Purveyor of Confusion

[thomas_t]

When you flat out state you are making stuff up to, to make it fit, this is essentially what you are doing. Rather than address what is written, to instead apply unfalsifiable assertions, gets us nowhere....

I flat out state that I am making up stuff to adress what you have claimed. This is allowed.
Example: you claim it is impossible to leave the house for reasons other than work. I make up another reason to leave the house. To visit the dentist maybe.
Here you say it is impossible to reconcile two verses, the one about salvation by faith alone and the one about the unfogivable sin. I make up a scenario in which both is possible at the same time. This is allowed to refute your claimed impossibility to find a way to reconcile these verses. Even if this scenario is not explicitely stated in the Bible, you are entitled to make it up and post it.
This is freedom of speech, Cvanvey.

Once Romans 10:9-10 is performed, you are set free, set apart from, away from; all sin. Well, except if you perform blasphemy, in the incorrect specified way apparently.

that's merely your interpretation of this verse... you didn't back it up by scripture.
I guess, salvation is rather being saved from hell.

The basic definition of salvation is as follows: "deliverance from sin and it's consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ." Deliverance means to be set free.

you didn't back this up by scripture. It's conjecture.
You say someone who has at least one sin that was not forgiven cannot enter heaven.
I say it's conjecture, since you didn't back this up by scripture.

I answered your post #191 in my subsequent answer to it.
Which aspect of it do you think I did not answer?

1. Romans 10:9-10 does not cover all. Matthew 12:31-32 conflicts. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough, as soon as you slip, take in vain, insult, other.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

3. Luke 14:33 tells would-be followers to give up all possessions to demonstrate their faith for Jesus. Why have you determined Jesus is not referring to you?

1. see above. You're, again, replacing salvation for being forgiven all sins. Matthew 12:31 does not teach that!
2. As I stated before: I don't ignore any of the verses.
As I said before: after conversion, converted Christians attend a church... and that church will take them along to their activities and then they will perform good works such as helping the poor.
3. I did not determine that Jesus is not referring to me.
Many times I had nothing, already. So I followed this order.
At the moment I own a notebook.
I can't sell it, I think, because I cannot work without it currently.

 

[cvanwey]

I already addressed it, you just won't ready my message. Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

Addition: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

Again, I addressed your repeated response, and demonstrated why you are likely imposing special pleading. But go ahead and continue avoiding. It seems to be working for you Along with continuing to avoid my other points, regarding conflicting tenets for salvation; as given by the author(s). If you should happen to change your mind at some point, or have a change of heart, feel free to actually address post #194....

If not, ta-ta...

 

[cvanwey]

I flat out state that I am making up stuff to adress what you have claimed. This is allowed.

I didn't say it is 'not allowed'. I stated it will not be productive. It will get us nowhere. I'm addressing what the verse(s) elude to. You state, huh-uh, likely because such interpretation would likely pose an uncomfortable conclusion for you.

This is freedom of speech, Cvanvey.

Who said anything about not having freedom?

that's merely your interpretation of this verse... you didn't back it up by scripture.
I guess, salvation is rather being saved from hell.

I already addressed this in post #188. Matthew 12:31-32 for starters...:

What does the Bible also state about blasphemy?

"but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come."

Why is the part in red so significant? It also means 'eternally condemned' --- According to --- (This Age and the Age To Come - The Meaning of These Terms)

And if we look to other verses, which use the word 'condemned', it means - (not in a Heavenly realm)...(i.e.): "18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Conclusion: So when Jesus was speaking, if He stated "in this age or the next age", while also speaking about sin, He's speaking about while on earth, or while in the next, which is not in heaven.

1. see above. You're, again, replacing salvation for being forgiven all sins. Matthew 12:31 does not teach that!

See above.

2. As I stated before: I don't ignore any of the verses.
As I said before: after conversion, converted Christians attend a church... and that church will take them along to their activities and then they will perform good works such as helping the poor.

This does not address my observation. Please address what I have observed in text.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

3. I did not determine that Jesus is not referring to me.
Many times I had nothing, already. So I followed this order.
At the moment I own a notebook.
I can't sell it, I think, because I cannot work without it currently.

I'm not concerned with what you have or do not have. But Jesus clearly states, in Luke 14:25-33, that you cannot be a follower, unless you give up all your possessions. The verses list nothing of exceptions or rationalizations. This is what you are doing... Maybe God sees you with no real faith. Maybe Jesus sees your current professed faith, as mere empty words.

 

[dcalling]

Again, I addressed your repeated response, and demonstrated why you are likely imposing special pleading. But go ahead and continue avoiding. It seems to be working for you Along with continuing to avoid my other points, regarding conflicting tenets for salvation; as given by the author(s). If you should happen to change your mind at some point, or have a change of heart, feel free to actually address post #194....

If not, ta-ta...

I already addressed it, you just can't seems to understand. I don't have time to read your post #xxx, you should do what I did (this also serves to let others who view the post know what we are talking about), copy past your points out

Read my post below, you have not even respond to my point #1.

#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

 

[cvanwey]

I already addressed it, you just can't seems to understand. I don't have time to read your post #xxx, you should do what I did (this also serves to let others who view the post know what we are talking about), copy past your points out

Read my post below, you have not even respond to my point #1.

#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

Have fun in your own little world.

ta-ta

 

[thomas_t]

"but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come."

Why is the part in red so significant? It also means 'eternally condemned' --- According to --- (This Age and the Age To Come - The Meaning of These Terms)

thank you for backing up your claims using sources.
Then the source is wrong, I guess. This Age and the Age To Come - The Meaning of These Terms is not Bible.

The Bible does not teach to constantly be deprived of personal belongings. I think your Luke 14:24-33 might be a one-and-done order.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

none. as I said... once you're a Christian, you go to church and the good works come next and Mt 25 applies to you, too.

Conclusion: So when Jesus was speaking, if He stated "in this age or the next age", while also speaking about sin, He's speaking about while on earth, or while in the next, which is not in heaven.

It's interpretation what you're doing here, equating next age and not in heaven is your interpretation. I guess it's wrong.

 

[dcalling]

Have fun in your own little world.

ta-ta

I give you a clear explanation, and this is what you got to offer. And if you can't counter you just quit

Below is my explanation, again:
#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

 

[cvanwey]

I give you a clear explanation, and this is what you got to offer. And if you can't counter you just quit

Below is my explanation, again:
#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

I give you a clear explanation, and this is what you got to offer. And if you can't counter you just quit

Below is my explanation, again:
#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

You are placing the cart before the horse. Hence, you cannot conclude what you are stating, until you demonstrate; which you have not. You have not identified what constitutes as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

If you are attempting to pin all your hopes and dreams, by differentiating 'everyone' and 'anyone', then you appear desperate They likely both mean the same thing here. The author's word choice is likely merely to avoid word redundancy, by use of synonyms for everyone and anyone.

"everyone" - every person
"anyone" - any person

Hence, not only could this verse pertain to non-believers, but, God does not define what blasphemy is in this specific context.?.?.? Seems if God was telling humans this specific action is unforgivable, and special conditions apply, He would not be so elusive, so ambiguous, so uninformed. Wow, the authors of this Book do appear to be the providers of confusion

Post #194 again please....

Recap, since you are too busy to read posts .

A. You are invoking special pleading, as explained in that post.

B. You have not demonstrated that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit excludes a slip of the tongue, temporary weakness of believers whom curse God for an experienced tragedy, etc...

And if you can do that, then I will take option 1. off the table. But until then....:

1. Romans 10:9-10 does not cover all. Matthew 12:31-32 conflicts. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough, as soon as you slip, take in vain, insult, other.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relied solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relied solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

3. Luke 14:33 tells would-be followers to give up all possessions to demonstrate their faith for Jesus. Why have you determined Jesus is not referring to you?

 

[dcalling]

You are placing the cart before the horse. Hence, you cannot conclude what you are stating, until you demonstrate; which you have not. You have not identified what constitutes as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

I did, I said multiple times that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is: "As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme)."

You just keep ignoring it.

If you are attempting to pin all your hopes and dreams, by differentiating 'everyone' and 'anyone', then you appear desperate They likely both mean the same thing here. The author's word choice is likely merely to avoid word redundancy, by use of synonyms for everyone and anyone.

"everyone" - every person
"anyone" - any person

As I told you again and again, they meant different things, otherwise why Jesus specificly said it is forigveble to blasphemy against God and him, but not Holy spirit? Would you please answer this question?

Hence, not only could this verse pertain to non-believers, but, God does not define what blasphemy is in this specific context.?.?.? Seems if God was telling humans this specific action is unforgivable, and special conditions apply, He would not be so elusive, so ambiguous, so uninformed. Wow, the authors of this Book do appear to be the providers of confusion

Post #194 again please....

Recap, since you are too busy to read posts .

A. You are invoking special pleading, as explained in that post.

B. You have not demonstrated that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit excludes a slip of the tongue, temporary weakness of believers whom curse God for an experienced tragedy, etc...

And if you can do that, then I will take option 1. off the table. But until then....:

1. Romans 10:9-10 does not cover all. Matthew 12:31-32 conflicts. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough, as soon as you slip, take in vain, insult, other.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relied solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relied solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

3. Luke 14:33 tells would-be followers to give up all possessions to demonstrate their faith for Jesus. Why have you determined Jesus is not referring to you?

Please answer my questions above to demonstrate that you read my answers and are capable of reasoning. Because my answers already answered your question. My other answers are posted below.

I give you a clear explanation, and this is what you got to offer. And if you can't counter you just quit

Below is my explanation, again:
#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

 

[cvanwey]

thank you for backing up your claims using sources.
Then the source is wrong, I guess. This Age and the Age To Come - The Meaning of These Terms is not Bible.

Why is it wrong? How do you know? Is this merely a hope, or a wish, or can you instead back that up? According to you, one needs to provide verse(s), and/or sources to support assertions.

Again, seems as though the verse eludes to the notion that if you commit blasphemy, your unforgiven sole, which resides in the next realm, is not a heavenly one.

The Bible does not teach to constantly be deprived of personal belongings. I think your Luke 14:24-33 might be a one-and-done order.

The verse is addressing would-be followers. I assume you claim to be a follower? Jesus did not provide a specific context, for a specific situation or time. Hence, how were you able to discern this verse is a one-and-done command? How do you know this is not pertaining to you?

none. as I said... once you're a Christian, you go to church and the good works come next and Mt 25 applies to you, too.

Your response does not address my direct question. Let me try to simplify...

Romans 10:9-10 states (THE WAY) to be saved, is by faith, and speaks nothing about necessary works.
Matthew 25:31-46 states (THE WAY) to be saved, is by helping others, and speaks nothing about the necessity for faith.

There exists a conflict. Both passages state (THE WAY) to be saved is this (or) that. Two different authors give conflicting criteria. At least one of them is likely not required.

Which one do you dismiss as being mandatory, even though they both assert being mandatory for being saved?

 

[cvanwey]

I did, I said multiple times that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is: "As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme)."

You just keep ignoring it.

I responded to this loooong ago sir... For which I then asked (paraphrased)...

1. Is it possible for a true-blue Christian believer to curse God for 'taking away their child in tragedy'?
2. Is it possible for a true Christian to have a moment of weakness, and speak against God?

I seem to remember you stating it is NOT possible. And if memory serves me correctly, you were never able to provide a suitable reason, as to why..?

And another note, for which I already addressed, long ago...

If it is not possible for Christians to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and non-believers/other cannot blaspheme the Holy spirit, because they are not believers, then one has to ask...

Why are the verses even in the Bible?

Who exactly IS the target audience?

*****************************

Now maybe you can address the following:

1. Romans 10:9-10 does not cover all. Matthew 12:31-32 conflicts. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough, as soon as you slip, take in vain, insult, other.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

3. Luke 14:33 tells would-be followers to give up all possessions to demonstrate their faith for Jesus. Why have you determined Jesus is not referring to you?

 

[thomas_t]

Why is it wrong? How do you know? Is this merely a hope, or a wish, or can you instead back that up? According to you, one needs to provide verse(s), and/or sources to support assertions.

no, I said I guess it's wrong. It's a guess.
But it's a fact that your source wasn't Bible. Among Christians, we say: Bible only please.
If this source can't back their allegations up using scripture... it's worthless posting it, I think.
I'm not stating you're bound to be wrong, though.
I'm merely stating it needs more to back things up by scripture.
A page about scripture is not the same as scripture, that was my point.

Romans 10:9-10 states (THE WAY) to be saved, is by faith, and speaks nothing about necessary works.
Matthew 25:31-46 states (THE WAY) to be saved, is by helping others, and speaks nothing about the necessity for faith.

There exists a conflict. Both passages state (THE WAY) to be saved is this (or) that. Two different authors give conflicting criteria. At least one of them is likely not required.

Which one do you dismiss as being mandatory, even though they both assert being mandatory for being saved?

It's like saying:
1. the way to go to Venice is by ship only
2. the way to Venice is via Veneto
Both sound contradictory... but it's right at the same time.

Faith does not exclude works. They are not mutually exclusive.

The verse is addressing would-be followers. I assume you claim to be a follower? Jesus did not provide a specific context, for a specific situation or time. Hence, how were you able to discern this verse is a one-and-done command? How do you know this is not pertaining to you?

Let me turn the question: how do you know it is NOT a one-and-done thing?
Again, we need to know who the onus is on. Once you claim every Christian must always give up everything they have (I'm not sure if you did, though), the onus is on you to show..

 

[dcalling]

I responded to this loooong ago sir... For which I then asked (paraphrased)...

I responded to this long time ago too, and you refused to see .....

1. Is it possible for a true-blue Christian believer to curse God for 'taking away their child in tragedy'?

It is possible for people who CLAIM to be Christians to curse God (or before they truly be saved). But it is my believe that real Christians won't curse God.

2. Is it possible for a true Christian to have a moment of weakness, and speak against God?

I seem to remember you stating it is NOT possible. And if memory serves me correctly, you were never able to provide a suitable reason, as to why..?

Speak against God is different than curse God. If I spoke something that is not true in the way of God, that is sort of against God.

As to why, real Christians know all is from God, and even if God takes loved ones (or ourselve) away from this world, it is for the good of us. This world is a temporary place and we are all just passing by (i.e. this is the real meaning of "giving up all possessions" in Luke 14:33

And another note, for which I already addressed, long ago...

If it is not possible for Christians to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and non-believers/other cannot blaspheme the Holy spirit, because they are not believers, then one has to ask...

Why are the verses even in the Bible?

Who exactly IS the target audience?

It is my believe that this verse is for those fallen angles, who truly know God but yet choose to rebel against God and come to deceive us.

The target audience is still us, it is to let us know why real evil won't be forgiven (there is no repent as they already know God, unlike us humans who don't know God).

*****************************

Now maybe you can address the following:

1. Romans 10:9-10 does not cover all. Matthew 12:31-32 conflicts. Hence, faith is not enough. Nothing is enough, as soon as you slip, take in vain, insult, other.

I already answered them many times. Where is the conflict? I repeatly told you true believers or non-believers can't blasphemy against Holy Spirit, you choose to ignore and claim conflict.

2. Romans 10:9-10 conflicts with Matthew 25:31-46. Why? The verse in Romans states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon faith, and does not mention works. Matthew states your criteria for salvation relies solely upon helping others, and does not mention faith.

Which verse(s) do you ignore?

I already answered them many times. I repeatedly told you work is a manifestation of faith. The thief who died on cross likely did none of what Matthew 25:31 said, and yet he is saved. Christianity is not about works, it is about faith, the theif on cross is the example.

3. Luke 14:33 tells would-be followers to give up all possessions to demonstrate their faith for Jesus. Why have you determined Jesus is not referring to you?

who should I give up my possessions to? another human being??!! That is definitely not what God wants. What Jesus meant here is you should not value your possessions over God.




Below are my explanations, again:
#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

Because if you can't get your logic straight, there is no point discussing anything else, you will just simply evade logic.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

 

[cvanwey]

no, I said I guess it's wrong. It's a guess.
But it's a fact that your source wasn't Bible. Among Christians, we say: Bible only please.
If this source can't back their allegations up using scripture... it's worthless posting it, I think.
I'm not stating you're bound to be wrong, though.
I'm merely stating it needs more to back things up by scripture.
A page about scripture is not the same as scripture, that was my point.

How can I use another Bible verse to explain a specific Bible verse in question?.?.? That makes no sense. I'm telling you what educated Christians translate, of (this) verse. You simply state nuh-uh, as your chosen method of rebuttal.

When reading the verse, it looks to elude to God telling blasphemers, that when they ascent to the next realm, in their unforgiven sin, it is not going to be the heavenly realm.

And if you disagree, then this further demonstrates the title of my thread, 'provider of confusion.' This is a very important topic - (the claim of being eternally sent away from God forever for an unforgivable sin). And with something so 'important', seems as though God did not convey a clear enough message for all readers to understand. Which is quite odd, as God seems to be pretty darn clear when He wants to be, even for topics far less 'important.'

It's like saying:
1. the way to go to Venice is by ship only
2. the way to Venice is via Veneto
Both sound contradictory... but it's right at the same time.

Faith does not exclude works. They are not mutually exclusive.

Your explanation is a false analogy.

Romans 10:9-10 = faith, no mention of works
Matthew 25:31-46 = works, no mention of faith

Both authors give the way to salvation. If you read one, then the other, you get confused. You see conflict. One verse tells you the path to heaven. The other one also tells you the path for salvation.

Your first follow up question becomes... "Hey Jesus, which one is it?"

And to answer your claim that 'they are not mutually exclusive.' --- Faith can exclude works (i.e.) earnest death bed conversions, as one example. And on the flip side, you can have works without faith. You can work for the Peace Corps, volunteer at homeless shelters, give generously to the poor, etc, while not believing in Jesus.

Let me turn the question: how do you know it is NOT a one-and-done thing?

Because in this verse, it is not addressing one person, like in other verses. I selectively chose this passage, as it looks to be addressing the general audience, as He is giving instructions to would-be followers.

If I had listed Matthew 19:21, or some other adjacent verse, then you may have a leg to stand upon (i.e.) 'one-and-done.' But in Luke 14:25-33, Jesus looks to be addressing would-be followers.

Thus, I ask again... How are you so sure you are excluded from this request?

Again, we need to know who the onus is on. Once you claim every Christian must always give up everything they have (I'm not sure if you did, though), the onus is on you to show..

I did not say that. I'm asking why you are excluded from this request, via Luke 14:25-33?

 

[cvanwey]

It is possible for people who claim to be Christians to curse God (or before they truely be saved). But it is my believe that real Christians won't curse God.

And as I told you before, using the 'No True Scotsman fallacy" here does not seem to justify your response. --- That would be like stating a 'real Christian' would never lie, steal, trespass, commit adultery, etc...,

Again, you don't think that Christians have cursed God in times of extreme tragedy, extreme unexplained loss, etc??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Speak against God is different than curse God.

Ask 10 Christians as to the definition of blasphemy, and you will likely get 10 differing definitions.

Heck, your own rendition seems to even differ from CF's definition....?

Furthermore, God Himself does not seem to clearly define the parameters of the term. And yet, it seems to be a rather large offense.

This again demonstrates my point of this thread. The authors of the Bible seem to be the purveyor's of confusion.

It is my believe that this verse is for those fallen angles, who truly know God but yet choose to rebel against God and come to deceive us.

The target audience is still us, it is to let us know why real evil won't be forgiven (there is no repent as they already know God, unlike us humans who don't know God).

I disagree. You have three distinct verses in the Bible. Seems as though those verses are directed and/or intended for the readers of the Bible; giving readers direct instruction of what NOT to do.

I already answered them many times. Where is the conflict? I repeatly told you true believers or non-believers can't blasphemy against Holy Spirit, you choose to ignore and claim conflict.

Again, then it is unnecessary to list this as an unforgivable sin, since no one can commit such an offense. Again, the verses look to be directed at the readers of the Bible; and giving them instruction of what not to do.

I already answered them many times. I repeatedly told you work is a manifestation of faith. The thief who died on cross likely did none of what Matthew 25:31 said, and yet he is saved. Christianity is not about works, it is about faith, the theif on cross is the example.

I feel you are still missing my point. The point being you have two Bible authors, whom give completely differing criteria for salvation.

Sure, the 'thief of the cross' is one. But then you have Matthew 25:31-46, whom tells recipients that He is going to separate the saved/unsaved by their deeds, and their deeds alone. And does not mention faith. The author gives the conclusion that you are solely judged, based upon helping others. And yes, in other verses, it states the criteria is faith.

My point is differing authors give differing ultimate criteria. Again --- "purveyor of confusion.'

who should I give up my possessions to? another human being??!! That is definitely not what God wants. What Jesus meant here is you should not value your possessions over God.

Burn them for all I care...

My question still stands... HOW were you able to discern that Jesus is not referring to you, when He asks followers to give up all their possessions? And no, I doubt it is a metaphor for instead stating to not place any importance upon them

*************************

I feel we are starting to go backwards. I just regurgitated all answers.

 

[thomas_t]

I think it makes great sense to let Bible interpret itself.
Each interpretation of a verse, unless it is clear in a literal manner what is meant, needs to be backed up by another scripture verse, I think.
This is the only method to proceed that makes great sense.
It is better than trusting in human authorities as to know what makes sense and what does not.

(the claim of being eternally sent away from God forever for an unforgivable sin)

Again, that's your claim. And the claim from the source you cited. That's it. It's not scripture you can base this claim on.
Even if to you, your claim seems a little bit to look like it was true.
No, God is no provider of confusion. You make conclusions that shouldn't be made, in my opinion, and subsequently seem to be ending up confused, that's all.
I mean: nothing against you, everyone is entitled to make provocative remarks here.

Romans 10:9-10 = faith, no mention of works
Matthew 25:31-46 = works, no mention of faith

Romans 10:9-10 is about salvation of individuals.
It's by faith alone.
Matthew 25:31, in contrast, is about salvation of groups. Groups can't believe in ther hearts because they don't have any. Thus the works are for salvation of groups such as churches. (This is just my interpretation of these verses)

Because in this verse, it is not addressing one person, like in other verses. I selectively chose this passage, as it looks to be addressing the general audience, as He is giving instructions to would-be followers.

I recall this verse to be directed to one person only. But even if you were to be right and it is directed to more... this doesn't show it is not a one-and-done request.
But I appreciate you being precise in how you think.

I did not say that. I'm asking why you are excluded from this request, via Luke 14:25-33?

No, I don't consider myself as excluded from this request.
as I said, I guess it's a one-and-done request.

 

[dcalling]

And as I told you before, using the 'No True Scotsman fallacy" here does not seem to justify your response. --- That would be like stating a 'real Christian' would never lie, steal, trespass, commit adultery, etc...,

That is not what I said. I clearly said blasphemy against Holy Spirit is different, it needs to be a calculated move, see below (the section that you just won't read)

Again, you don't think that Christians have cursed God in times of extreme tragedy, extreme unexplained loss, etc??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Correct. Got any counter examples

Ask 10 Christians as to the definition of blasphemy, and you will likely get 10 differing definitions.

You ask 10 people of any word they will give you different answers.

Heck, your own rendition seems to even differ from CF's definition....?

Who defines which one is correct?

Furthermore, God Himself does not seem to clearly define the parameters of the term. And yet, it seems to be a rather large offense.

This again demonstrates my point of this thread. The authors of the Bible seem to be the purveyor's of confusion.

Again, you are confused. It is simple logic, A and C are different and you keep want to make them the same.

I disagree. You have three distinct verses in the Bible. Seems as though those verses are directed and/or intended for the readers of the Bible; giving readers direct instruction of what NOT to do.

Faith will produce works, work does not produce faith.

Again, then it is unnecessary to list this as an unforgivable sin, since no one can commit such an offense. Again, the verses look to be directed at the readers of the Bible; and giving them instruction of what not to do.

That is why it only happened once in the Bible.

I feel you are still missing my point. The point being you have two Bible authors, whom give completely differing criteria for salvation.

Sure, the 'thief of the cross' is one. But then you have Matthew 25:31-46, whom tells recipients that He is going to separate the saved/unsaved by their deeds, and their deeds alone. And does not mention faith. The author gives the conclusion that you are solely judged, based upon helping others. And yes, in other verses, it states the criteria is faith.

My point is differing authors give differing ultimate criteria. Again --- "purveyor of confusion.'

Burn them for all I care...

My question still stands... HOW were you able to discern that Jesus is not referring to you, when He asks followers to give up all their possessions? And no, I doubt it is a metaphor for instead stating to not place any importance upon them

*************************

I feel we are starting to go backwards. I just regurgitated all answers.

Jesus is referring to me, i.e you can't value your possessions over God. God just didn't tell me to give up all my possessions to you, you youself said you don't care



================= OLD POST YOU REFUSED TO READ REPOSTED ==============
Below are my explanations, again:
#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

#2. Faith produces work, but work does not necessarily produce faith. So Bible states Faith is the key to heaven.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

 

[cvanwey]

I think it makes great sense to let Bible interpret itself.
Each interpretation of a verse, unless it is clear in a literal manner what is meant, needs to be backed up by another scripture verse, I think.
This is the only method to proceed that makes great sense.
It is better than trusting in human authorities as to know what makes sense and what does not.

I don't think you are picking up what I was putting down here I'm telling you that when you read a particular verse, you interpret it. To make sure you are interpreting that verse somewhat correctly, you go to other sources, whom are educated to tell you what this verse means. If it aligns with your own interpretation, there's a better chance you are interpreting that verse correctly.

In such a case for Matthew 12:32, when the verse states "anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come", it's highly likely the author means that the 'next age to come', does NOT mean in heaven.

Again, that's your claim. And the claim from the source you cited. That's it. It's not scripture you can base this claim on.
Even if to you, your claim seems a little bit to look like it was true.
No, God is no provider of confusion. You make conclusions that shouldn't be made, in my opinion, and subsequently seem to be ending up confused, that's all.
I mean: nothing against you, everyone is entitled to make provocative remarks here.

Yes, the authors of the Bible do provide confusion. We do not agree about where the Bible states you go, if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost. Many educated Christians side with me. Many may not. This is confusion. The Bible is riddled with them. I have only brought up three thus far, and we have not reached any resolve with any of them. Nor will we likely. Furthermore, did you happen to notice how many denominations, in Christianity alone, exist? Did you happen to realize many of these individual sects conclude differing interpretations, when reading verse(s)?

It may seem trivial for some verses.... However, when it comes to salvation, seems odd that God remains ambiguous for something so 'important', when He appears perfectly capable of being crystal clear.

Romans 10:9-10 is about salvation of individuals.
It's by faith alone.
Matthew 25:31, in contrast, is about salvation of groups. Groups can't believe in ther hearts because they don't have any. Thus the works are for salvation of groups such as churches. (This is just my interpretation of these verses)

Okay, you are still not getting it. Let's rewind a bit...

I asked you, in the beginning, what is the path to salvation? You stated, "Romans 10:9-10 is enough".

Okay, great.

I now ask another Christian for the path to salvation, and he/she cites "Matthew 25:31-46 is enough". And when I follow up to ask him/her to back up this assertion, they give me many other verses from the Bible which support this assertion.

A perfectly good case can be made for either conclusion, (faith or works) - (independently and individually). And as I stated prior, one does not need the other. You can have faith with no works. You can perform many works, with no faith.

I recall this verse to be directed to one person only. But even if you were to be right and it is directed to more... this doesn't show it is not a one-and-done request.
But I appreciate you being precise in how you think.

You are 100% incorrect.

The Cost of Being a Disciple
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.


28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Please reconcile the verse(s), as it appears pretty axiomatic.

The passage is telling would-be followers of Jesus, what they must do to become a true follower.

Hence, I again ask you...

How do you know Jesus is not referring to you?

 

[cvanwey]

That is not what I said. I clearly said blasphemy against Holy Spirit is different, it needs to be a calculated move, see below (the section that you just won't read)



Correct. Got any counter examples



You ask 10 people of any word they will give you different answers.



Who defines which one is correct?



Again, you are confused. It is simple logic, A and C are different and you keep want to make them the same.



Faith will produce works, work does not produce faith.




That is why it only happened once in the Bible.



Jesus is referring to me, i.e you can't value your possessions over God. God just didn't tell me to give up all my possessions to you, you youself said you don't care



================= OLD POST YOU REFUSED TO READ REPOSTED ==============
Below are my explanations, again:
#1: Your logic: since A->B, C must ->B. Where you Associated A and C together, and I am telling you A and C are different.

here A is Blasphemy against God, and C is Blasphemy against Holy Spirit. And I am out of ideas how to get your logic straight.

#2. Faith produces work, but work does not necessarily produce faith. So Bible states Faith is the key to heaven.

My message is posted below:
I already addressed it, you are just not paying attention.....

If you are not a believer, you can't blaspheme against Holy Spirit, because you don't have any one you. Holy Spirit has not even moved you yet, how do you blaspheme against it? God already added a foot note, Mat 12:30 And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." It is clear blasphemy against Holy spirit is different than blasphemy against God.

My original post (the last part)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a calculated move, that you have tasted heaven, known God, and moved by the HolySpirit, and yet still insult the Holy Sprit (i.e. what Satan does, deliberately twist and lie to us what God's intentions are, when Holy spirit has made it clear).

It is very similar as saying: you can say bad things about me, but after I helped you and you know my character, you still lie about me, then I won't forgive you.

As I understood blaspheme, after you known God, and still intentionally say things that twist God's character, that is blaspheme against Holy Spirit (other are just simply blaspheme).

It seems, with you, we only go backwards, or sideways, and not forwards. Furthermore, some of your responses do not even correlate/correspond with the question(s)/comment(s) appropriately.

I appreciate you taking the time and all, but this is going nowhere perpetually.

Thanks all the same...

 

[thomas_t]

To make sure you are interpreting that verse somewhat correctly, you go to other sources, whom are educated to tell you what this verse means. If it aligns with your own interpretation, there's a better chance you are interpreting that verse correctly.

I'm proceeding this way:
To make sure you are interpreting that verse somewhat correctly, you go to other scripture verses, whom are educated to tell you what this verse means. If it aligns with your own interpretation, there's a better chance you are interpreting that verse correctly.

There is no confusion, I think a provided ways to resolve your three "contradictions".

Bible is it's own best interpretor. Scripture interprets scripture.

it's highly likely the author means that the 'next age to come', does NOT mean in heaven.

according to you.

A perfectly good case can be made for either conclusion, (faith or works) - (independently and individually).

the one way applies to individuals... the other to groups.
It is as I said, I think.

Hence, I again ask you...

How do you know Jesus is not referring to you?

Hence I tell you again: Jesus was referring to me... as a one-and-done request, I guess.
Jesus made it clear that in order to become a disciple... you need to give up everything. I think it's a one-and-done measure. There are examples in the Bible of followers of Jesus who were rich, Abraham followed him, for example.
But I suppose... at one point in his life... also Abraham had to give up everything he had, too.