....

If you take the "Lord's" name in vain, (whatever variant you wish to call 'Lord'), you are then forever hosed, or not granted access to Heaven, no-matter-what.



@thomas_t , this makes absolutely no sense. If the human is deemed not forgiven, stands to reason they are not welcome into Heaven.

I already answered and you ignored it. I copy paste below with minor modifications:

There are different types of blasphemy and only one is considered unforgivable. As you can clearly see when Jesus say that blasphemy to him or the Father is forgivable, but to Holy spirit is not. So there is a clear difference between Holy Spirit and God the father.

It is like saying that if you insult my hand or my foot, it can be forgiven, but if you insult my head, it is not forgivable.

EDIT: saw your second post so attaching answers here:

Post #98 you stated:

"No work is required, all you need to do is Faith in God, however your Faith in God is provided by God's grace."

But you would need to ignore Matthew 25:31-46, where Jesus separates by their works - (helping others).

If you truely are saved by God, you will be changed, and you will help the poor the needy when GIVEN the chance. Some people don't have this chance (the theif that died on cross with Jesus), and he was saved without work.

i.e. the Bible states faith without work is fake faith. So if you are a true believer, you will be moved by Holy Spirit to do the work stated. However those are not required (i.e. death bed conversions).

 

[cvanwey]

I already answered and you ignored it. I copy paste below with minor modifications:

There are different types of blasphemy and only one is considered unforgivable. As you can clearly see when Jesus say that blasphemy to him or the Father is forgivable, but to Holy spirit is not. So there is a clear difference between Holy Spirit and God the father.

It is like saying that if you insult my hand or my foot, it can be forgiven, but if you insult my head, it is not forgivable.

And as I already told you; even if I were to grant everything you stated as fact, the point of the matter is that God deems blasphemy, towards some part of Him, as unforgivable. This is what you are avoiding. This demonstrates direct conflict with, "all you need is faith." God deems this person forsaken forever, no-matter-what, in spite of faith/works/other. All bets are off, as soon as the Christian blasphemes. This is in direct conflict with Romans 10:9-10.

If you truely are saved by God, you will be changed, and you will help the poor the needy when GIVEN the chance. Some people don't have this chance (the theif that died on cross with Jesus), and he was saved without work.

Matthew 25:31-46 does not mention the necessity for faith anywhere. Whereas, Romans 10:9-10 does not mention anything about works anywhere. And yet, they are both speaking about the tenets for salvation - (pretty important stuff here I would reckon). Why is Matthew to be taken merely as conditional and/or provisional, while Romans 10:9-10 is to be taken as literal and that's all? They both speak about what is necessary for salvation. And yet, they both give conflicting criteria for salvation. One mentions faith, the other mentions works. Another conflict...

i.e. the Bible states faith without work is fake faith.

i.e. the Bible states faith without work is fake faith. So if you are a true believer, you will be moved by Holy Spirit to do the work stated. However those are not required (i.e. death bed conversions).

Okay, and as I've stated prior, Luke 14:25-33 asks the claimed faithful to give up all possessions. Why have you not done this? Maybe God deems your faith 'fake', if you do not attempt to do this..?

You have the chance to demonstrate your faith. When do you plan on giving up all possessions? And if you do not, how where you able to determine that Luke 14:25-33 does not apply to [you], and was less of a factor than Romans 10:9-10?

 

[dcalling]

And as I already told you; even if I were to grant everything you stated as fact, the point of the matter is that God deems blasphemy, towards some part of Him, as unforgivable. This is what you are avoiding. This demonstrates direct conflict with, "all you need is faith." God deems this person forsaken forever, no-matter-what, in spite of faith/works/other. All bets are off, as soon as the Christian blasphemes. This is in direct conflict with Romans 10:9-10.

That is different, it is my understanding (other might have other understanding) that to blasphme Holy Spirit, you have to be moved by it first, and still deny God. It is not a condition that is easily achievable. Else how come Jesus said blasphme God or him is fine?

It is very simlar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

Now do you understand? If not, which of the above you are still conflicting with?

Matthew 25:31-46 does not mention the necessity for faith anywhere. Whereas, Romans 10:9-10 does not mention anything about works anywhere. And yet, they are both speaking about the tenets for salvation - (pretty important stuff here I would reckon). Why is Matthew to be taken merely as conditional and/or provisional, while Romans 10:9-10 is to be taken as literal and that's all? They both speak about what is necessary for salvation. And yet, they both give conflicting criteria for salvation. One mentions faith, the other mentions works. Another conflict...

You do all things to God by faith, so even faith is not mentioned it is there. You won't claim God as lord without faith, as you can't see God.

Okay, and as I've stated prior, Luke 14:25-33 asks the claimed faithful to give up all possessions. Why have you not done this? Maybe God deems your faith 'fake', if you do not attempt to do this..?

You have the chance to demonstrate your faith. When do you plan on giving up all possessions? And if you do not, how where you able to determine that Luke 14:25-33 does not apply to [you], and was less of a factor than Romans 10:9-10?

No I did not, but If God ask me directly (as He did to the rich young man), then I will do it. The Christians might not do better things than non-christians, but given the chance they should do to those in need as mentioned, or the faith is fake.

 

[cvanwey]

That is different, it is my understanding (other might have other understanding) that to blasphme Holy Spirit, you have to be moved by it first, and still deny God. It is not a condition that is easily achievable. Else how come Jesus said blasphme God or him is fine?

It is very simlar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

Now do you understand? If not, which of the above you are still conflicting with?

Again, a Christian could have a momentary slip of the tongue, (or) have a moment of rage - (maybe if their child died tragically and the Christian lashed out at the believed Lord/Holy Spirit).

However you want to try and minimize the Biblical assertion, the Christian could still offend the Holy Spirit/other; as the human is imperfect, and may sometimes not be able to control their emotions. Or maybe even an accidental occurrence, which still offends the Lord/Holy Spirit eternally.

In such a case(s), blasphemy conflicts with stating 'faith is enough', or Romans 10:9-10. Blasphemy negates both faith and works. This is a direct conflict. Once blasphemy is performed, God will not allow the professed Christian into Heaven, no-matter-what, apparently. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough. Once the Spirit is offended, that's all folks. No going back... Do not pass-go.... No do-overs.... You are banished, apart from God, forever. Even if you profess, as in Romans 10:9-10.

You do all things to God by faith, so even faith is not mentioned it is there. You won't claim God as lord without faith, as you can't see God.

Again, Romans 10:9-10 mentions that faith is the path to heaven. Matthew 25:31-46 mentions that helping others is the path to heaven. Again, Romans 10:9-10 does not mention works. Again, Matthew 25:31-46 does not mention faith. Jesus is speaking about salvation; not something trivial. Very important stuff here....

Furthermore, you can have faith and not perform works, like in Romans 10:9-10. Alternatively, you can also help others daily, and not profess to Jesus as your Lord and savior Matthew 25:31-46.

How have you determined Matthew 25:31-46 has special additional conditions, but Romans 10:9-10 does not???

Hence, Romans 10:9-10 and Matthew 25:31-46 conflict.

No I did not, but If God ask me directly (as He did to the rich young man), then I will do it. The Christians might not do better things than non-christians, but given the chance they should do to those in need as mentioned, or the faith is fake.

Luke 14:25-33 is not speaking about a specific rich man here. The verse speaks about being a professed follower of Jesus. If you claim to have genuine faith, and not fake faith, Jesus is asking you, the proclaimed Christian, to give up your possessions.

So yes, Jesus has asked you directly apparently. Have you attempted to give up all your possessions to follow Him? If not, how are you so sure He is not referring to you? Maybe He deems you as having fake faith?

 

[thomas_t]

@thomas_t , this makes absolutely no sense. If the human is deemed not forgiven, stands to reason they are not welcome into Heaven.

here we disagree. It's my guess that you can be in heaven while not having been forgiven one or more sins.
This is at least how I reconcile Romans 10:10 being enough for salvation and the fact that there is the unforgivable sin.
Theoretically, you could do both: first commit the unforgivable sin and later apply Romans 10:10. This is my take on the issue.
If you are in heaven... and are not forgiven something... then you could be barred from entering New Jerusalem or else, for instance.

I also agree with @dcalling : in order for someone to blaspheme the Holy Spirit... you need to really first know what that is. So the threshold for being able to commit this sin... is at least accepting Jesus as a heavenly inspired person. At the same time, Christians won't commit this sin, I think. They won't slip in this area, I think, as @dcalling said.
What we are doing here... is rather discussing people at the brink of Christianity/faith like people who know who Jesus is... still not accepting him as Lord.
Why are we entertaining this debate here?

 

[dcalling]

Again, a Christian could have a momentary slip of the tongue, (or) have a moment of rage - (maybe if their child died tragically and the Christian lashed out at the believed Lord/Holy Spirit).

However you want to try and minimize the Biblical assertion, the Christian could still offend the Holy Spirit/other; as the human is imperfect, and may sometimes not be able to control their emotions. Or maybe even an accidental occurrence, which still offends the Lord/Holy Spirit eternally.

In such a case(s), blasphemy conflicts with stating 'faith is enough', or Romans 10:9-10. Blasphemy negates both faith and works. This is a direct conflict. Once blasphemy is performed, God will not allow the professed Christian into Heaven, no-matter-what, apparently. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough. Once the Spirit is offended, that's all folks. No going back... Do not pass-go.... No do-overs.... You are banished, apart from God, forever. Even if you profess, as in Romans 10:9-10.

As I stated again and again (I am copy pasting my previous answer below, with one added assertation):

It is my understanding (other might have other understanding) that to blasphme Holy Spirit, you have to be moved by it first, and still deny God. It is not a condition that is easily achievable. Else how come Jesus said blaspheme God or him is fine? Edit(Added): an accidental slip of tongue is very obviously does not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very simlar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

Now do you understand? If not, which of the above you are still conflicting with?

Again, Romans 10:9-10 mentions that faith is the path to heaven. Matthew 25:31-46 mentions that helping others is the path to heaven. Again, Romans 10:9-10 does not mention works. Again, Matthew 25:31-46 does not mention faith. Jesus is speaking about salvation; not something trivial. Very important stuff here....
Furthermore, you can have faith and not perform works, like in Romans 10:9-10. Alternatively, you can also help others daily, and not profess to Jesus as your Lord and savior Matthew 25:31-46.

How have you determined Matthew 25:31-46 has special additional conditions, but Romans 10:9-10 does not???

Hence, Romans 10:9-10 and Matthew 25:31-46 conflict.

I agree with you Romas 10:9-10 (or other verses) means faith IS the path to heaven when we are on earth.

Matthew 25:31-46, we are done with our way on earth, and God is judging us by our faith, and God is showing us exactly where our faith is, if it is on Him or something else. God is showing why some people claiming to have faith and yet has no faith, because their faith is dead. What's in Matthew is not special conditions, it is just examples God gave to show if you have faith, what the FURITE you should have got.

It is similar to, I declare if you are a good man, I will let you into my house. You came to me and claim you are good, but I point out you are a thief, there for I can't let you in.

Luke 14:25-33 is not speaking about a specific rich man here. The verse speaks about being a professed follower of Jesus. If you claim to have genuine faith, and not fake faith, Jesus is asking you, the proclaimed Christian, to give up your possessions.

So yes, Jesus has asked you directly apparently. Have you attempted to give up all your possessions to follow Him? If not, how are you so sure He is not referring to you? Maybe He deems you as having fake faith?

My bad I thought that was another passage.

Nope Luke 14:25-33 is not asking you to give up your possessions, it is asking that you should love the Lord with all (there for in comparsion dislike all in this world): Now there went with him great multitudes: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[cvanwey]

here we disagree. It's my guess that you can be in heaven while not having been forgiven one or more sins.

Okay. Let's follow down this path of logic and see where it takes us?

This is at least how I reconcile Romans 10:10 being enough for salvation and the fact that there is the unforgivable sin.

Okay?

Theoretically, you could do both: first commit the unforgivable sin and later apply Romans 10:10. This is my take on the issue.
If you are in heaven... and are not forgiven something... then you could be barred from entering New Jerusalem or else, for instance.

Does it say this in Scripture anywhere, or are you just making this up?

I also agree with @dcalling : in order for someone to blaspheme the Holy Spirit... you need to really first know what that is. So the threshold for being able to commit this sin... is at least accepting Jesus as a heavenly inspired person.

Like I already told both you and @dcalling ... A true Christian could have underwent severe tragedy, have a moment of weakness, and blasphemed God/Spirit/other. It happens, I would imagine.

At the same time, Christians won't commit this sin, I think. They won't slip in this area, I think, as @dcalling said.

Looks like you decided to go with the 'no true Scotsman fallacy' here...

You can't have your cake and eat it too @thomas_t . Please remember [your] position. You state Romans 10:9-10 is enough. What this would essentially mean, is that Jesus died for your sins. As long as you commit to faith in Him, and as your Lord and savior, and confess with your mouth to Jesus, repent and follow Him, 'this is enough'.

Thus, regardless of if you repent of every subsequent sin there-after or not, from that point forward, until the time you die a natural death, Jesus has already died for you and forgiven you as a sinner in general. As a Christian, you/others will still continue to lie, cheat, trespass, steal, kill, commit adultery, etc, while awaiting natural death. Hence, it would stand to reason the Christian could still blaspheme, as the true Christian is not perfect. And remember, the Bible mentions NONE of the <other> sins as unforgivable; --> only blasphemy.

What does the Bible also state about blasphemy?

"but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come."

Why is the part in red so significant? It also means 'eternally condemned' --- According to --- (This Age and the Age To Come - The Meaning of These Terms)

And if we look to other verses, which use the word 'condemned', it means - (not in a Heavenly realm)...(i.e.): "18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

In conclusion:

1. Yes, a true Christian can blaspheme the Holy Spirit; just like a true Christian can and will break any other Commandment. It's just that the Bible explicitly states blasphemy is not forgivable.

2. I'm not aware of any Biblical verse(s) which state that people whom blaspheme are still allowed into heaven, as long as they accept Christ?

3. If the Bible stated other sins were unforgivable, like murder, theft, trespassing, etc., then to state God will allow you into heaven anyways, after committing blasphemy, might hold some water? However, blasphemy is exclusive, and the later portion of Matthew 12:32 also seems to suggest that the 'next age', 'next realm', 'next arena' is not actually in heaven for such folks.

 

[cvanwey]

As I stated again and again (I am copy pasting my previous answer below, with one added assertation):

It is my understanding (other might have other understanding) that to blasphme Holy Spirit, you have to be moved by it first, and still deny God. It is not a condition that is easily achievable. Else how come Jesus said blaspheme God or him is fine? Edit(Added): an accidental slip of tongue is very obviously does not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very simlar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

Now do you understand? If not, which of the above you are still conflicting with?

Going in circles... I already addressed this. Let me try a differing approach...

Does a true Christian still sin? Of course they do? Does this true Christian realize that God hates all sin? Of course they do.

Again, blasphemy is no different than a lie, theft, trespassing, other, in that it is all sin to God. A true Christian can and will do it all, for various reasons - (because humans are perpetual sinners). Hence, the reason the human must adhere to Romans 10:9-10. And if the Bible did not mention blasphemy, apart, as being unforgivable, then we would have no conflict here (at least). But, the Bible does. Thus, we do have a conflict.

You and @thomas_t state Romans 10:9-10 is all that is necessary. Well, looks like the act of blasphemy, falls outside this criteria. Hence, this is a conflict.

I agree with you Romas 10:9-10 (or other verses) means faith IS the path to heaven when we are on earth.

Matthew 25:31-46, we are done with our way on earth, and God is judging us by our faith, and God is showing us exactly where our faith is, if it is on Him or something else. God is showing why some people claiming to have faith and yet has no faith, because their faith is dead. What's in Matthew is not special conditions, it is just examples God gave to show if you have faith, what the FURITE you should have got.

It is similar to, I declare if you are a good man, I will let you into my house. You came to me and claim you are good, but I point out you are a thief, there for I can't let you in.

No. Nowhere does Matthew 25:31-46 mention faith. That is my point. He mentions works, and says nothing of faith. And further still, Jesus tells all that this is the criteria for which He chooses the saved from the unsaved --> (to help others). You are attempting to add (faith) to these verses, which is clearly not there.

Seems as though, with the topic of salvation being so important and all, Jesus would want to be as crystal clear as possible. You seem to have absolutely no problem with the fact that Jesus mentions nothing of works in Romans 10:9-10. And yet, with Matthew 25:31-46, you want to shoe-horn 'faith' in there, when Jesus places no mention of it...?

In conclusion, we have a verse which states faith is the way to be saved. In another set of verses, helping others is how you are saved. Which one do you ignore???

My bad I thought that was another passage.

Nope Luke 14:25-33 is not asking you to give up your possessions

Yes it clearly does:

"33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples"

So when are you going to give up your possessions, to demonstrate you are a disciple/follower of Christ? And if you do not plan on it, how do you know Jesus is not referring to you?

 

[thomas_t]

What this would essentially mean, is that Jesus died for your sins. As long as you commit to faith in Him, and as your Lord and savior, and confess with your mouth to Jesus, repent and follow Him, 'this is enough'.

thank you for following me here.
This is really a special case.
When Paul said, he died for all our sins... that could mean he meant only the people of that age who were Christians... and noone committed the unforgivable sin back then.
If you really want to paint a contradiction here, you need to cite the particular verses and show where the contradiction is according to you. If you really "want" the contradiction, if I may, then we really need to know which is the text you're referring to.
If you're just recalling church sermons... the pastor does not take into account that anyone listening to him could earnestly commit the unforgivable sin... so he will cut the message to get the one of best use for the audience he is speaking to. Christians are no philosophers but craftsmen, to put it spiritually and in general terms.

1. Yes, a true Christian can blaspheme the Holy Spirit; just like a true Christian can and will break any other Commandment. It's just that the Bible explicitly states blasphemy is not forgivable.

2. I'm not aware of any Biblical verse(s) which state that people whom blaspheme are still allowed into heaven, as long as they accept Christ?

thank you for writing your post in numbers
concerning 1. ... this is your guess. The "true Scotsman fallacy" could actually not be a fallacy here. No Christian would honestly try to defy Jesus as the chief of the band. It's the definition of a Christian that they accept Jesus as Lord.
The rest does not. But Christians do.
But the moment they do... they would never say "oh, I am ruled by [I willingly censored the blasphemy out]!"
2. even if you are not aware, it still could be the case.
Even if there is no such Bible verse... in my opinion, God could have left it out for sake of brevity and not because it is false.

Does it say this in Scripture anywhere, or are you just making this up?

Yes I made that one scenario up. Just to show how I would reconcile this.

 

[cvanwey]

thank you for following me here.
This is really a special case.
When Paul said, he died for all our sins... that could mean he meant only the people of that age who were Christians... and noone committed the unforgivable sin back then.
If you really want to paint a contradiction here, you need to cite the particular verses and show where the contradiction is according to you. If you really "want" the contradiction, if I may, then we really need to know which is the text you're referring to.
If you're just recalling church sermons... the pastor does not take into account that anyone listening to him could earnestly commit the unforgivable sin... so he will cut the message to get the one of best use for the audience he is speaking to. Christians are no philosophers but craftsmen, to put it spiritually and in general terms.

In post #186, you stated "This is at least how I reconcile Romans 10:10 being enough for salvation and the fact that there is the unforgivable sin."

This means we seem to agree that God states to blaspheme the Lord/Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit/fill-in-your-pronoun, will NOT be forgiven.

And like I've stated, many times now, a Christian, whether it be 500 years ago, or yesterday, will sin. A matter of fact, true-blue Christians perform all kinds of continuous sin, regardless of how devout they are with their faith.

Romans states that to be saved, is to profess with your mouth to Jesus as the Messiah. In doing so, Jesus essentially PARDONS your past sins, and all future sin, as long as you continue to follow to the best of your abilities in earnest, in belief and faith.

Now that we have that established, if that were the end, okay, you have (some) type of argument. I guess....

BUT, Jesus makes an exception. He states if you blaspheme the "Holy Spirit", you are not forgiven. And we agree there. Hence, there exists an exception to salvation. Hence, to state that all you need is faith, is untrue. God, again, pardons all past and future unrepented upon or repented upon sin, EXCEPT blaspheme, as long as you adhere to Romans 10:9-10. HENCE, God does not include such a pardon, under the umbrella provided forgiveness-blanket.

THEREFORE, Romans 10:9-10 and Matthew 12:32 conflict. Matthew 12:32 states you will essentially not be forgiven in this realm, or the next. And the next 'realm' is likely not referring to Heaven; as demonstrated in my prior response

Please [now] reconcile that if you perform blasphemy, Romans 10:9-10 will likely not cover you.

concerning 1. ... this is your guess.

If you admit you don't even have verse to back up your claim, and you are merely guessing, then you are essentially conceding that you have absolutely no argument; unless wishful thinking somehow counts?

The "true Scotsman fallacy" could actually not be a fallacy here. No Christian would honestly try to defy Jesus as the chief of the band. It's the definition of a Christian that they accept Jesus as Lord.
The rest does not. But Christians do.
But the moment they do... they would never say "oh, I am ruled by [I willingly censored the blasphemy out]!"

No. Does a true Christian still sin? Of course they do? Does this true Christian realize that God hates all sin? Of course they do.

Again, blasphemy is no different than a lie, theft, trespassing, other, in that it is all sin to God. A true Christian can and will do it all, for various reasons - (because humans are perpetual sinners). Hence, the reason the human must adhere to Romans 10:9-10. And if the Bible did not mention blasphemy, apart, as being unforgivable, then we would have no conflict here (at least). But, the Bible does. Thus, we do have a conflict.

You and @dcalling state Romans 10:9-10 is all that is necessary. Well, looks like the act of blasphemy, falls outside this criteria. Hence, this is a conflict.

2. even if you are not aware, it still could be the case.
Even if there is no such Bible verse... in my opinion, God could have left it out for sake of brevity and not because it is false.

Then you must admit, again, you are making stuff up as you go. To my knowledge, the Bible mentions nothing about allowing 'Holy Spirit blasphemers' into Heaven anyways?

Yes I made that one scenario up. Just to show how I would reconcile this.

With all due respect, this is not productive. Please do not just make stuff up. I can do that too.

 

[dcalling]

Going in circles... I already addressed this. Let me try a differing approach...

Yes.

Does a true Christian still sin? Of course they do? Does this true Christian realize that God hates all sin? Of course they do.

Yes.

Again, blasphemy is no different than a lie, theft, trespassing, other, in that it is all sin to God. A true Christian can and will do it all, for various reasons - (because humans are perpetual sinners). Hence, the reason the human must adhere to Romans 10:9-10.

Yes

And if the Bible did not mention blasphemy, apart, as being unforgivable, then we would have no conflict here (at least). But, the Bible does. Thus, we do have a conflict.

It is impossible to blaspheme against Holy spirit for true believers. So there is no conflict. See reasons below.

You and @thomas_t state Romans 10:9-10 is all that is necessary. Well, looks like the act of blasphemy, falls outside this criteria. Hence, this is a conflict.

Yes we are going in circles. I am going to ignore everything else and focus on this one with you. Please read my post carefully, as I answered your question again and again.


(I am copy pasting my previous answer below, with one added assertation above):

It is my understanding (other might have other understanding) that to blasphme Holy Spirit, you have to be moved by it first, and still deny God. It is not a condition that is easily achievable. Else how come Jesus said blaspheme God or him is fine? Edit(Added): an accidental slip of tongue is very obviously does not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

 

[thomas_t]

you are not forgiven. And we agree there. Hence, there exists an exception to salvation.

you equate salvation and being forgiven all sins.
That's not necessarily the case.
As shown above.

have verse to back up your claim, and you are merely guessing, then you are essentially conceding that you have absolutely no argument;

No it's the other way round. You claim contradictaion. I'm making up a way to reconcile these two verses you see a contradiction in. If I can show you a way to reconcile these two verses providing a scenario... you're the one having nothing to show that the contradiction still exists despite there being at least one scenario that resolves all "contradictions", as made up as the scenario may ever be.
This scenario merely shows that you can't claim contradiction any more. That was my purpose during the entire thread.

I will continue to make up stuff when it serves to show you there is no conflict within the Bible.

Any Bible reader is entitled to use logic to reconcile two verses. Even by resorting to the use of a scenario unmentioned by the Bible. This is what I'm doing here.

Thomas

 

[cvanwey]

It is impossible to blaspheme against Holy spirit for true believers. So there is no conflict. See reasons below.

It is possible. See below...

Edit(Added): an accidental slip of tongue is very obviously does not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Yes you can. See below...

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

Not so. See below...

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

This response does is not consistent with the verses in question. The verses state "whomever speaks against". Not, "believers whom speak against", or, "believers whom instead rebel against"... Non-believers are included, as possibly insulting the Holy Spirit; by calling Him names, insulting Him, using His name in vain, other. You know, the classical definition of blasphemy we all recognize; including CF's own definition, as well as the 2nd Commandment. The verse states 'whomever speaks against Him' is/are deemed not forgiven eternally.

For you to state blasphemy against the Holy spirit cannot merely be to take His name in vain, issue an insult, or a slip of the tongue; but instead requires more, is a blank assertion. You need to demonstrate this assertion. And since there exists no 'footnotes' from these verses to reference other verse(s), you are left to read the verses, as written. You appear to be applying special pleading here; pure and simple...

Hence, your notion that to 'blaspheme' the Holy Spirit only involves true believers whom deliberately decide to rebel or defy, does not stand. But nice try.

*******************

Now you can address the three conflicts presented for you, thus far:

1. Romans 10:9-10 does not cover all. Matthew 12:31-32 conflicts. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough, as soon as you slip, take in vain, insult, other.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relied solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relied solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

3. Luke 14:33 tells would-be followers to give up all possessions to demonstrate their faith for Jesus. Why have you determined Jesus is not referring to you?

 

[cvanwey]

you equate salvation and being forgiven all sins.
That's not necessarily the case.

If you are going to dismiss everything I offer, with a simple hand-wave, and/or make stuff up, then this conversation will go nowhere. Please either address what I wrote, (and demonstrate why you believe it is not supported), or stop responding. I provided quite a bit in post #191. You can start there...

No it's the other way round. You claim contradictaion.

Yes I do. And for sake in brevity, just read my last response to @dcalling (post #194).

I will continue to make up stuff when it serves to show you there is no conflict within the Bible.

You can do this with any book. This method proves to be worthless, unless you wish to instead have a fruitful discussion? Anyone can perpetually move the goal posts.

Any Bible reader is entitled to use logic to reconcile two verses. Even by resorting to the use of a scenario unmentioned by the Bible. This is what I'm doing here.

Thomas

Sure, but it is actually logical, or you are instead inducing [ad hoc / post hoc] answers for comfort?

 

[thomas_t]

Anyone can perpetually move the goal posts.

I'm not moving goal posts.
There is no contradiction. If you say salvation equals being forgiven all sins... then I'll always respond that this can't be backed up by scripture. It's conjecture. Your conjecture.
It is allowed on a discussion board to state that a discussion partner has no scripture do back his allegations up.
This is not a foul, it's a valid opinion on what you're saying.


The moment salvation is not equal to being forgiven all sins.... there is no conflict at all between verses.

This is a scenario to show how there is no conflict between the verses you cited, so your claim concerning a contradiction is invalid, I think.

 

[cvanwey]

I'm starting to get less and less optimistic I reply to any/all of your statements, and you are hardly addressing any of them. I will refresh your memory after the response below.

I'm not moving goal posts.

When you flat out state you are making stuff up to, to make it fit, this is essentially what you are doing. Rather than address what is written, to instead apply unfalsifiable assertions, gets us nowhere....

There is no contradiction. If you say salvation equals being forgiven all sins... then I'll always respond that this can't be backed up by scripture. It's conjecture. Your conjecture.

It is allowed on a discussion board to state that a discussion partner has no scripture do back his allegations up.
This is not a foul, it's a valid opinion on what you're saying.

Then it's ALL conjecture @thomas_t . A lot of statements cannot be backed up by Scripture. You look at what the authors wrote, and how they define such assertions; and then apply common sense accordingly. You instead don't state... 'Well, the Bible doesn't give a specific Commandment or assertion about this or that. Hence, maybe it is okay?" No. You just assume this is not okay, if you think it's 'bad', in accordance with Matthew 7:12, or some other adjacent verse. We can only investigate what the Bible says, and what is the author's intent in the assertion(s). This is exactly what I'm doing.

We can't ask the the authors of their intent. They are long dead. I have also tried to consult with God for decades, but He seems to be perpetually too busy to answer.

The moment salvation is not equal to being forgiven all sins.... there is no conflict at all between verses.

This is a scenario to show how there is no conflict between the verses you cited, so your claim concerning a contradiction is invalid, I think.

Romans 10:9-10 states to profess to Jesus. In doing so, He will absolve, pardon, and forgive your original sin, your past sins, and all future sins.

The basic definition of salvation is as follows: "deliverance from sin and it's consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ." Deliverance means to be set free.

Once Romans 10:9-10 is performed, you are set free, set apart from, away from; all sin. Well, except if you perform blasphemy, in the incorrect specified way apparently.

Hence, you stating Romans 10:9-10 is enough, is false. It is overturned by blasphemy.

And God hates sin. Hence, the reason He provided a path for you to absolve yourself from it. It's called Jesus dying for your sins. When you adhere to Romans 10:9-10, you are no longer in sin. You can't be, as God does not allow sin in Heaven.

So again, if you can find a verse where God states He allows unresolved sinners in heaven, I'll be waiting to see it? But if you cannot find one, then it's safe to say, following all provided verse logically in the Bible, that God does not allow unforgivable sinners in heaven

****************

Now please address post 191, in whatever I did not address here. And further more, I extend post #194 to [you], as I'm am demonstrating 3 conflicts, thus far:

1. Romans 10:9-10 does not cover all. Matthew 12:31-32 conflicts. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough, as soon as you slip, take in vain, insult, other.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

3. Luke 14:33 tells would-be followers to give up all possessions to demonstrate their faith for Jesus. Why have you determined Jesus is not referring to you?

 

[dcalling]

It is possible. See below...



Yes you can. See below...



Not so. See below...



This response does is not consistent with the verses in question. The verses state "whomever speaks against". Not, "believers whom speak against", or, "believers whom instead rebel against"... Non-believers are included, as possibly insulting the Holy Spirit; by calling Him names, insulting Him, using His name in vain, other. You know, the classical definition of blasphemy we all recognize; including CF's own definition, as well as the 2nd Commandment. The verse states 'whomever speaks against Him' is/are deemed not forgiven eternally.

For you to state blasphemy against the Holy spirit cannot merely be to take His name in vain, issue an insult, or a slip of the tongue; but instead requires more, is a blank assertion. You need to demonstrate this assertion. And since there exists no 'footnotes' from these verses to reference other verse(s), you are left to read the verses, as written. You appear to be applying special pleading here; pure and simple...

Hence, your notion that to 'blaspheme' the Holy Spirit only involves true believers whom deliberately decide to rebel or defy, does not stand. But nice try.

*******************

Now you can address the three conflicts presented for you, thus far:

1. Romans 10:9-10 does not cover all. Matthew 12:31-32 conflicts. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough, as soon as you slip, take in vain, insult, other.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relied solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relied solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

3. Luke 14:33 tells would-be followers to give up all possessions to demonstrate their faith for Jesus. Why have you determined Jesus is not referring to you?

I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

 

[cvanwey]

I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

You did not address anything I wrote. You just keep repeating the same exact thing, for which I addressed exclusively. You are just ignoring all of it. Furthermore, are you not addressing my other points.

Thanks, anyways, I guess...

 

[dcalling]

You did not address anything I wrote. You just keep repeating the same exact thing, for which I addressed exclusively. You are just ignoring all of it. Furthermore, are you not addressing my other points.

Thanks, anyways, I guess...

I already addressed it, you just won't ready my message. Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

Addition: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).